I find it frustrating

[Dark Dragon]

I am encountering individuals that, while still in high school, are learning and using JavaScripting, CGI and other stuff whilst I spent nearly 30,000 dollars on getting a degree in web and graphic design a couple of years ago and I am struglling to learn now what should've been taught then. :mad:

Sorry if this seems off-topic but sometimes I feel like a total doofus because here I am as an adult and I am being left in the proverbial dust as young kids (sometimes) are learning and utilizing things that should've been introduced in a course I paid for.

Yes,yes I know it is up to me to learn this stuff..so on and so forth and I agree somewhat...it's just that I am thinking all this "training" I went through was for nothing.....:(

[Jona]

I understand you completely, and yes it is very unfortunate that they didn't teach you what seems to me like it would have everything to do with Web development. What, my I ask, did you learn in college if you didn't learn this?

Jona

[Dark Dragon]

We learned mostly about graphic programs like Flash, Illustrator,Photshop, Quark Xpress....we learned some basics on each but I find it hard to utilize them...I am learning on my own some more about Photoshop and I am trying to understand Flash but trying to make animations with it are frustrating for me.

We also learned about PrePress...which deals with printing.

In Basic Web design we learned a little about HTML and about good and bad web design...interesting I suppose but relatively uninformative...then in Advanced Web Design we learned nothing...and I do mean nothing....no JavaScript, no CSS or CGI...zip, zilch..nada.....

So while we learned a wee bit of many things...I cannot really apply it to anything.....of course 99% of the students in my classes already had experience and knowledge of design as where in reality the first computer I owned was in 1995...even in High School...we were usig DOS while already Windows 3.1 was in use and so forth.....so I feel like a antiquated dinosuar trying in vain to get in step with the rest of those in web and graphic design.

[Jona]

Flash can become difficult at times, but that usually involves the ActionScript (which is relatively simple for me, because the syntax is almost identical to JavaScript). Animations are not all that difficult really, but it does take a lot of time.

Jona

[Dark Dragon]

Well..take yourself for an example Jona..you are presumably younger than I am yet you far outpace me in any of this knowledge.

Yes...at first I had false confidence and thought I could do it but even though I got the degree and okay grades...I knew something was terribly wrong...I had a hard time applying my book learned knowledge to anything...and I couldn't even get an entry lever job because of my lack of experience and understanding....

I use flash to draw graphics for a silly web site..import it into Fireworks for alteration then export it...the rest is confusing and frustrating....

(no I am not some mental defect either;) )

Like I said, the assumption was that everyone knew of this stuff and had experience with it...or even grew up with it...which I hadn't....so I struggle to learn the basics now of what I should have learned while enrolled in college.

(sighs sometimes I wonder if it is even worth it :o

[AdamGundry]

I think a lot of the time in the computer industry experience is much more important than qualifications, so just working at it is the best thing. The IT course I am doing at the moment is supposed to involve web design - the most complicated thing you have to know (for a maximum grade) is what <i> and <u> do.

I've found it much easier to pick up HTML coding than graphic design - I still struggle with even simple graphics. The only thing you can really do is work on as many projects as possible and get experience.

Good luck.

Adam

[Dark Dragon]

:mad: We are getting back to the same old platitude aren't we? Just keep at it...That is all fine and dandy but what good are projects if no one wants your feeble abilities..they are gonna choose someone with experience and hard core know-how than over someone like myself who cannot even use Javascript.

I have made a few personal web sites for fun but they are useless really and no one is interested in that...

Originally I wanted to learn illustration and such so I could design characters for games, Manga etc...pretty stupid, I know but that was what I was after....of course just as the courses were nearly over did I find that there was such a course available in another campus...but by then I was nearing graduation and I tried to get work...even the supposed work placement program my college had was useless for me as I never even dealt with graphics until I entered college....

(well, I did do some stupid drawing before then...nothing serious;) )

So no one is going to employ services from someone with absolutely no experience and weak skills...experience is useless if it cannot be documented, referenced and verified.

[khaki]

hey Dark Dragon...
don't be so dark :)

I understand your frustration...
especially when there are young guns like Jona and Pyro (and many others here) who seem to have been born with mind-numbing knowledge.

I can't quite wrap my head around that either...
but you just need to stop judging yourself by what everybody else knows.

You mention an interest in graphics...
so persue that area (and forget about javascript and whatever).
Graphic design is a niche field.
Focus on your interests, and what you are good at.

My personal opinion is that you should either learn a little of everything...
or learn a lot about one thing.
And if your "one thing" is graphic design.... then you should be able to market and employ yourself with those skills alone.

I myself am a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none.
And I consider that a weakness.
But after spending a bit of time on this forum...
I have come to realize that learning standards-compliant web development - and combining it with server-side data integration - should be my focus (along with some supplemental Javascript... most of which I will "borrow" from existing code).

So I think that you should:
follow your interests...
don't panic about what you don't know...
focus on your strengths...
and tap into the talent on this forum for everything else that you need.

It's a big (sometimes bickering :rolleyes: ) family here...
but as long as we support each other...
we all succeed.

so lighten-up DD...
there's hope for all of us... :)

;) k

EDIT:
oh...
and create a portfolio for yourself using the free sites.
when it comes to graphics...
nothing beats an easily accessible and visual protfolio
(experience can be over-rated... but substance cannot be denied) :)

[Nevermore]

Jona, I'm told you're 14, I'm 15. How old is Pyro, then...

[khaki]

oh crap...
cijori is 15 ?!

okay... just call me "dark khaki" from now on...

:( k

[Jona]

Pyro is 19.

I think bold is better..

Jona

[Nevermore]

OK, 'Dark Khaki'. LOL

But, seriously, don't be so depressed about how old I am, be depressed about how old Pyro is! (That is, assuming he isn't 4 million, in which case he has acquired knowledge at a normal speed.)

How many people are willing to say how old they are? It would be interesting to know.

[Nevermore]

Posting while I write is cheating. Now I look silly.

[Dark Dragon]

Thanks everyone but the reason I want to utilize at least some basic Javascript and such so I can expand my personal sites...such as making my own tips section or guestbook...I tried registering for one of those free guestbook services but they are so slow and I just wanna have more control over what is on my site...especially since if I make them myself then my visitors won't have all those ads and cookies to deal with too.

But when all is considered, I think I may have to give up on doing any graphics for a job...considering that in this society, creativity is not valued....only regurgitated graphics.....I don't know...too much competition, not enough experience and too little know-how and not enough talent.

:o (sighs)...well...thanks anyways

[Nevermore]

But if you think about it, there isn't much competition because everyone is getting their graphics from someone else. Down the line, their must be one person controlling the entire future of graphics, and who everyone eventually gets graphics from. Either someone from Microsoft, or someone in Paraguay.

[khaki]

How many people are willing to say how old they are? It would be interesting to know. I make no secret as to my age (see my profile).

... and ...

only 26 shopping days until my birthday
(if you need a mailing address... just let me know. :) lol)

soon to be a birthday girl...
;) k

[Dark Dragon]

Actually I create all my own graphics...I hardly ever use pre-made images.

But nowdays that seems to be all companies are interested in...regurgitating their graphics, adding a few different colors or whatever and calling it Graphic Design


So what do they need designers for when all they need is a clip art disc?

[Nevermore]

To carry the disc.

[Dark Dragon]

:confused:

[Jona]

Originally posted by khaki
[S]oon to be a birthday girl...

That's neat. I just turned 14. You're about to be 24? (I didn't look at your profile I am just guessing.)

Also, why is it hard for you to read the bold text? I think it's a lot "cooler" than without it... But if you can't read it then I won't use it..

Feeling bold... ;)
Jona

[Nevermore]

This threads getting a bit 'ponderous'. But, still, I turned 15 on March 10th.

[khaki]

YIKES!!!!

DD.... you are on such a downer :(

too bad we couldn't go out drinking...
I'd eventually get around to smacking some self-confidence into you before we both fell off of our stools :rolleyes:

"creativity is not valued"??!!!
ugh... your allowing too much negative thought into your head.
(and the reasons as to why cijori is fanning the flames is perplexing :( ).

Please do me a favor...
email me some of your graphics (so that I can get an idea of your style).

hmmmm....
between you and xx (IXXI) I could probably become an agent and siphon commissions off of you guy's sweat.

Head up...
shoulders back...
killer instinct!!!
(spoken like a true Marine Corps brat. lol)

email me some stuff....

;) k

[Dark Dragon]

:( Not all of us were endowed with confidence and self esteem...

Knocking it into me won't help though...besides, I don't drink either so no bar visits for me;)

[khaki]

You're about to be 24? ummm...
you know better than that (i'm nearly twice your age... remember?)

anyway....
yes Jona sweetie....
I like the non-bold text better (but don't let that stop you from expressing yourself as you wish. I only "suggested" that you change it).

bold without the need to be <b>...
;) k

[khaki]

sorry DD...

i didn't mean to trespass

(and by the way... the greatest artists in the world were depressed and lacking in confidence.... so I expect great things from you :) )

;) k

[Jona]

Oh yeah, I nearly forgot, khaki. You're about to be 28? :p

And I'll use 'no-bold' from now on then. ;)

Jona

[Dark Dragon]

Khaki...you weren't trespassing at all...:)


However you overestimate me...I don't do great things at all..just basic, run of the mill things....:)

[Aronya1]

Dark,

You need to stop crying in your beer at some point. It won't help you. The most important thing you can do is change your attitude & that will be done by decision.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm closing in on 45 (can you hear the collective groans of the kids in this forum?) and didn't do anything with real computers until about 7 or 8 years ago when I went to a 'computer school.' I studied the hardware side of things, then immediately went to work doing software support on the phone - go figure. I have done some of my own hardware work (changed cards out, built a computer for my mother, etc.), but have never worked in the field for which I trained & spent big money.

Much of what you are complaining about I am/have been dealing with. I know nothing about javascript, visual basic, C, or anything else. I can look at a perl script & get some idea of what is going on sometimes, but don't ask me to make changes unless you want to fix 'em. And I don't know squat about creating graphics, either.

BUT I am doing web design in my spare time, creating (and charging for) sites for friends and associates. It's the only way for me to get experience, since I lack the gene that drives people to experiment on their own.

While I was at it, I went into the web hosting business, since the same people who need sites created also need somewhere to put them.

I'm not making huge money on either side of this coin, but things are improving. I get better with each website I create, and the opportunities are multiplying as time goes on. So are my prices (big smile).

I have a couple of suggestions to help improve your attitude, which is going to be the key, IMHO:

If you haven't already done so, start a web design/creation business.

Join a business networking group in your area. They cost money, but it is the absolute best way to gain contacts with people who need your services (they will NOT be searching you out) and who can also afford to pay for them.

Go back to school, even if it's only one class at a time at your local community college.

Do some work for your church, or some other non-profit group, for free. It gives you experience, and also opens other doors.

Take khaki up on her offer. Send her some of your work, or post a link here, and ask for critiques.

Lastly, you could always marry up, go back to school full time, and just tinker with graphics. :)

I hope this helps, but the bottom line is that if you want to get out of your depression, you have to take action.

Good luck.
Aronya1

[Dark Dragon]

1) You need to stop crying in your beer at some point. It won't help you. The most important thing you can do is change your attitude & that will be done by decision.

2) if you want to get out of your depression, you have to take action.



Ah..here we go again..the same platitude wheras I somehow decided to feel this way...

I have tried starting a business however, as I said earlier, I don't have the know-how that people demand....and I do not have oodles of time either. However that needs lots of research and I need to find a way to make it painless and relatively free of hassles too.

Experience is really great..as long as it is pertinent to what I am after...working in a soup kitchen may be cute and all but it means nothing if I am applying for a job as a web designer or something.

I have considered taking a web class that addresses the issues I was complaining about...however, with all the competition to be the best I am just not willing to jump through hoops to be the cream of the crop while paving the way to an early grave. But taking an additional class is just what I may have to do though.

But thanks for the tips.

[Aronya1]

Sorry if you think I'm belittling you. I didn't mean to. But it doesn't make what I said any less true. In a sense you did decide to feel the way you do, or at least you have decided to continue to feel that way.

I don't have lots of time either. You just put in whatever time you can.

You have more know-how than a lot of other people out there, and you can always come here to ask questions about what you don't know. Just keep working at it & things WILL gradually get better & easier.

As far as being the best, I think you're asking for too much if that's your goal. But take that class. You'll feel better. Plus, in my opinion, we all need to stay in school if we intend to compete in this arena. Sad (and expensive) but true, but I'd look at that class as my NEXT class, not an ADDITIONAL one. Then, just take another when this one is thru. I understand the feeling of never being able to catch up, but the reality is... we can't! So we just have to do the best we can with what we know. There IS a market for you out there. You ARE head-and-shoulders above other people in terms of your abilities already, but you are comparing yourself with the best in the business, apparently, and you will come out on the short end of that particular stick every time until you can afford the time & energy to live & breathe "The Web."

I meant to work on a website for the church (or whatever group). That IS the experience you need, and it gives you a no-pressure opportunity to experiment/practice with new techniques, like CSS, which is a big favorite on this site.

Start a web hosting service. It's easy money, relatively speaking. Select a company that lets you resell web space, then offer that service to everyone you create a site for. You won't get rich overnight, but it'll help put bread on the table.

Aronya1

[Dark Dragon]

In a sense you did decide to feel the way you do, or at least you have decided to continue to feel that way.

Like I said, I didn't wake up one day and decide to feel miserable...and I don't make an effort to feel like crud...no matter how much I delude myself.

However...college education is not all it is cracked up to be so I try to teach myself...but maybe a class will help...


:o (sighs) However I guess I may try to start another business like I did the last time...first offer my services for free for a month and start charging...however one of my problems is a constant lack of any confidence and esteem....but again that is my fault too....

Heh...two years in college and where did it get me...I even tried one of those telecommuting services whereas I could work from home but I was given the brush-off and told to "come back when you have more experience"..temp agencies told me the same thing basically...they refused to place me because of my lack of experience..even for entry-level jobs!!!!! :eek: "oi!!!

But you are right in the sense that I see what is being produced and I just cannot compete...I really do not want to do advertising which seems to be commonplace...so I guess I have to be more innovative???

Either that or move to texas and raise emus and hedgehogs:D

[Aronya1]

Either that or move to texas and raise emus and hedgehogs:D [/B][/QUOTE]


NOW you're talking! Frank Zappa would be proud. Do you have a pygmy pony?

[khaki]

hey D's...

try not to get too defensive about the advice :)
you know you better than we know you... so please don't think that people are judging you

but you gotta admit...
between your fatalistic signature ("I wish I was someone else!") and all of your mentions about not being good enough and lacking in self-confidence...
it does paint a dark picture that causes some people (like me :rolleyes: ) to try to "brighten things up" :)

and just so you know...
Aronya1 wasn't suggesting that you volunteer in a soup kitchen.
I believe that me meant to volunteer on working on (or creating) a church website or something :)

and Aronya1...
I know San Marcos!
I had a b/f that lived in Escondido (I was living in PB) and he used to take me out to Lake Wohlford.
I can't tell you how many times I've driven on Rt 78 (right past you!).
I really miss San Diego :( (so never take it for granted!)

hmmm.... now I'm getting depressed....
:( k

EDIT:
hey D's... maybe you'll wind up working in a gas station (zappa reference :rolleyes: )

[Dark Dragon]

Nah...but I would like a pygmy goat...they're kinda cute. But I do have a kitty
:)

But seriously, sometimes this technology seems like more trouble than it is worth...like I said to another earlier, I originally wanted to do character designs for games, manga whatever...at that time I was really gung-ho about it but...things happen....so sometimes I think ai would be better off raising chickens than trying to convince someone how great I am supposed to be...

At least chickens, emus and hedgehogs don't care:D

[Aronya1]

khaki,

I'm trying to buy a house in Escondido right now! It was the first town I lived in when I came out here from Chicago, and looks like it'll be the last one I live in before I leave CA. But the prices! $350,000 for a fixer-upper! I guess we just won't eat. Can't afford the rice & beans AND a house... Maybe we'll just park a beat up old motor home at the beach and collect discarded bottles & cans.


Aronya1

[Dark Dragon]

Reality is still reality....no matter how much I delude myself with platitudes and feel good rhetoric...the reality is that I don't feel the way society tell me to feel.

It is like jumping on a trampoline....the bounce it gives you is like support...you jump higher...but if it just sits there...you don't jump any higher no matter how hard you jump..soon you just stop trying and caring.

you know you better than we know you.

Yes..I do know myself...anyways....what is so fatalistic about my signature?

I didn't say I was gonna feed myself to ravenous weasels did I?...now that's fatalistic!

[Aronya1]

At least chickens, emus and hedgehogs don't care:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, but they won't appreciate what you do for them, either.

DD, do you have a self-promoting website yet? If the answer is no... You know the rest.

Maybe you could team up with somebody else from the school you went to. There's always someone looking for help with the stuff they can't do. You could trade services. They can be the programming guru and you can do the graphics.

[Dark Dragon]

Yeah, but they won't appreciate what you do for them, either.

Heh...maybe..but the same goes for most people too.

I have done self promoting sites but I guess my so-called talents aren't appreciated either. LOL

As for the team up thing...sounds good but I don't know anyone so that is why I want to incorporate a wee bit of Javascript in whatever site I may do...provided browsers become standardized somewhat:D

[Aronya1]

If you want to promote yourself, you need that website. In my opinion, that applies to virtually any business nowadays. No website = less credibility in more and more minds every day.

As far as knowing somebody, that's not a problem. Just contact the school (or maybe a user group of some kind) & they will know who has what abilities. I got an opportunity to make a few bucks tutoring a guy on how to use the Internet when I was in school, just because the teacher knew that I knew a little (emphasize the word 'little') about it back then.

Don't worry about all the reasons why you can't make things happen. Just move forward.

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
........ but I don't know anyone so .....

For what its worth,since I love to write code,You can count me in your team and through me an email any time you want for a prgramming help(see I am no graphic designer as you are ..*_*)

Quita few californians here eh?...:D

Any one lived in the central coast area at all? SLO to be exact (San Luis Obispo)

[Dark Dragon]

No website = less credibility in more and more minds every day.

That initself has become a buzzword too...everyone has a website and it has become the new resume

I mean it is nice but not everything...geez, whatever did people do before computers and web sites :p

Umm..thanks khalidali...but I am no designer either Heh...:D

[Aronya1]

Any one lived in the central coast area at all? SLO to be exact (San Luis Obispo)

No, but I know somebody... Is there a prize involved?

[khalidali63]

:D

Prize??

How about a really annoying Popup maker..lol

Its a small town..I might even know that person..lol

[Jona]

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
Either that or move to [T]exas and raise emus and hedgehogs:D

All right, yeah. Come down to my state! :D Hehe..

Anyways, there is a point needed to be made thoughout all of this. You are who you choose to be and you should be who you want to be, not what others expect you to be. Dont' feel bad about the fact that you, "don't meet expectations." Be glad that you're you and have the ability to do what you can do. You're unique, just like everyone else (in their own way), don't waste yourself dreaming you were, "someone else."

I've known you for about three and a half months now, and I think that you should work at what you can while you can. Be glad you have the opportunity to make any dream you wish come true. In my financial situation, it's possible for me to lose my home and end up in an orphanage (within 30 days). Despair is difficult to deal with, and I understand it. However, my determination and perseverance has not let me down, and will not let me down. I will prosper regardless of any situation that comes to pass, and not because I have a "super brain," but because I am determined that I WILL succeed in all that I do.

You should do that same.

Jona

[khaki]

In my financial situation, it's possible for me to lose my home and end up in an orphanage (within 30 days). :confused:

y'wanna email me some more detail about that so I don't start panicking and begin imagining horrible things?

:( k

[Nevermore]

Talk about depressing!

[Jona]

Originally posted by khaki
y'wanna email me some more detail about that so I don't start panicking and begin imagining horrible things?

Well, I'm just hoping that somehow or other we can make enough extra money to keep our house and stuff. That's all...

Jona

P.S. Gotta go.. Be back later on. I hope.

[Dark Dragon]

You're unique....

:o Unfortunately it is yet another platitude that even as a child I never believed in.

Anyway, I seriously am considering moving further south...warmer climate for one, more variety in what you can grow and perhaps I will find a wee bit better prospect of employment or whatever....maybe:rolleyes:

Or perhaps I should forget about web design and open a coffee shop...or bakery maybe:D

[Jona]

Dark Dragon, consider yourself lucky and don't feel bad about yourself. My situation is more devastating than yours..

Another thing, I wouldn't suggest moving too far south... Here in Texas it's been about 90-some odd degrees lately..

Jona

[Dark Dragon]

:o sighs Whatever...

I was gonna download the IBM WebSphere Application Server program I got with Dreamweaver but I remembered it is just for Windows NT...oh well.

[Khalid Ali]

If you want an app server(for j2ee)?..download bea's weblogic,it works on all environments

[khaki]

hey D's....

any time you just want to chat or blow steam... just email me, okay?

(my addy is in my profile)

okay?

;) k

EDIT:
i'll give you my Yahoo and/or MSN chat addy too... if that's better for you

[Dark Dragon]

Well..actually turning my comp into a server won't accomplish much as I wouldn't know how to use it or what to do with it:D

Umm...thanks Khaki...

[Jona]

Originally posted by khaki
i'll give you my Yahoo and/or MSN chat addy too...

What is your MSN s/n?

Jona

[khaki]

i emailed it to ya

[Jona]

OK, I got it. Thanks. ;)

Jona

[sheila]

Or perhaps I should forget about web design and open a coffee shop...or bakery maybe

If you're this down about technology then maybe you should consider this option more seriously. Feeling like you're failing at a job is a terrible thing to live with (I work in education and see it all the time). :(

Maybe you need a career break. You can always come back to it when you're in a more positive frame of mind. :)

Whatever you do, please don't let work spoil your life. :(

[Dark Dragon]

Technology is highly competitive as well as constantly evolving...in fact ti changes too fast and more people are finding it difficult if not stressful to keep up.

I am not down on technology persay but trying to become marketable is a losing proposition and I am not willing to drive myself into Planet Ulcer to be "on top of it".

I foolishly had infantile dreams and come to realize that I was deluding myself...I am not a fan of the working world as I see my "labor being trivialized, homoginized and outsourced...I do not cherish the {rat race[/I] stlye that many seem to hunger for....as dull and boring as my life is..there are other things than work.

Besides..when push comes to shove...you can eat a bagel but you cannot eat a computer..

(well, you could if you were weird enough) :D

[khaki]

(well, you could if you were weird enough) :eek:
guilty as charged !

(and I almost did eat my computer last night.... but only in self-defense)

wierd... and proud of it...
;) k

[Dark Dragon]

:D Heh...yeah...I commonly mistake my computer for a pizza myself.

Mmmm...Pizza....

[Nevermore]

Pizza? Who has pizza?

[pyro]

Alright, this thread has lost it's usefulness, it appears...