Frustrated

[VB.NET]

Allow me to share my piece of frustration at the moment.

I was offered an internship to do web development in March. Since I emphasized wanting to work with "the latest technology," I started reading a book on ASP.NET in preparation. Well, come June, I start working, and my company basically tells me "forget it, there is no way you can use ASP.NET". The truth is the majority of our applications are still in ASP. I think we might have some stuff in Java and Perl, but ASP is dominate by far.

So I'm sitting here trying to decide if I should use ASP, Java, or what-not. I have worked with ASP before, but I just think it's "a thing of the past." I mean, ASP.NET is here, it's been out for almost 2 years, and clearly it's the path forward (I don't mean it's going to take over the market, but as far as ASP vs ASP.NET). If I had a choice between ASP and ASP.NET, of course I would want to work with the latter, for tomorrow's sake. 5 years from now, if anyone is working with Microsoft technology, it should be closer to ASP.NET than classic ASP. So, I can write ASP code today, but is it going to get me anywhere tomorrow? For all I know, this may be the LAST time I ever write ASP. I hope, anyway.

So what about Java? It's certainly going to be more difficult to learn, but I believe it will be more useful in years to come. Still, I can't decide what I want to use for this project. My company is clear not THERE yet, and I really don't want to code in something inferior and aging, even though I'm more comfortable with ASP. I want a recruiter to look at my resume and say "wow, you worked with some hot new technology" not "oh, you did something useless."

The funny thing is, all this time I had feared not meeting the company's expectations of the "Latest Technology," when in fact they, like most other companies, is hesitant to upgrade.

(our backend: ORACLE)

[khaki]

Originally posted by VB.NET
"forget it, there is no way you can use ASP.NET" that's still the reality out there.

If you think that it takes businesses/corporations a long time to upgrade browsers...
image how long it takes them to scrap a totally workable technology - like ASP (and all of the structures and personell that they have supported it with) in order to switch-over to something that they would have to pay more to use (in both software and people).

if you want to plan 5 years ahead (be careful with that)... so be it.
But you aren't living 5 years from now...
RIGHT NOW is now!!!!

No wonder you are frustrated...
you are looking at this as though it is all about YOU...
when in fact... it is all about the needs of business.

When you get the power to dictate to businesses which technologies they should be using... give me a heads-up call so that I can try to keep-up with the latest changes that you decide on.

Otherwise... just learn and use the skills that are in demand, and keep an eye (and not an attitude) to the future needs of business.

for gosh-sakes... you are only interning.
Someone needs a wake-up call :rolleyes:

a (paid) ASP dinosaur...
;) k

[PeOfEo]

I aggree with you people need to switch to asp.net but think about it in a year or two when companies do switch the demand will boom and you will already know asp.net you are ahead of the curve. I am also going to pick up jsp though too soon. Because I am going to be learning java anyway. It should be fun :)

[PeOfEo]

khaki, I think its about time you bought a nice thick book on asp.net. You would be amazed at the features it gives you. It increases yet even more when you put it on w2k3 server, I mean its amazing it can detect harmful things, like say someone leaves off an end command it my forum I dont have hunt for it the server can detect it so I dont need extra code. It makes it a lot safer for the server when you screw up. Asp.net also reduces server lag. Also this little thing called the view state saves you a whole bunch of work its very cleaver. Like if you were to view a page soruce using .net you would see miles a numbers and letter that take the place of your codeing. Asp.net is very nice and painless all together and you can cranck out powerful applications with the greatest efficancy and ease.

[khaki]

Companies will "switch" when and/or if it is economically and strategically feasible.
They will not "switch" for any other reason.

I agree that those who know and learn ASP.NET now, will be ahead of the curve when/if that time comes (and that's why I've been asking a lot of questions about it lately)...

but as long as companies continue to keep ASP...
they will continue to keep ASP developers on staff.

So, just because something is new... does not mean that it will automatically (and globally) replace what came before it.
(or at least hopefully not before I jump on-board :) lol)

But anyway..
my point was not really anti-ASP.NET...
it was a reaction to the anti-ASP whine from someone who is placing their own career goals against the company who is giving him/her a chance to develop professionally.

That's all.

And I will be heading to the bookstore this weekend to have a look at what it's all about... so yes...
I am taking your advice Peo :)

No shortage of opinions... as always :rolleyes: ...
;) k

[PeOfEo]

I did not say you were anti asp.net and I get what you are saying I just think you have been asking about .net a lot lately and I think you need to run over to barns and noble and get a book on it and learn it. You will not be dissappointed. But dont get instant asp.net applications by greg buczek. Its full of errors and will give you 500's up the ying yang.

[khaki]

B&N...
that's my spot!!!!

thanks for the heads-up about Instant ASP.NET Peo (i'll avoid it).

any recommendations?
;) k

[PeOfEo]

not that I can think of right now, let me see. First off do you know straight up visual basic or c#?

[khaki]

vb

[PeOfEo]

then you should be well off. You know sql correct? Because asp.net is like a mixture of vb sql c# and a tad bit of xml but I only use c# on one file so it can be easy to avoid if you are not top notch on it.

[khaki]

i know enough sql to survive my database needs.

And I got a good book on that (so I'm not worried about sql being a problem for me)

but i gotta say that i was pretty turned-off by all of the C# examples that i've seen being used with NET.
I REALLY don't have time to start learning a language like C# at this point.

That's probably the biggest stumbling block for me now (and why i haven't pulled the trigger on NET yet :rolleyes: )

[PeOfEo]

well the nice thing about asp.net is you can use vb instead of c# I think c# is a pain too so I try to avoid it as much as possible. That is one truely confusing language. Eventually though we both should get good at it. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=asp%2Enet&userid=2WU28UXIJ7&cds2Pid=946 I guess thats your choices. But stay away from anything by buczek. I hear he did a book that is used by many colledges as a text though. I cant figure out if that is a good or bad thing. My hunch is its bad. Buczek just doesnt test his work it seems.

[khaki]

well... lets see...
5 shopping days 'till my birthday! :)

looks like another geek-gift for khaki :rolleyes: lol
(that would be a good one for my oldest brother to get me. Last year he got me a case of wine :) I thought that was kind of wierd... but it was fun! :) )

anyway...
speaking of wine (well... actually margaritas :) ... it's Friday... it's 5pm.... so... it's happy hour!!! :)
)

catch you later!!!
:)

;) k

[PeOfEo]

I thought you said you would not be drinking today in another thread. Wow our birthdays are close together mine is on the 29th, I got cable for my present. I am also looken for a few nice homestarrunner t shirts. But a nice gift certificate to b&n would be nice, I could look at jsp :)

[khaki]

I thought you said you would not be drinking today in another thread good intentions...
bad influences :)

it's Friday....
it's my birthday week...
cut me some slack! :)

really gotta go...

till next time...
;) k

[VB.NET]

I read PROGRAMMING ASP.NET, 2nd ed by Jesse Liberty (O'Reily), and it's not a bad book. It's aimed at beginners who have some experience with VB or C#. All the examples are in both languages (VB.NET & C# that is). Now some quick notes.

No wonder you are frustrated...
you are looking at this as though it is all about YOU...
when in fact... it is all about the needs of business.

Point take, and I would say it's 50-50. The company wants to get deliverables out of me, and I want to get a good experience out of the company. I understand the company's needs, but that doesn't help my frustration very much.

it was a reaction to the anti-ASP whine from someone who is placing their own career goals against the company who is giving him/her a chance to develop professionally.

Face it. ASP is not going to be around for long. ASP.NET will replace it, just like Windows 95 swallowed 3.1. I like working with ASP as much as the guy next door, but I've only learned it a few months ago, so I don't have a passion or nostalgia towards it. & I don't envision it being used much in a few years.

If you can't clearly see the advantages of me working with ASP.NET, I will outline it for you.

working with ASP: I get paid for 2 months, and probably won't use it ever again. Useless. DISADV: I have to experience ASP.NET elsewhere.

working with ASP.NET: I get paid for 2 months, get familiar with the language, use it to sell myself in years to come, and make great use of this experience. DISADV: I don't work with ASP, but that doesn't matter, since it's a thing of the past.

I can see your point on me emphasizing too much on personal career development. But hopefully you can understand the advantages offered by using ASP.NET over ASP. I think it'll be goor for the company anyway. It's just a matter of installing the .NET framework on the server, and they would get a more robust and secure application out of me.

[spufi]

Originally posted by VB.NET It's just a matter of installing the .NET framework on the server, and they would get a more robust and secure application out of me.

Somehow I think it's more than "just installing the .NET framework on the server." ;)

[PeOfEo]

Have you seen how w2k3 server performs vb.net it does some nice little things. Like well its hard to explain but it scans forms and things and will actually make sure if html is used that its valid and all. I like this feature but if interfears it can also be disable and its just little things like that that make it a lot nicer then using an nt server.

[Ribeyed]

Hi VB.NET,
I understand fully where your coming from, what’s the point learning an old technology when the replacement for that old technology has been around for a couple of years now, however I do agree that it is still up to your employer to decide which you should learn.
I am in a very unique position with my employer I decide which technology is used for clients and I have the freedom to move from classic ASP to ASP.NET when I think it’s appropriate. The e-commerce site I have built over the last few years for my employer is all ASP. I see the advantages of ASP.NET over ASP and most other server-side languages, but I can’t justify spending another long period of time changing the site over to ASP.NET. The differences between the 2 far out weight the similarities and both require learning from scratch.
Looking at the work I still have left to do on my employers content management system for there e-commerce site it could be another 6 months before I finish there site completely, but in ASP. My employer has spoken to me about another company e-commerce site. I have already cleared with my boss that this shall be done in ASP.NET, which is fine but I will have a very steep learning curve as again there are major, major differences between ASP and ASP.NET.
So my point is even if your employer wanted to change over to ASP.NET then would have to retrain everyone, finish any current projects being done in ASP and then support an old technology for a number of years there after.
May I suggest something to you? Go with your employer on this and learn ASP, buy yourself a few books on ASP.NET and then learn this in your own time. I know this sucks but myself and I’m sure others on this forum have had to learn most things in there own time.

[PeOfEo]

I have had to learn it all on my free time lol. :D

[VB.NET]

May I suggest something to you? Go with your employer on this and learn ASP, buy yourself a few books on ASP.NET and then learn this in your own time. I know this sucks but myself and I’m sure others on this forum have had to learn most things in there own time.

Hey ribeyed. Of course you can suggest something to me. :) Actually, your suggestion is very valid, and I agree I should learn most things outside the classroom and work - and I have. I have already learned (some basic) ASP.NET on my own before starting this position; I just wanted some practical experience with it. Of course I didn't plan to LEARN any language DURING this internship, even though I ended up learning Perl already ;)

It looks like I will have to go with ASP, since most of our apps are written in it, so I can get some support from our developers. If I wrote in Java or PHP, I would be pretty much on my own. Oh well.

[PeOfEo]

how is old jsp anyway? I am thinking I am going to take that up very soon since I am going to be learning java anyway.

[VB.NET]

Victory... at a cost.

To give an update on the situation, it was a battle-well-fought. After extensive research and meetings, I finally presented the .NET transition plan to my project sponsor, and he and all the developers approved it unanimously. Now it's official that I will develop the web application in ASP.NET.

The victory owes largely to the web server team's decision to support .NET on all their servers. If they did not support .NET, then my team would need to host my application on our own web server, which we don't have, meanwhile spending extra $ on support training, which would have been difficult to justify.

The flip side is that I may have to code in VB.NET rather than C#, which is my preference. This has not been confirmed, so I am still gathering information on which language makes the most sense for our purpose. So far, even the Python/C/Java expert has bowed to VB.NET (even though he prefers C#). So we'll see. It won't kill me to write in VB.NET, but it will give me a few headaches everyday.