All right guys

[Jona]

I just downloaded Mozilla. I still have... very little space on my hard drive, but I'll have it upgraded while I'm on vacation--which is this Thursday! (YAAY!!! :)) I now have IE6, NS6.02, and Mozilla 1.3.1. I will get Netscape 4.7, Opera6.02, Opera7 and Netscape 7.02 when I get my hard drive updated (and more probably!).

I've looked at many sites with all of these browsers. I think IE still looks be cleanest to me (maybe I'm too used to it?). I actually am surprised to find that I like Mozilla even though its setup is just like Netscape! When I use Netscape6.02, I find that the way it formats documents doesn't look too good to me. I've used Netscape7, although I don't have it, and found that, in my opinion, it is worse than Netscape6!

All right, now once I get these browsers, I will be testing and setting up my sites much more compatible with all browsers. Hopefully I will be able to get rid of all versions of Netscape soon.. I know it will be a while before it's gone for good, but hopefully we can start moving in that direction.

I'd like to know what you people think of Opera6 and Opera7, and if you have an screen shots of any sites in them (in comparison with IE, or NN, or Moz). I'd like to see what Opera looks like.

I'd also like to give my gratitude to all of you who have helped me--especially Charles. The critic who gives us W3C documentation and shoves it down our throats. ;) (But hey, he does it very well and it's helped me a lot so I'm not complaining at all!) I'd also like to thank Pyro, Khalid, AdamBrill, Dave Clark, and a few others. (Note: don't feel left out because you don't know if I've got your name on the "list of credits" or not. ;))

I've looked at the documents at http://mozilla.org/ and find that the browser is extremely good. I think that it should be second to Internet Explorer when Netscape is completely gone (although, I haven't used Opera so I might change my mind, but I think I'm pretty glued to this browser lol).

Jona

[khalidali63]

Hey Jona,I think its strange that you don't like NS6+ an yet you do like Mozilla...???
NS6+ browsers are based on mozilla.The major difference between Mozilla and NS6+ is the Skin( mainly) all the functionality in regards to JavaScript/CSS/DOM is 100% Mozilla based.
If you want to see a good site for comparision.Just view W3C site using Mozilla(or NS6+ for that matter) and IE you will be amazed to witness the crappiness of IE.
IE is popular? yes,no question about it, only because of windows monopoly on desktop PC market.

Opera I guess is allright browser,but you will find allots of people who say its a IE wanna be..so I rest my case there..
Anyways welcome to the world of Mozilla...
Here is cool link you can find tonnes of skins for your Mozilla1.3.1

My fav has been Lo-Fi Classic for longest time..

http://themes.mozdev.org/

[Jona]

Cool, man. ;) The reason I don't like Netscape is because the way it operates. There's just something different about it... I don't know how to explain it.. Mozilla also comes with 3 different Javascript tools: a debugger, a JavaScript console, and a DOM Inspector (hmm... I'm going to have to check that one out! :rolleyes: ). Netscape has always had a Javascript error reporter that was better than IE's, I do admit, but it was also more needed because it seems to me that it's harder to script for Netscape than IE. IE is EZ. :p lol

Also, I did view the W3C in IE and compared it to Mozilla. I think that IE looks more sloppy, true, but it's so much... skimpy? I can't think of the word. I mean, like everything is a lot skinnier and stuff, whereas with Mozilla everything seems more bulky and scrunched together.

But it's still a great browser, and I do like those themes!
Jona

[Jona]

Another thing I forgot to mention is, I like IE more than Mozilla also because the way IE formats the textareas and forms. It looks a lot nicer to me.


Jona

[hastx]

I use opera 7 (mostly for testing purposes) It has some cool skins to download and its default display fromatting does seem to more closely resemble ie than mozilla. But I do think it is faster than ie and has some neat features.

I'll see if I can get a screenshot

[hastx]

here's a shot at 800 x 600. it's the freeware version so you have to put up with ads. it uses tabbed browsing like mozilla for mutiple windows open but only 1 opera in the windows taskbar. but just about everything can be configured different ways.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by khalidali63

If you want to see a good site for comparision.Just view W3C site using Mozilla(or NS6+ for that matter) and IE you will be amazed to witness the crappiness of IE.
IE is popular? yes,no question about it, only because of windows monopoly on desktop PC market.
http://themes.mozdev.org/
ah so we are going to go back to this are we. It isnt a monopoly because I have windows and redhat on my machine no one holds my at gun point and says boot into xp. Also mac is still around. Plus ie is a good browser mozilla has its downfalls like it does some weird things to some of my scripts for one thing it wont read some of the commands to one of my text boxes in asp.net like the back color and all. Yes asp.net is a microsoft thing but that doesnt mean that mozilla should not read it correctly.

[PeOfEo]

I have opera... do I use it NOOOO. I really dont like opera, its tabbed vision just totally pisses me off. Also it messes up borders, like it would not read the css on aspx pages. Plus no matter what the skin the scroll bars are ugly as sin (rhyme) it wont even read scroll bar css.

[spufi]

"it wont even read scroll bar css."

If I have this correct, it's a IE only kind of a thing, so it's not Opera's fault for not handling it.

[PeOfEo]

no, If I am not mistaken ns6 and the new mozilla can too.

[PeOfEo]

this just in it has a java script deficientcy It failed to read an image fade script done in java script!

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
It failed to read an image fade script done in java script! Depending on how you coded it, that is no surprise at all. Perhaps you used IE only proprietary code...?

[Dark Dragon]

I just viewed the screenshot for opera...looks intruiging too....maybe I will research it myself,eh?

[Jona]

Hastx, thanks for the screenshot. It looks to me very much like IE. I'll download it, but I'll not pay for it. ;) I don't think that you should have to pay for it. I like IE and Mozilla, and I think I'll stick with them.. Although I'll still have to test in Netscape 4, 6, and 7 until Netscape bites the dust.. Which hopefully will happen soon.. Anyways, thanks.

PeOfEo, I think that you're Microsoft-biased. No offense, but all JavaScript code should be made to be compatibile with all browsers that are capable of handling it. I used to dislike Netscape to such an extent, that I purposely designed my site so that it wouldn't work in Netscape. Just to show my disgust. Now that I've thought about it, I realize that for one it's not right, and for two all of my pages should be standards compliant. So I've taken a new look at things and I now work as much as possible to make my site look identical in all browsers.

Jona

[Dark Dragon]

Speakin' o' Netscape...I downloaded Netscape 6 (I think) a few months ago.

After installing it and using it..I was confused...the display area was so small while all these panels were open for something...I deleted it after just one hour too..

Come to find out that at least one reason Netscape is so hosed up is because AOL bought it...

Oh joy!!!:rolleyes:

[Robert Wellock]

Well, Mozilla Firebird is a fairly fine browser still it has quite a way to go until it reaches version one.

I cannot say that I care much for Opera since it does have some strange quirks with JavaScript although its CSS support is far superior to Micro$oft IE.

[Jona]

You mean Opera supports all W3C-standard CSS2? I thought IE6.0 and NN7 did, too.

[khaki]

everybody loves to kill Microsoft...

but WAKE UP!!!

Opera actually CHARGES for thier browser!

None of you Microsoft-haters would let Microsoft get away with that...
so where is the outrage?

Opera needs to rename itself....
they have earned the right to have
$ in thier name somewhere :rolleyes:

Opera shmopera.... if I didn't use it only for testing purposes...
I'd never use it at all :rolleyes:

just jealous because I can't even sing in the shower...
;) k

[Jona]

I think Microsoft, for one, is awesome. Second, I agree with you about hating Opera. No matter how good of a browser it is, it sucks because you have to pay for it. That is foolish of them. No wonder their browser is used the least often! As long as Microsoft doesn't go into Opera's trail, we'll be okay....

Jona ;)

[pyro]

I personally hope that IE does NOT become the only browser... I can't belive anyone would... If it does, do you all really expect it to remain free? This is Micro$oft that we are talking abou guys... Come on.... :rolleyes:

[Jona]

Actually, I'm hoping that IE and Mozilla will be the only two browsers, both of which would be free. And hopefully that IE becomes more standards compliant.

I know what you mean about MS and the monopoly, but if Mozilla is used by at least 40% of the users, it should remain free...... Besides, they make enough money every time the sell a single disc holding the Windows OS.

Jona

[khaki]

This is Micro$oft that we are talking abou guys yeah....
we don't want Microsoft to turn into another $Opera now... do we? :)

;) k

[AdamGundry]

Actually, I'm hoping that IE and Mozilla will be the only two browsers, both of which would be free.I think we only need Mozilla - I've yet to find something (valid) that IE can do and Mozilla can't. And Moz has loads of features like the sidebar (I have instant HTML, CSS and JS references at my fingertips :)).

Adam

[Jona]

Mozilla also has a lot of stuff like a JavaScript debugger, DOM inspector, Java and JavaScript console.. Stuff like that really comes in handy.

Jona

[khaki]

wow...

you guys actually use your browsers.

all I ever use is the bookmarks.

I'm obviously missing-out on some kind of a party
(what the heck is my malfunction :rolleyes: )

note to self: learn your browser

floating cluelessly through cyberspace with a dim bulb in my head...
;) k

[Jona]

LOL!

Jona

[sheila]

And hopefully that IE becomes more standards compliant.

Surely if there was no competition Microsoft wouldn't need to bother with standards at all. :rolleyes:

[Jona]

Maybe I should rephrase that:

"And HOPEFULLY that IE becomes more standards compliant."

Jona

[sheila]

Sorry Jona, didn't mean to offend you. Was actually agreeing with you. Thought your comment was very pertinent.

The focus so far seems to have been mostly on competition putting pressure on developers to provide their browsers for free. Yet much of the discussion in these forums comes back to standards at some point, we all want standards compliant browsers, and competition seems to be our only effective lever for moving developers towards our dream.

(Wish I had Khaki's gift of the gab..! :D)

[Jona]

I forgot the ":D" in my last post... My comment was supposed to be funny. :p

J_o_N_a

[sheila]

:o

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by pyro
Depending on how you coded it, that is no surprise at all. Perhaps you used IE only proprietary code...?
I didn't code it I just know java script is the culprit of the roll over and its on a site that did have a rollover when I viewed it on ie. I JUST DONT LIKE OPERA IS THAT SO HARD TO BELIEVE! Mozilla is a'ite but opera just makes me want to stomp on things. :D

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Jona


PeOfEo, I think that you're Microsoft-biased. No offense, but all JavaScript code should be made to be compatibile with all browsers that are capable of handling it. I used to dislike Netscape to such an extent, that I purposely designed my site so that it wouldn't work in Netscape. Just to show my disgust. Now that I've thought about it, I realize that for one it's not right, and for two all of my pages should be standards compliant. So I've taken a new look at things and I now work as much as possible to make my site look identical in all browsers.[/color][/font]

Jona [/B] Its not hard to make a site work on the new netscape they have made great strides because ns3 is horrid but ns6 is great thats only 2 versions between! Well anyways I dont think im ms biased I use a lot of their stuff but I still use other things too like red hat and mozilla, I just dont like opera. I didint pay for all of my ms stuff but keep that a secret. I think they charge too much for their stuff but it rocks so I still find ways to get my hands on it...

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by pyro
I personally hope that IE does NOT become the only browser... I can't belive anyone would... If it does, do you all really expect it to remain free? This is Micro$oft that we are talking abou guys... Come on.... :rolleyes: That can't really happen, as long as their are other operating systems and new languages and apps coming out all the time their will always be competition I think. But have you seen virtual pc on macs yet? Pretty much running xp through your mac... practical actually, scary a little, awecome... VERY!

[PeOfEo]

QUIT HATING ON MS THOUGH! If it were not for them and their windows I would not be able to game! Mac has what 3 games? starcraft pong and tic tac toe extreme! Linux has tux racer woo whoo that game gets old fast. I think we need ms for the gamer's sake.

[AdamGundry]

You obviously have never seen Happy Penguin (http://www.happypenguin.org/).

The only way we are going to get decent browsers (and operating systems) is if there is competition. Gradually I think more users will switch to OSS (Mozilla, Linux, etc) as it improves and becomes easier to use. That's if SCO don't get their way. :rolleyes:

Adam

[spufi]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
QUIT HATING ON MS THOUGH! If it were not for them and their windows I would not be able to game!

Completely wrong. If MS were not around gaming would be alive and well. The reason other OS have so few of games is because so few people use those OS. Making games is about money. If you are going to make a game, you want it to be in the widest market possible. In terms of the PC that's being on Windows. Of course, on consoles it's on PS2, and hence the XBox has a hard time getting XBox only games made. This just means Bill goes out and buys a bunch of smaller companies to make games for the XBox.

[khaki]

This just means Bill goes out and buys a bunch of smaller companies to make games for the XBox. hey spuf....
are you just stating a fact...
or is that some sort of complaint?
(just curious)
;) k

[Jona]

Me being the kind of guy who greatly enjoys video games, I have a lot of information on this topic (I argue with people about it every day of my life). First of all, Nintendo is buying Microsoft's XBox, and going to make the "GameBox" (a mixture of the two consoles) coming, supposedly, soon. Microsoft has lost a great deal of money on the XBox, and the console basically stopped selling late last year. Nintendo rules! Microsoft isn't for the gaming industry--not for anything other than PC games, that is.

Jona

[khaki]

Making games is about money Making software is about money.
Making Operating Systems is about money.
yet.... nobody thinks that Microsoft should be able to make money :confused:

the double-standards that people apply to Microsoft is mind-boggling :rolleyes:

boggled...
;) k

[spufi]

Originally posted by Jona
Me being the kind of guy who greatly enjoys video games, I have a lot of information on this topic (I argue with people about it every day of my life). First of all, Nintendo is buying Microsoft's XBox, and going to make the "GameBox" (a mixture of the two consoles) coming, supposedly, soon. Microsoft has lost a great deal of money on the XBox, and the console basically stopped selling late last year. Nintendo rules! Microsoft isn't for the gaming industry--not for anything other than PC games, that is.

Jona

Um, wrong. The last I heard was the Game Cube was doing the worst of the three and there have been some rumbling about it's future. While the XBox certainly has it's own troubles it is supported by Bill Gates. If anybody can wait through slow start up period it's him. This was actually reported in a gaming magazine I read. Sorry, if I don't have the name of it, but they basically said the same thing. If Nintendo was going to buy the XBox it would be huge news, and so far this is the first I've heard of it.

And khaki, I'm stating fact. If you look at MS's history in terms of games, you'll see that they tend to buy up smaller compaines that make quality stuff, but don't exactly have the money. MS did this for PC games and they became on of the best companies for games, and they are slowly doing it for the XBox. This is why I figured that the XBox, or a future version of it, would give the PS line a run for it's money. Also note that the XBox came out much later than the PS2 and a number of games get to the XBox much later after it comes out for the PS2. MS actually has the better console itself, and they said that when PS3 comes out the XBox 2 will be right there, so there's a more level playing ground.

[spufi]

Originally posted by khaki
Making software is about money.
Making Operating Systems is about money.
yet.... nobody thinks that Microsoft should be able to make money :confused:

the double-standards that people apply to Microsoft is mind-boggling :rolleyes:

boggled...
;) k

It's not that they want to make money. It's how they want to make their money that people complain about.

[khaki]

It's not that they want to make money. It's how they want to make their money that people complain about. well...
at least they don't make their money by selling their browser like $Opera
(and yet... where are the complaints for that?)

it's a VERY BAD PRECEDENT!!!

I am SHOCKED that there is not more outrage about this.

.... but i guess that most of you will start "complaining" after it becomes the norm and it's too late to do anything about it.

FREE the World Wide Web!...
;) k

[Jona]

I'm not going to get into a big argument, but I'd just like to say this: XBox sucks and should go with Nintendo and let MS get back to the PC and only the PC. The PS2 sucks rotten eggs and all of the games are freaking stupid. Violent crime is portrayed in almost all of the games on the PS2. Almost all of them are rated M, if not, T. GameCube's games are mostly rated E, and there are some that are rated T (but most of them don't have much in them). In comparison, the GameCube not only has better graphics, but they can make almost any game that the PS2 or Xbox can, and then some! The PS2 and XBox are much more limited than the GameCube.

If you'd like to argue this point further, try going to http://gametalk.com/talk/boxcube/ and see what others think.

Jona

[spufi]

1. Do you have to buy the Opera browser? No. There is a free download version. Yes you can pay for it to remove ads, but a number of things do that these days, frees web hosts vs. pay web hosts. Is this a crappy thing to do? I don't know. How is Opera making it's money. One way is by using banner ads. If you want to get rid of the ads, then the customer needs to offset the money brought in by the ads.

2. But Microsoft doesn't charge for it's browser you say. It's becasue in all likelyhood you have it installed on your PC anyway and the cost is technically added in as part of the Windows OS. MS have a ton more leverage towards handing out a free browser than what other comapnies do.

3. And yes, the Game Cube is the best system for a younger audience. It does not mean the other consoles suck. You can hate Halo all you want, but it still remains one of the greatest games ever on any system.

[khaki]

i'm not trying to get in a p*ss-fight with you spuf
(after all... what chance would I have? lol)...

but I recently downloaded Mozilla.
It didn't come bundled in my OS.
It doesn't have any ads that I need to pay to remove.
So what's $Opera's excuse?

Another point:

Right now it's an advertising banner which reduces the viewing area.

What's next...
pre-paid minutes that shut-down the browser when you exceed your minutes?

As soon as a company is allowed to get away with distributing a browser which intrudes on the surfing experience...
it's just a matter of time before the internet becomes like American television...
and all of your surfing will be interupted by unavoidable commercial messages.

Don't think it could happen?
$Opera has begun the process.

We all already know that everything is about money.
Right now the internet belongs to those who choose to surf.
So we have to protect our waves....
or we'll be forced to pay if we want to ride them.

$Opera is evil.
Where is the outrage?!

FREE the Wide World Web...
;) k

[AdamGundry]

Opera is a commercial product, and as such it's perfectly reasonable to try to sell it. There just happen to be another product which is free and better - Mozilla.

I don't hear you complaining about Windows, but there's a freely downloadable alternative to that as well. Linux. :cool:

Adam

[spufi]

Originally posted by khaki

it's just a matter of time before the internet becomes like American television...
and all of your surfing will be interupted by unavoidable commercial messages.

Too late, it's already happened. In a way at least. Pop up windows and banner ads were the early beginnings. ESPN has been known to have these Flash like ads pop up on top of the page. You can click out of them, but they are still annoying. I wouldn't doubt at some point a person could get one of these ads after so many clicks on a site. As long as the web doesn't start to look like a GQ magazine, then I'm happy. :p

I'm not sure the whole story behind Mozilla and how they are able to go without ads. I know they were getting help from Netscape. If it makes you happy, I use Mozilla and Opera isn't installed on my PC. :)

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by spufi


I'm not sure the whole story behind Mozilla and how they are able to go without ads. I know they were getting help from Netscape. If it makes you happy, I use Mozilla and Opera isn't installed on my PC. :) I believe netscape bought source codes from them in order to make their browser. But baout the ads.. They have popup blockers you know... I guess that is like the internets 'tivo'.

[khaki]

TiVo rocks!

[PeOfEo]

the bathtub frightens me... :D

[jeffmott]

Making software is about money.
Making Operating Systems is about money.You apparently havn't noticed the Open Source project. Free software that delivers top quality OSs, browsers, Web servers, and much more (e.g., Linux, Mozilla, Apache).

yet.... nobody thinks that Microsoft should be able to make moneyNo one minds a business making money. It's when Microsoft makes a piss poor product and uses its monopolistic position to almost force this software onto people. If a business makes good software, you won't hear any complaining. For instance, Adobe Photoshop or Macromedia Dreamweaver. Even Microsoft Office. Office has just as strong a hold over its market as does IE or Windows. But you don't hear people complaining about Office because it is a good product. IE is not, and Windows is not.

So this shows that it's not all due to a twisted, evil, Microsoft bias. If MS makes a good product, we're happy. If they make a bad product (and then use illegal business practices to get it on people's computers since it wouldn't sell on its own) then we're pissed off.

What is irritating are people who are biased for Microsoft. Such as when Microsoft breaks the law in a attempt to bury Java and people blame Sun for the legal battle that follows. It's those people who should be shot, and then sued for getting in the way of my bullet. I'm sure they would appreciate the irony. :)

[khaki]

me-youch!

guess i'll start wearin' kevlar

i think that i read in another thread that khalid was looking for a fight.
not me...

adios
:rolleyes: k

[jeffmott]

sorry, didn't mean all that to be directed at you :o

[netcraven]

is this a user agent?
i seen this in my log file at my (http://cheetahsolutions.com) website.
what are some of the search engine user agents?

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by jeffmott
[No one minds a business making money. It's when Microsoft makes a piss poor product and uses its monopolistic position to almost force this software onto people. If a business makes good software, you won't hear any complaining. For instance, Adobe Photoshop or Macromedia Dreamweaver. Even Microsoft Office. Office has just as strong a hold over its market as does IE or Windows. But you don't hear people complaining about Office because it is a good product. IE is not, and Windows is not.

So this shows that it's not all due to a twisted, evil, Microsoft bias. If MS makes a good product, we're happy. If they make a bad product (and then use illegal business practices to get it on people's computers since it wouldn't sell on its own) then we're pissed off.

What is irritating are people who are biased for Microsoft. Such as when Microsoft breaks the law in a attempt to bury Java and people blame Sun for the legal battle that follows. It's those people who should be shot, and then sued for getting in the way of my bullet. I'm sure they would appreciate the irony. :) [/B]


AHHH HEM... which product are you refering to that is piss poor. The only one I can think of that is really poor is front page I like the toehr stuff. Microsoft makes good stuff. How do they break the law? They have not been ruled on as a monopoly by a court. Also their version of vm was better because it made java perform better on windows machines and that wqas what it was designed for it was by no means an attemt to bury sun as you call it. you just love to find someone to single out and you pick on microsoft because they are the biggest. Also ie is a good product it is a high end browser and its a heck of a lot better then opera. Mozilla is good too but it has its downfalls and I dont think you can say any browser is perfect but ie is pretty darned good I dont see many quicks with its css handleing or its java script... So please make a better case next time when you try to put something down because it is not all that bad. Windows is also a good product by the way and you will be very supprised when longhorn comes out. I have an alpha and it is like xp but faster and more stable and you will be eating your words when it comes out.

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
ie is pretty darned good I dont see many qui[r]ks with its css handleingIE is known for it's pathetic CSS handeling... Think: IE adds borders to the inside, rather than the outside of elements (why???), IE does not support position:fixed, etc, etc, etc...

[PeOfEo]

I see adding borders to the inside as an advantage... But all of thiis css stuff is going to change when the new css comes out.. do you have a date for that?

[PeOfEo]

also Ie has to support postion because I look at sites done with css all the time and they have elslemts postioned with it and stuff like that. What vers of ie are you one because I am on the newest one.

[pyro]

The ones that I mentioned above are relavant to IE6... IE5 has a lot more.

[PeOfEo]

well I have not noticed them give me a site link and prove this to me, show me a site that will be destroyed on my browser.

[pyro]

View the following page in IE6 and then Mozilla: http://www.infinitypages.com/temp/ie6bugs.htm

[khaki]

ummm....

hey Pyro... i don't think that it's necessary to provide examples for Peo.

he is either being contrary...
or naive (i think it's the former)

just like there are anti-Microsoft people who will never have anything but anti-Microsoft views...
there are pro-Microsoft people who will have nothing but pro-Microsoft views.

so.... no amount of examples will "enlighten" Peo.
He is taking a stand.

I think that you should just let it go
(and besides.... I heard that he is afraid of bathtubs :rolleyes: )

(what this tread needs is a really bad off-topic joke so that it can be closed. lol)...
;) k

[pyro]

Originally posted by khaki
He is taking a stand.If that is indeed what he is doing, that is fine... But, one can't argue with the bugs pointed out in my link... The border one is expecially annoying, as there is no earthly reason for them to do that...

[khaki]

But, one can't argue with the bugs pointed out in my link no argument.

it's well know by most that IE has their own way of doing things...
and their own proprietary features and bell and whistles.

are they wrong?
yes.

how will they be brought back into line with everyone else (also known as the standards)?

web devlopers need to design according to standards.
eventually IE pages will look bad to web surfers.... and they will switch to browsers which properly display the pages.

THAT will get Microsoft's attention.

but it's up to web developers to change that attitude (they won't do it on thier own)

in my opinion... (and it comes from a pro-Microsoft girl :) ) ...
;) k

[nkaisare]

PeOfEo: Microsoft makes good stuff.
No doubt. You don't become industry leader by making bad stuff. But if you are industry leader, and you use that position to beat the hell out of others (who are actually better) - thats when people get pissed off. Remember how NS was batterred out of business when MS packaged IE with Win. Lotus 1-2-3 is another example that was batterred by MS, simply because Excel came with MS Office and you needed to buy 1-2-3 separate (well, it came with Word Pro, Lotus Suite etc... but by then it was too late).

PeOfEo: no means an attemt to bury sun
Is this statement for the sake of argument? As Khaki stated, "he is either being contrary... or naive"

you pick on microsoft because they are the biggest.
We wouldn't mind if they were the best... like they ARE when it comes to MS Office. I have some complaints about MS Office too, but none other product compares with Office... at least none at this time.

Also ie is a good product it is a high end browser and its a heck of a lot better then opera. Mozilla is good too but it has its downfalls
IE is good, no doubt. But it doesn't support web standards... not even CSS-1. By no means is its CSS support bad, just that there is a hell of a lot of room for improvement.

About Opera, I feel its amongst the best browsers I ever used. It has some problems with javascript. But I am not too enamored with js... so it actually another reason why I like Opera :)

I dont see many quicks with its css handleing
I quote Khaki again... "contrary... or naive".

you will be very supprised...
I would love it if MS has GOOD surprizes coming up. I am no windows hater. But I cant digest the fact that I need to unplug my comp every time I use IE and Matlab simultaneously, but Win works perfectly if I browse using Opera when running simulations on Matlab.

spufi: I'm not sure the whole story behind Mozilla and how they are able to go without ads.
Khaki: Making software is about money.
PeOfEo: But all of thiis css stuff is going to change when the new css comes out.. do you have a date for that?
Quoting Jeff: "You apparently havn't noticed the Open Source project. Free software that delivers top quality OSs, browsers, Web servers, and much more (e.g., Linux, Mozilla, Apache)."
Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org/mission.html
Open Source Initiative: http://www.opensource.org/
The basic idea behind open source is very simple: When programmers can read, redistribute, and modify the source code for a piece of software, the software evolves. People improve it, people adapt it, people fix bugs. And this can happen at a speed that, if one is used to the slow pace of conventional software development, seems astonishing.

[nkaisare]

Originally posted by khaki
are they wrong?
yes.
Not necessarily. They are, if you ignore the standards and do what you like. That makes my life, as a webdeveloper, hell. For example, Mozilla's way of using moz-specific box model selector is not in standards... but its a great addition. Because moz supports web standards and adds these features on top of that.

[Robert Wellock]

Plugh.

[khaki]

Originally posted by Robert Wellock
Plugh. is there an American translation for that Robert?

;) k

[Robert Wellock]

No, it's an archaic word similar to Xyzzy and that was off-topic enough to bring the thread to a close albeit no doubt people will beg to differ ;).

[khaki]

What do you call a fish with no eyes?

A f sh.

(that should do it).
Plugh Xyzzy
;) k

[Jona]

You're ruined it! 70 replies and it's going to be locked now! :( :( :(

LOL... :D

Jona

[khaki]

70?

ponderous had 453
(that may be a record)

:)

[Jona]

But I didn't post it. :D

[khaki]

I did :)

[nkaisare]

Khaki, about your $opera rant...
Do you demand Windows to be free? Why then should opera be free? Its just another company that needs to sell its browser to make money. Is there anything wrong with that? And is IE really free... it comes bundled with Windows and we pay a hefty sum for it. At least Opera is supported by the less intrusive Ad banner (which I find it easy to ignore as its always in the same position) and you aren't required to buy it in order to use.

Mozilla is a different story. Its an open source browser. Which means that anyone is free to modify it, improve it and use it. Linux is also free. Do you demand Win or OSX be free because Linux is.

I guess I am Op-defensive, just like PeOfEo was MS-defensive. :)

[pyro]

Thank you, nkaisare, for bringing this back on-topic. Had I been around, it would have been closed. Please read the rules (http://forums.webdeveloper.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9968)

[khaki]

first of all...
nice save Niket

second...
sorry Pyro.... I thought that I was helping-out Robert
(you got me yesterday for doing that... so I figured it was sure to work again).
Bad idea. I apologize.

third...
sorry Jona.... it wasn't my post... that shouldn't have been my decision to make.

fourth...
back on topic...

IE is downloadable for free
(or you can get a free disc mailed to you for the price of shipping)

$Opera is the ONLY "browser" that has decided to obscure the view-screen unless you pay them to make it all viewable.
I am personally offended by that...
and I feel that they have started a bad precedent which is certain to be copied.

I currently use Mozilla (I just switched from Netescape).
I personally don't care what browser I use... as long as I can view web pages on it.

I don't lump browsers and OS's into the same bin...
so I don't really have any comment about that.

When they start scaling browsers back... such as:

And for an additional $10.00 we will activate Javascript.
And for only $5.00 more you can click on an unlimited number of links.

etc.

you can blame $Opera for that (I know I will).

If we don't show these browser makers that we won't stand for that type of crap...
then they will take away more than just the top of the screen from us.

in my opinion...
;) k

[Dark Dragon]

Sorry...just stepped in here.

You mean Opera makes you pay a fee to browse onto of the fee you pay for internet service???:mad:

Boy...I am glad I didn't download it then

[khaki]

they only make you pay if you want to view the whole screen.

the free version has an obstructive advertisment at the top.

you can pay them to get the whole screen...
or use any other browser and get the whole screen for free.

NOTHING good can come of that :(

;) k

[Dark Dragon]

A fee to use their browser unobstructed...poor marketing ploy I might add.

Well, like I said, I am glad I found this out because I was considering downloading it but if I have to contend with ads on the browser AND pay a fee to use the whole screen and on top of that they restrict you to the number of links you click unless you pay?? What the "bleep" is that????:rolleyes:

[khaki]

:eek: :eek: P S !

I think that you have been mis-lead by my post.

I was "speculating" about the links and the javascript part
(it could happen - who knows - but it's not currently the case)

bleep bleep.... :)
;) k

[nkaisare]

No matter what, Moz will remain free (unless it disappears in wilderness). And I doubt if MS will charge for using IE, for lawmakers will then undoubtedly view the NS episode as monopolistic arm-twisting.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by khaki
ummm....

hey Pyro... i don't think that it's necessary to provide examples for Peo.

No it was I needed to see that... But if the cell on the left was done with css shoudlnt it line up with the one on the right


he is either being contrary...
or naive (i think it's the former)

yea its the latter [/quote]


I think that you should just let it go
(and besides.... I heard that he is afraid of bathtubs :rolleyes: )

You said that I am afraid of bathtubs lol and maybe I am especially those nasty ones in hotels Im a shower man :)

(what this tread needs is a really bad off-topic joke so that it can be closed. lol)...
;) k [/B]
halliluya. I CANT SPELL FORGIVE ME!

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by nkaisare
No matter what, Moz will remain free (unless it disappears in wilderness). And I doubt if MS will charge for using IE, for lawmakers will then undoubtedly view the NS episode as monopolistic arm-twisting. I thought that ms provided services for their browser... Like email and aim and all, you can get that all separate for free but still they throw that in dont they?

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
But if the cell on the left was done with css shoudlnt it line up with the one on the rightYes, they should, that is the problem. They line up fine in Mozilla... IE has a problem with borders, thus causing them to line up wrong when I try to position them...

[PeOfEo]

well I use css for borders all the time and i dont have a problem cause all of my borders are css I am not mix and mathing html and css, and I like it being on the inside cause it saves a little space on the outside. If everything is in css you have no problem.

[jeffmott]

...and i dont have a problem cause all of my borders are css I am not mix and mathing html and css, If everything is in css you have no problemPyro's example was also completely CSS, and there certainly is a problem. Of course if you had bothered to look at the source for Pyro's page you'd know that yourself. In fact I'm curious why you didn't look before posting again. It's almost like you go out of your way to come to an uninformed conclusion.and I like it being on the inside cause it saves a little space on the outsideAnd what if you don't want that space on the outsite? Then you're SOL.

[jeffmott]

And then there's IE's float model problem (http://www.positioniseverything.net/floatmodel.html) as well as its 3px space (http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html). Keep looking through the rest of that site.

So hopefully now you'll drop your "Microsoft hating" theory. We don't just see an MS logo and decide it's crap. We have real reasons for disliking IE.

[PeOfEo]

no I said if everything has css borders it would no be off but one cell had a border one did not I looked and I didi not see a border on the cell to the left. But you would not noticie it if they had both had borders.

[pyro]

Are you still talking about my code? If so, go back and look both <div>'s have borders. The problem is the IE adds the borders to the inside of the <div> so when one trys to position it, it craps out in IE. This is fairly easy to work around, but the two that jeffmott linked to in his last post cause many more problems.

[PeOfEo]

it looked like 1 cell has a border and another doesnt post the link again.

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
post the link again. You know, you could have gone back two pages and got it yourself... :rolleyes: http://www.infinitypages.com/temp/ie6bugs.htm

[nkaisare]

This is one place where I believe W3 got it wrong. IE model is more intuitive to me. There have been a lot of discussion on which model is better, and there are equal number of people on both sides of the fence. It should be rectified in CSS3, which will allow us to choose which box model to use.

But no matter what, using a different box model than the standards does create problems. It means that we need to come up with hacks to work around this problem, by providing different values for IE5/IE5.5 and the rest. Thankfully, IE6 uses the correct box model... and Tantek hack and SBMH work and are well documented.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by pyro
You know, you could have gone back two pages and got it yourself... :rolleyes: http://www.infinitypages.com/temp/ie6bugs.htm I could but I am just way way waaaayyyyy to lazy :P. I AM TIRED OF THIS SUBJECT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT ON 3 THREADS AND THEY ARE ALL 4 + PAGES LONG AHHHHHHHH

[IxxI]

I hate to point this out to everyone, but the argument seems to revolve around browsers being free (well part of khaki's does anyway). I'm not picking on you khaki, but although I do like IE it will no longer be free. Microsoft have recently announced that IE 6 is the last MS browser you will be able to download free, the next versions will come bundled with OS's and ONLY bundled with OS's. So although $Opera may make you pay to remove the ad's, it can't be as much as you'll need to pay Micro$oft for IE7, which will be bundled with Longhorn (or whatever they're calling it these days). Looks like whatever Microsoft do to sort out CSS problems, Mozilla will be getting a lot more popular in the near future...
Feel free to discuss!!

IxxI

[khaki]

ARE you picking on me :confused:

I think that you miss my point...
but I don't look at it as though you are "picking on me".

As far a MS goes...
if they choose to slit their own throats...
that's their choice (although it's not as though I have ever had any success downloading any version of IE from them anyway).

And if they are only bundleing their future browsers into the OS...
it's not the same as "making you pay for the browser".
That's like saying that people have to buy an MS OS so that they can run Paintbrush.

So if that is MS's strategy (and it appears that it is)...
it's a bad one.
And it will "hurt" no one but themselves in the long-run (while unintentionally helping others, I would guess)

But my point (which I will not repeat again) remains as it was.
This has nothing to do with who is a bigger "meanny".
I am not "taking sides".
I made a point.
If people don't understand it... then I failed to make it well enough.
If people disagree with it... then it is their right to do so.

No "argument" from me.
I was just voicing my concerns, disgust, and fears.

(and just for the record... I had my first real "Moz moment", when I was unable to complete an online transaction while using it. I had to launch Netscape and the transaction went through without a problem. Now I'm concerned that Moz might have been a mistake for me. Back to Netscape? Maybe. We'll see)

Not concerned about "free browsers".... just wants to be "free" to browse...
;) k

[IxxI]

Really - I'm not picking on you khaki - it's just that you were pioneering the $Opera debate...
The reason people don't buy MS OS' to run Paintbrush is because there are better options out there that don't involve buying Windows. My point (although very badly put) was that people will start moving to "free" browsers like Mozilla, Netscape and Opera, because they don't involve buying the newest windows, and also because if there's a bug it won't mean buying the next OS to fix it, you'll just download netscape 8 or whatever. Sorry if my last post offended you, it was badly worded as opposed to malicious...

IxxI

[khaki]

I wrote:
I think that you miss my point...
but I don't look at it as though you are "picking on me". no need to tip-toe around me xx.
I wasn't offended by what you wrote.
(didn't you read what i wrote above?)

And P-L-E-A-S-E....
for the record:

I do not beleive in paying to view free websites because a browser has elected to market itself that way.

If IE wants to shut-out non-Windows users... that's their loss.

Same with $Opera
(and quite seriously... I've heard enough "excuse making" and what-not that no one is going to alter my opinion... so p-l-e-a-s-e let's not waste amy more of anyone's time tying :rolleyes: ).

I use Netscape (fully functional and free)
I use Moz (a bit buggy... but free)
I only use IE to test (although my current version is free)
And I refuse to use $Opera because it is either not fully functional (obscured view)... or ... it's not free.

This has NOTHING to do with IE and the future of their browser.
And let's be real...
anyone who would even consider buying an entire OS just to be able to surf with the latest version of IE...
well.... that would be the single stupidest thing that I could think of.

This thread really should have been killed-off a long time ago (I think).
I don't know how to explain myself any other way...
so if any of you still don't "get" what I'm saying...
then ... I'll just have to remain misunderstood, I guess.

Am I offended (or was I offended)?
No... not at all (well... by $Opera I am... but... I think that I have already covered that to the point of redundancy by now).

it's a big planet.... and personally it doesn't matter to me if we all don't agree.... as long as we respect each other's right to disagree.
;) k

[Jona]

Thanks for the news, IxxI. Very interesting, indeed. I dislike MS's idea. The browser should stay free! :mad:
I like the way IE is, but if they make version 7 a "pay" version, then I will never make an IE-compatible site again!

Ok, I wasn't serious, but this news agrivates the beef out of me! :mad: Ugh..

On vacation, still at work,
Jona

[DaveSW]

Originally posted by khaki
If IE wants to shut-out non-Windows users... that's their loss.


I was reading an article about that a few minutes ago... apparently 97.46% of people use windows, so perhaps it's not much of a loss...

the msdn library doesn't have a menu in Opera if it identifies itself as ms6 (you can choose what browser to identify as) If you choose Opera you get very plain text links!!

By the way, at 1600 x 1200 you don't even notice Operas banner ad :D

dave

[pyro]

Originally posted by DaveSW
97.46% of people use windowsPerhaps true, but how many are going to be using the latest version? 40% still use Windows 98. http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/May/os.php

[khaki]

Originally posted by DaveSW
By the way, at 1600 x 1200 you don't even notice Operas banner ad :D
and it isn't visible at all if it sits on your desktop gathering dust :)

Originally posted by Jona
I like the way IE is, but if they make version 7 a "pay" version... They aren't making it a "pay version"...
they are just not offering it at all (although you can use it - just like Paintbrush or Windows Media player or whatever - if you are running that particular OS).

And just to clarify something:
Yes, there are better apps than Paintbrush...
but haven't I just read about 50 posts that say that there are also better browsers than IE?

I'm certainly not defending MS's strategy....
but if MS wants to take their "horrible" browser out of the open (free) market... why would most of you even care? (less to complain about? :eek: LOL)

it appears to me that this is the first step towards what you have all been wishing for.

but.... whatever...
;) k

[Robert Wellock]

I am surprised Pete hasn't cut-off this thread yet it has lost most of its credibility; other than a debate about the current trends and usage of browsers, corporate influence, and the leftover side effects of the browser-wars.

[Dark Dragon]

40% still use Windows 98.

Yes..sad but true..I myself still use Windows 98 because after researching Windows 2000 and so forth...I am unimpressed. I have heard of glitches and problems people encountered after installing later versions of Windows on their previously perfectly running machines.

I just don't want to spend hours trying to get my comp running after trying to upgrade...also I hear that newer versions of windows establishes a new directory too..can be a real headache if you have to start moving things around...I guess if I was to upgrade I'd have to back up my important stuff then wipe the HD clean and do a clean install to ensure fewer problems I guess.

As for IE...after hearing about security problems with IE 6..I will stick with IE 5, thank you very much.:D

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Jona
Thanks for the news, IxxI. Very interesting, indeed. I dislike MS's idea. The browser should stay free! :mad:
I like the way IE is, but if they make version 7 a "pay" version, then I will never make an IE-compatible site again!

Ok, I wasn't serious, but this news agrivates the beef out of me! :mad: Ugh..

On vacation, still at work,
Jona well ie is only going to get better with its handling of other languages until some new ones come out and I can only assume it will do a par for the cource job of handling those but I dont think it will be a problem makeing an ie compadable site when you dont have ie. Just make a friend go to it and look at it for you!

[DaveSW]

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/

here's another screenshot jona (you asked for them a long time and about 8 pages ago.)

Notice the lack of a menu if Opera identifies itself as IE6 (option in preferences) Otherwise you get plain old text links with no stylesheet! - same for mozilla etc.

[Jona]

OK, cool. (lol) Thanks.

By the way, can ya send me your bookmarks file? :p Looks like you have a few great links. :D

Jona

[DaveSW]

LOL

Is that Welsh Radar Detectors? or
eBay UK?
Whois?
Data Protection Act?
w3c?
w3schools?
A1 surfing forum?

LOL

[Jona]

No, I mean like Data Protection Act and stuff like that. :p Not eBay. lol

http://dslreports.com/tools

Jona

[DaveSW]

(uk) http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk/

Here's another one... just don't tell anyone I told you the address right? ;)
http://www.insecure.org/

[Jona]

OK, thanks. :)

Jona

[PeOfEo]

ebay is awesome like a hear attack. I know this has nothing to do with the topic but I am tired of the topic so I will talk about ebay. I am going to get my case from ebay go there and look at their selection man o man. My friend has a dremel (thats probably spelled wrong) rotary tool and he is going to cut a big hole in the side and we are going to drop a big plexy glass window in and then I am going to rig up some cold cathods into the power suply. My computer is going to look pretty nice :) For once it will look almost as good as it performs :) Now I just need another 512 stick of ram and I can stop spending on my comp for a while.

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
I know this has nothing to do with the topic but I am tired of the topic so I will talk about ...Please read http://forums.webdeveloper.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9968

[jeffmott]

...but I am tired of the topicthen stop posting to the thread

[PeOfEo]

i think everyone needs to goet away from this thread and never return we have been dwelling on this for how long? 2 weeks about?

[jeffmott]

If people want to continue discussing this topic, they're not going to just stop because PeOfEo says so. If you think the thread shouldn't be revisited then DON'T REVISIT IT. Everyone here with related questions/comments will get along just fine without you.

[khaki]

anybody remember the original topic?
;)
well... I do... and I'll bring it back around for another go:

When I installed Moz (1.4b) it seemed very Netscape-like.
And after re-booting... it had even imported all of my Netscape bookmarks (which is no small feat... beleive me :rolleyes: )

But... it also started this wierd thing where it would require me to log-in as a user.
okay... i sorta got past that part... and it doesn't really ask very often.
But... if I now launch Netscape... it asks me to log-in as a user.
And then of course... all my bookmarks remain with Moz... and Netscape (as a different user) has no bookmarks.

Then... if I close both Moz and Netscape...
then launch Moz...
I get the Netscape user-version (no bookmarks) and have to play a stupid little "launch/close/launch/close" game until Moz allows me to be the default user again (which has the bookmarks)

So what is the deal?
Do these 2 browsers share the same brain?
When I originally installed Moz... it looked like Netscape.
Now... when I launch Netscape it looks like Moz.

I won't give-up on Netscape, because Moz crapped-out on an online transaction that I had to finish by using Netscape (so Moz is obviously not reliable enough yet).

Does anyone else use (or try to use) both Moz and Netscape?
If so... do you have to play ring-around-the-rosey like I do?

buggin-out..
;) k

[Jona]

khaki, I use Netscape (6.2) and Mozilla (1.3), and I don't really have any problems like you do. However, the Mozilla browser (I believe) is based off of the Netscape browser. So, I'd imagine I should have the same problem. :rolleyes: Anyways, I noticed that the browsers also share cookies! :eek: So if I login to this forum in Netscape, I'm already logged in to this forum in Moz. That's cool. :)

Jona

[khaki]

Anyways, I noticed that the browsers also share cookies! So if I login to this forum in Netscape, I'm already logged in to this forum in Moz. That's cool. NO :eek:

NOT COOL!!!

I wanted 2 seperate browsers...
not 2 browsers that share the same brain.

If these 2 browsers are so alike that they cannot differentiate between each other...
then there are sure to be BIG problems with upgrading and/or un-installing.

I don't like this "2 browsers - 1 brain" thing.
The negatives would seem to be greater than the positives (i would think).

not amused...
;) k

[Jona]

Don't worry about it--I haven't had any problems (concerning the 2 browsers 1 brain thing :rolleyes: ) with 'em... Yet :eek: lol

If I do, I'll probably post here (in the General forum, of course) with the "news." :p

Jona

[khaki]

sharing cookies = sharing 1 brain

so what else are they sharing?
and how can they be 2 seperate browsers if they share anything at all?

i wasn't expecting that....
and i certainly do not look at it as anything except a potential problem/conflict/whatever.

(should'a just stuck with Netscape until it becomes extinct. Moz has dirtied the water :rolleyes: )

surprised by the dino logo for Moz (they became extinct too.... aren't they jinxing themselves?)...
;) k

[DaveSW]

Just out of interest...

1) where do I go about obtaining these 1,000,001 old browsers to test with?

2) And also how do I put them all on together?
Last night I tried to put Mozilla on.

1.1 would go on with Firebird 0.6
1.4 would go on with Firebird 0.6

But then 1.1 would simply load version 1.4.

If I reinstalled version 1.1 then 1.4 links loaded 1.1. How exactly do you install numerous browsers of the same type?

I can only get one version of IE on any machine as well.
My machine runs IE5.5, Opera 7.1, Mozilla 1.4, Mozilla Firebird 0.6. I test version IE6 on another machine, but I can't get any other browsers on one machine. Any tips anyone?

[Jona]

Install it in a different folder, Dave. :)

That's what I do,
Jona

[DaveSW]

i did - it didn't make any difference

[DaveSW]

and IE just says you have a newer version already installed, so you can only abort the install.

[khaki]

same here....
no difference.

what combo of browser versions do you have Jona?

[khaki]

and by the way...

it was that whole "newer version" IE thing that caused me to F-up my OS a couple of months ago.

I had an aborted install that placed files on my PC that did not allow me to do a true upgrade.

I couldn't go back...
I couldn't upgrade...
so I uninstalled IE completely...
and POOF!!!
OUT GO THE LIGHTS!!!

grrrrrrrrr...
;) k

[Robert Wellock]

You make partitions on your drive and use multiple boot OS if you really must use a different version of M$ IE on one machine, as for Mozilla you set it up in sperate directories with specific profile differences.

Although for Mozilla 1.0 onwards the main difference is rendering bug fixes in general.

http://browsers.evolt.org/

[DaveSW]

So how do I get a machine running IE4? my win98 disk has version 5 on it, and I can't get it to uninstall...

[Jona]

I had NN4 and IE4 on my old '98 computer, but I gave it to my grandma, so I haven't been able to test it, but I thought I had done that before.. In any case, I am going to figure it out one day... When I get my new hard drive (my dad STILL has not taken me to the store to get a new hard drive!!!!!).

Jona

[DaveSW]

Originally posted by Jona
(my dad STILL has not taken me to the store to get a new hard drive!!!!!).

Jona

you poor thing!! threaten to hijack the car. That usually works. Don't forget the check book/credit card as well.

[Robert Wellock]

I am not sure you can go a M$ IE version below your OS and nobody in the modern world, who has the resources, uses such a M$ browser out of choice.

[DaveSW]

anyone got a win 95 product key? (got the disk and license with my first pc, but no product key :( )

[DaveSW]

I am not sure you can go a M$ IE version below your OS and nobody in the modern world, who has the resources, uses such a M$ browser out of choice.

actually i've got a customer on 98 who has somehow managed to put IE4 back on. Don't know how, but apparently it was a nightmare job too. Reckons newer versions screw up his screen. I'm sending him Mozilla.

[khaki]

isn't the Product Key unique?

I'll try to dig-out the Product Key for my old machine...
but I'm not sure that you can just use any old Product Key (right?).

;) k

[DaveSW]

In my experience, so long as you have a product key it will install. I installed Win ME about 50 times with the same product key in a computer shop while on work experience - just to save fishing the codes out of the box.

PS - it was fully legal because all the licences were there. Honest

[khaki]

i'll start digging...

;) k

[DaveSW]

Thanks a lot. :) :D

[khaki]

i read somewhere that the Product Key and the Product ID are the same for Win95

i don't know if that's true or not...
(since 1 of them is 25 characters.. the other is 20)...
but... check the info that i emailed to you.
that might get you started (?)

[DaveSW]

Thanks Khaki

I'll go and wipe a hard drive and try the install...

it usually asks for a 25 digit number broken up into groups of 5. I've never installed 95 though, so I'll have to find out.

Speak to you in about half an hour (install is quite slow)

[khaki]

there may be a way to grab that number before you clear your machine....
so maybe you should check that first.

and maybe you can get it this way:
http://www.belarc.com/free_download.html

i'd hate for you to need a 25 char # and then be stuck

;) k

[DaveSW]

Actually my machine running 95 was wiped and upgraded long ago...
I'll try the product ID - I have one of those on the certificate of authenticity thing.

[khaki]

okay...
well... good luck with it :)

by the way...
here is where i read the part about the Win95 stuff:

http://personal-computer-tutor.com/abc2/v15/vic15.htm

as you are aware... i never really "read" anything that's on my screen (I "skim" :rolleyes: )... so I might not have "grasped" everything quite right.

Let me know it turns out.

;) k

[DaveSW]

hey - i visited there earlier... google search?

actually I found another link...

Better not post the address or I might be removed! It has hundreds of keys for all manner of different bits of software...


Thanks anyway - I'll let you know how it goes.

Dave

[PeOfEo]

STOP POSTING IN THIS TOPIC START A NEW ONE! I have been trying to kill this thread for a week or so now why do you come back!

[jeffmott]

I have been trying to kill this thread for a weekTHEN JUST LEAVE!
If you want to start a new thread then start one. Everyone else seems perfectly happy with things the way they are. Personally I feel if you continue posting unhelpful and pestering messages to this topic, they should be deleted. But I'm not a moderator of this section so I'll have to leave that decision up to others.

[Hester]

Opera ad banners can be hidden by pressing F11 to go into Fullscreen Mode. So you don't have to pay.:D

[DaveSW]

yeah, but then you don't have a start menu either...

[Hester]

If you press the WINDOWS key it appears along with the bottom bar. As long as you keep the mouse over it, the bottom bar stays there. Quite a neat way of using it in practice.

[Robert Wellock]

If you are experiencing problems with this mutated thread then, ask Pete nicely to take action.

I am sure he'll silence the thread it if travels too far.

[khaki]

Originally posted by Hester
Opera ad banners can be hidden by pressing F11 to go into Fullscreen Mode. So you don't have to pay.:D it is considered a no-no for a web developer to alter a user's view of thier screen.
the same should apply to a browser maker.

The point is... I don't want to have to change my screen settings in order to remove something that I don't feel should be obstructing my view in the first place.
That's the basis of my gripe.

and besides... the only time that i would ever launch $Opera would be to test my pages on it.
But since it doesn't provide a realistic "visual" interpretation anyway (vertically speaking)....
I've just stopped launching it at all.

;) k

EDIT:
and what is this sudden fascination with Moderators stepping-in to close threads?
Enough of that already :rolleyes:
Please save the "reporting" and the tattle-tailing for more deserving instances.
The rules are gray enough as it is here...
and now we have to worry that threads will be closed just because some people find it un-interesting, mutated, or otherwise lacking in credibility?
Give it a rest already. yeesh! :rolleyes:

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by jeffmott
THEN JUST LEAVE!
If you want to start a new thread then start one. Everyone else seems perfectly happy with things the way they are. Personally I feel if you continue posting unhelpful and pestering messages to this topic, they should be deleted. But I'm not a moderator of this section so I'll have to leave that decision up to others. yes but I would rather see you guys not dwell over opera mozilla and ie and say this one is better not this one is bla bla bla bla bla. We have more important things to post about this thread has just gone on for too long its 11 pages for something holy's sake.

[jeffmott]

and what is this sudden fascination with Moderators stepping-in to close threads?I don't think the thread should be closed. I think the select few (actually only one) that are being distruptive should be expelled from it.I would rather see you guys not...Then stop looking!!! Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?!? You don't have to post to this thread. You don't even have to read this thread. All you have to do is ignore it. One less link for you to click.