Sorry I'm thick !! How to use databases.

[bjoerndalen]

Hi guys!

I'm hoping someone can help me.

I've started looking at database intergration into web sites. However I'm a little confused. Could someone tell me the difference between PHP and ASP? I believe they are both server side scripting languages? Which is the best to try and learn?


I also believe for beginning to learn this aspect of web design you can turn your local machine into a server. What software do you need and is it available free.The same applies to database software as I dont have any.

I am running Windows 98se.

Any other advice or links would be much appreciate. Any recommended books etc...

Thanks Dave :)

[spufi]

PHP is an open source server side language. ASP is MS's server side language. Since you want free stuff, go with PHP. Also look into the Apache server and MySql database. All three of these are open source, free, and work rather well with each other.

[khaki]

Originally posted by spufi
... go with PHP... grrrrrrr.... ;)

sure... PHP is free.

ASP is Microsoft.... who (in case you have been sleeping for the past decade) rules the world.
Which means... they also rule the corporate world and big business.
Which also means that the majority of corporations and big businesses (and all kinds of businesses) run MS (and thus: ASP).

If you want free, and a smaller employment base to use your PHP skills in, or if you wish to freelance... PHP is a no-brainer.


Otherwise... follow the leader (also known as "opportunity").
(and there are free sites available that support ASP... and it requires no additional software to write ASP)

just sayin'... :)
;) k

[jeffmott]

sure... PHP is free.
ASP is Microsoft.... who (in case you have been sleeping for the past decade) rules the world.
Which also means that the majority of corporations and big businesses (and all kinds of businesses) run MS (and thus: ASP).They don't actually rule the Web server world, however. Apache (and thus PHP) is the software loaded onto more servers than all other server software combined.

[Edit] http://news.netcraft.com/

[khaki]

Originally posted by jeffmott
Apache (and thus PHP) is the software loaded onto more servers than all other server software combined.
of course that does NOT take into account the INTRAnet users who make-up a HUGE number of pcs that are NOT included in that statistic.

But whatever...
it's not that important to me (I was just offering a different view... that's all)

PHP your brains out
(see if I care :) )

all hail King Bill...
;) k

[spufi]

Ok, the question was the best to try and learn. Looking at what khaki is saying, it depends on what the end goal is. If it is to learn and thus at some point become employed doing this, then yes, learning ASP is going to give a person the most opportunities. It doesn't mean you are out in the cold by not learning ASP though. It just means in today's market, MS rules. However, since going the MS route with using ASP and whatnot isn't free, it would suck big time to try and learn it only to find out it's not really what the person wanted to get into. This is why they asked for possible free software, and thus it's why the Apache/PHP/MySQL route is a no-brainer in this case.

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by khaki
ASP is Microsoft.... who (in case you have been sleeping for the past decade) rules the world.Originally posted by khaki
all hail King Bill...
You know, the first time you said something like that, I thought you were kidding(like most people would be)... Do you really believe that MS owns the whole world and everyone should bow to them??? :confused:

And my short recommendations for bjoerndalen... ;) If you know any C, C++, JavaScript, etc. learn PHP. If you know Visual Basic(or any other that use the VB style), learn ASP. It is much easier to go in-between like languages... :)

[PeOfEo]

You guys completly forget about cgi, which language was the original :) All the others are just copy cats! And also if you know visual basic adam dont learn asp because asp use vb script... learn asp.net it uses straight up vb.

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
You guys completly forget about cgi, which language was the original :) All the others are just copy cats! And also if you know visual basic adam dont learn asp because asp use vb script... learn asp.net it uses straight up vb. Well, I'm sure you would agree that CGI/Perl is going out and PHP and ASP are coming in. ;) If you are going to learn one of them now, I wouldn't suggest CGI to anyone.

I know that ASP uses VBScript, but it is still closer to Visual Basic then it is to C. ;) Actually, though, for anyone starting out, it seems logical to learn ASP .NET(like you said) not ASP... Why learn an older version when there is a newer one? At least that is my opinion... :)

[PeOfEo]

True cgi is getting a bit old and crusty lol. Isn't a new version of php set to come out soon or something? I heard soomething about that someplace.

[khaki]

You know, the first time you said something like that, I thought you were kidding(like most people would be)... Do you really believe that MS owns the whole world and everyone should bow to them??? Your not sure if I'm kidding? :)

I am euphoric from the air of mystery that surrounds me :)

keepin' em guessin'...
;) k

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by khaki
Your not sure if I'm kidding? :)

I am euphoric from the air of mystery that surrounds me :)

keepin' em guessin'...
;) k right... now you have me guessing about your sanity lol :D

[khaki]

my sanity has always been at question...

it's my seriousness that remains the unknown :)

...and I guess I don't need to repeat myself about the ASP vs ASP.NET issue.
(but I will ;) )
Companies spring for the new technologies only when it is strategically and economically necessary.

ASP will live for a long time.

(by the way... can anyone point to the fortune 500 companys that have created thier sites using ASP.NET or PHP. I'm sure there must be some... so I'm just curious as to which ones specifically)

serious?... who?... me? ...
;) k

[khaki]

...and since Jeff offered some stats...

http://www.port80software.com/servermask/top1000webservers/

ya want 15 year-olds with Apache servers in thier bedrooms deciding which direction to go...
or the big boys (who pay)?

just sayin' :)
;) k

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
You guys completly forget about cgi, which language was the originalCGI isn't a language. It is an interface for connecting external applications with servers. A CGI script can be written in Perl, C/C++, Visual Basic, PHP, etc. Perhaps as AdamBrill suggested, you meant Perl?

[bjoerndalen]

Man .. you guys know how to wind each other up..

Ok...Stop me if I get it wrong.

PHP and MySQL and Apache is one configuration that works well and is free.

The other is ASP which uses Microsoft severs...Which database software does this work with? Again I presume Access is the answer this being Microsoft software.

I know a little JavaScript and would probably take the advice and go the PHP way. However how different is ASP to PHP..

Which is the more powerful tool?

If I was to go down the ASP route is there any free downloads you know of.The reason being I cant afford a vast expenditure on software .

Same question again.Any books or sites you could recommend??

I am a wannabe designer with limited funds but if the ASP route is going to be the most useful then that may be the way to go. How easy is it to swap from using PHP to ASP.

Thanks guys ...

I can't wait for the response...just to see who gets revved up...

seconds out round 2 ....ding!!

Dave :D

[pyro]

Originally posted by bjoerndalen
PHP and MySQL and Apache is one configuration that works well and is free.
Correct. Though it isn't the only configuration. For instance, you could use PHP, Apache, and PostgreSQL.

However how different is ASP to PHP..
Hmm... From what I know of ASP (which is very little), I'd say they are fairly different.

Which is the more powerful tool?
Depends. If you are compairing ASP.NET with PHP4, probably ASP.NET. BUT, this fall, PHP5 is set to be released. You can already download the beta. Oh, the joy!

Same question again.Any books or sites you could recommend??
http://www.php.net (my personal favorite)
http://www.phpbuilder.com/
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/programming/php/index.html
http://php.resourceindex.com
more links can be found at http://www.php.net/links.php

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
Why learn an older version when there is a newer one? At least that is my opinion... :)

We are alwayse getting newer stuff... we just have to keep up, so there is a never-ending supply of "old stuff" But I myself am looking for a serverside language to learn, and I am not sure which one creats better forms or better webpages either will do... So someone let me know.

[spufi]

Just to add to the confusion, Brinkster is a web host that allows free use of ASP with MySQL. Yes, MySQL can interact with more than just PHP for server side code. So, if a person wants to use a website to learn ASP for free, they can. This does limit the person to uploading their code to Brinkster to see if it works in a temp section, and when it does, moving it to the actual domain. So, learning ASP is cheap. Learning other MS stuff to go along with it, is not.

[jeffmott]

...and since Jeff offered some stats...
http://www.port80software.com/serve...1000webservers/
ya want 15 year-olds with Apache servers in thier bedrooms deciding which direction to go...
or the big boys (who pay)?The fact is that there may be some bias with both statistic results. Apache, being a free server, will probably used by all those "little guys" and netstat registers each one equally. port80's bias comes from the fact that they sell IIS modules. A boost in IIS sales would mean a boost in their sales.

So, what I ended up doing is (using port80's checker) test all the sites in my favorites, excluding any that are obviously personal sites and any where there might be a biased decision in which server software to use (e.g., apache.com or microsoft.com). The total sites tested were 73. Not enough to be considered an accurate statistic, but I would also like you to add to this list with your own bookmarked sites. Also, if you feel some sites that I have tested should not be included, let me know that as well.

The results I received were:
Apache: 49%
IIS: 30%
Other stuff: whatever's left over

[jeffmott]

But I myself am looking for a serverside language to learnI personally feel CGI is still the best way to go. You are not restricted to any one language. If your program requirs ease to maintian and modify, you can choose to write your programs in Perl. If your programs require speed, then you can write your programs in C/C++.

Also, the "simpler" programming of an Internet specific language mostly comes from built-it functions that would commonly be used. These same functions can be just as accessible in general purpose languages in the form of libraries. And if one of those libraries happens to have a bug or exhibits a certain behavior you don't want, you always have the choice to use a different library file. You do not have this same choice with Internet specific languages.

As for which is in more demand (between CGI and PHP), I don't know of any statistics (or in what way they will be biased ;) ). My only guide at the moment is the number of available pre-written scripts at php- or cgi- .resourceindex.com

1,890 PHP scripts at php.resourceindex.com and
3,384 CGI scripts at cgi.resourceindex.com

[PeOfEo]

Actually khaki a lot of large companies are making the switch now. www.battle.net/forums.shtml the index there is shtml but everything else is asp.net, also msn who used a lot of asp seems to be moving to its parent comany the 'evil' microsofts newest technology plus I see a lot of other .com companies with an aspx file type in their address these days. The switch is happening so it is important to know the .net

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by pyro
CGI isn't a language. It is an interface for connecting external applications with servers. A CGI script can be written in Perl, C/C++, Visual Basic, PHP, etc. Perhaps as AdamBrill suggested, you meant Perl? No I know that perl is the language but I incrrecly referr to all server side technolgys as languages for some reason, for instance asp is vb script asp.net is vb and c# jsp is javaq yet I for some reason call them all languages, I dont know I should start calling them processes because that is what they really are its just an old habit of mine.

[bjoerndalen]

I've opened a can of worms here...

To be honest I didnt realise that there were so many different technologies out there...

And I thought catering for various browsers was difficult!!!

I guess its like anything to do with web development. Nothing stays a permanent technology as newer technologies come along and then we are all supposed to learn the new one to keep up.

I guess its good in some respects but the frequency in which these come along is so fast that no sooner you've got your head round one thing you have to go again...


I'd like to thank everyone for their comments...

I'm still not sure which way to jump..

I think I need a lay down...CGI, ASP,ASP.net,PHP ,C,C++,Visual Basic,Perl,Apache,IIS,Javascript,shtml,ASPX....

Easy this game isnt it.
:confused: :D :)

[fallenonline]

No I know that perl is the language but I incrrecly referr to all server side technolgys as languages for some reason, for instance asp is vb script asp.net is vb and c# jsp is javaq yet I for some reason call them all languages, I dont know I should start calling them processes because that is what they really are its just an old habit of mine.

erm... i'm confused now.

so asp isn't actually a language?

sorry, i've never used any of those before and i don't know anything about it... i always assumed asp was a language.

i've never seen an article or anything clarifying exactly what these things are, just how to use them instead.