Jonathan
07-02-2003, 05:50 PM
Which language should I learn? I dont know which language can create better webpages, someone please help! I need to learn a good language...
Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : <hassle>CONFUSION!!!</hassle>
AdamBrill
07-02-2003, 06:18 PM
Umm... You forgot PHP, which would have been my vote. :D :D
spufi
07-02-2003, 06:27 PM
Define "better." ;)
Jonathan
07-02-2003, 06:32 PM
spufi: Define "better."
Better looking web pages OR working forms
Better looking web pages OR working forms
brendandonhue
07-02-2003, 06:43 PM
Better looking is in the hands of the creator.
To design webpages, you MUST know HTML (I know, someone can probably argue that, but still, HTML is the language of web design).
But from the beginning of HTML-learn it the right way, which means using CSS for layout.
Once you master HTML, for more advanced languages, I suggest PHP.
But you probably can't start by learning HTML and PHP at the same time.
To design webpages, you MUST know HTML (I know, someone can probably argue that, but still, HTML is the language of web design).
But from the beginning of HTML-learn it the right way, which means using CSS for layout.
Once you master HTML, for more advanced languages, I suggest PHP.
But you probably can't start by learning HTML and PHP at the same time.
brendandonhue
07-02-2003, 06:45 PM
And HTML/JavaScript can not truly process forms. Serverisde languages are required for that, but there are very simple prewritten scripts for doing email/database form type stuff.
Charles
07-02-2003, 06:58 PM
If you are working on web pages then you absolutely must master HTML. That means read, mark learn and inwardly digest The 4.01 Spec and the WCAG 1.0 ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/). And, of course you will need CSS (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/) to make your pages at all interesting. Those three are the essential foundation. From there it really depends upon what, exactly you see yourself doing. As brendandonhue has also pointed out, JavaScript is a must if you are working with forms, but you must always keep in mind that the page needs to work well when JavaScript is not enabled. Personally I have found a knowledge of Perl to really help in my understanding of JavaScript and to be a joy in and of itself, but that's just me.
brendandonhue
07-02-2003, 07:00 PM
I have to disagree with your first "tutorial" being the W3's specification. WAAAAY to complicated, and overdetailed, for someone who has never seen an HTML tag or seen the basic ones.
Exuro
07-03-2003, 12:26 PM
Well, if you don't even know HTML you should probably learn that before diving into more complicated things like JavaScript, DHTML, PHP, Ect. http://www.htmlgoodies.com is a great place to start!
brendandonhue
07-03-2003, 12:36 PM
Yes, I like HTML goodies. Multiple people will probably complain that "it teaches non-standard html" and its outdated.
But its better than getting confused by trying to read a hundred page technical specification
But its better than getting confused by trying to read a hundred page technical specification
Charles
07-03-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Exuro
Well, if you don't even know HTML you should probably learn that before diving into more complicated things like JavaScript, DHTML, PHP, Ect. http://www.htmlgoodies.com is a great place to start! You won't learn HTML from the HTML Goodies site. It's full of inacurate and incomplete information.
Well, if you don't even know HTML you should probably learn that before diving into more complicated things like JavaScript, DHTML, PHP, Ect. http://www.htmlgoodies.com is a great place to start! You won't learn HTML from the HTML Goodies site. It's full of inacurate and incomplete information.
Jonathan
07-03-2003, 12:38 PM
I know HTML and CSS fairly well... enough to make a cool website... But I need something or a server-side language that will allow me to create forms... I dont know which language does that. If anyone knows of any pre-made things let me know... but I am really looking to learn a server side language... (let the tutorials be easy... I am only 14)
PeOfEo
07-03-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Charles
You won't learn HTML from the HTML Goodies site. It's full of inacurate and incomplete information. Not neccisarily. HTML goodies has some very good tutorials there that are good for novice designers. Of cource you need to learn from more then one source but when I first started I uses goodies and I dont regret it, I learned a lot from that site. Dont rag on goodies man!
You won't learn HTML from the HTML Goodies site. It's full of inacurate and incomplete information. Not neccisarily. HTML goodies has some very good tutorials there that are good for novice designers. Of cource you need to learn from more then one source but when I first started I uses goodies and I dont regret it, I learned a lot from that site. Dont rag on goodies man!
PeOfEo
07-03-2003, 12:43 PM
Jonathan, I would reccommend asp.net but thats just because thats what I use :) But are you really sure you are ready to learn something like asp.net or php? I mean you have to be top notch with your html first.
Jonathan
07-03-2003, 12:43 PM
Yeah!, I learned HTML and JAVASCRIPT from the goodies book
Charles
07-03-2003, 12:45 PM
If http://www.crosspoint.org/ is one of your sites then no, you don't know HTML. See http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crosspoint.org%2Fhome.html. And you're trying to use HTML 4.0 Transitional. You ought to be using HTML 4.01 Strict.
abectech
07-03-2003, 12:46 PM
You must learn HTML first it’s the only way to understand what’s going on at all and its quite simple. I like HTML goodies I think it’s a great way to learn the basics however it is not the best source for full HTML information. After you have a firm grasp on HTML I would suggest learning PHP. With these two languages you can basically create any type of site or create any function.
Jonathan
07-03-2003, 12:48 PM
that is just my church website.. I will be taking over that site in a year... my website is my school website... http://www.washoe.k12.nv.us/wooster/
PeOfEo
07-03-2003, 12:48 PM
charles you should have seen that site a month ago, he is improving. :D Which is a good thing I might add!... !!!
Jonathan
07-03-2003, 12:50 PM
thank you! some apreciation! :)
PeOfEo
07-03-2003, 12:51 PM
That is actually not that bad in the validator. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washoe.k12.nv.us%2Fwooster%2F If you take a look at the error messages it is mainly sissy alt tag stuff, make sure you use an alt tag in your images it makes the validator go crazy if you dont :)
Jonathan
07-03-2003, 12:51 PM
And you're trying to use HTML 4.0 Transitional. You ought to be using HTML 4.01 Strict.
What does that mean??!
What does that mean??!
PeOfEo
07-03-2003, 12:53 PM
Well the way I see it you have only 4 legit errors in your code there, all of those things that say alt is not specified is where you forgot an alt tag and that is not valid. Go back to all of your images and in the image tag put alt="imagename" or something. Browsers like to use the image names for loading or something, atleast thats what the w3 will tell you but I have never seen that. :) And what charles says about the 4.01 stuff thats just you are not technically using the newest version.
Jonathan
07-03-2003, 12:55 PM
noted
abectech
07-03-2003, 01:02 PM
HTML is easy and PHP is kinda like HTML so it is the fastest and easiest way to be sucessful.
PeOfEo
07-03-2003, 01:04 PM
I dont know, php always looked more like java script to me. I also dont aggree I picked up asp.net in a little over a month, Because I already had known vb for like almost two years or course (though I am still learning a few new tricks every so often). SQL statments were my stumbling block. You cant make a judgement like this one is the fastest or something like that though, you can say its the fastest for me though or something like that but I would think its different for everybody.
Charles
07-03-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
What does that mean??! If you knew HTMLthen you would know. Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the document at http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/.
What does that mean??! If you knew HTMLthen you would know. Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the document at http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/.
Charles
07-03-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by PeOfEo
it is mainly sissy alt tag stuffThe "alt" attribute is there to keep the page accessible to persons using Braille and audio browsers. Do you really mean to be so disdainful of the needs of the blind?
it is mainly sissy alt tag stuffThe "alt" attribute is there to keep the page accessible to persons using Braille and audio browsers. Do you really mean to be so disdainful of the needs of the blind?
abectech
07-03-2003, 02:54 PM
i can send you a php file that will allow you to process any form assuming that your host allows PHP. it is very easy to use and only requires HTML knowlege to operate the program. It also will give you the flexibility to change it as your skills in PHP increase. email me at ryan@abectech.com and I will help you get your form up and running.
Jona
07-03-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
Which language should I learn? I dont know which language can create better webpages, someone please help! I need to learn a good language...
First of all, I don't know how you could make a Web page with C++ or C#, as those are not Web-langauges. Anyways, as Charles has stated, HTML is where you begin. Learning HTML is not as simple as it appears, which is why HTMLGoodies.com is not a very good site. I can give you a quote from one of the tutorials, which states the following:
From: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primer_2.html
Here's a sample page to show you what I mean for you to do tonight:
<HTML>
<TITLE> My first html page </TITLE>
<B>This is my first HTML page!</B><P>
I can write in <I>Italic</I> or <B>Bold</B><BR>
<HR>
<B><I>Or I can write in both</I></B><BR>
<HR>
<TT>...and that's all</TT>
</HTML>
As you can see, he provides the above example HTML code as code to follow. The above is invalid HTML, and should be written as such:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html lang="en">
<head><title> My first html page </title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name="Content-Style-Type" content="text/css">
</head>
<body>
<p style="font-weight:bold;">This is my first HTML page!</p>
<p>I can write in <i>Italic</i> or <b>Bold</b></p>
<hr>
<p style="font-weight:bold; font-style:italic;">Or I can write in both</p>
<hr>
<p><tt>...and that's all</tt></p>
</body></html>
Joe Burns also states, in another document, that it is not required to have the HEAD tag at all. His tutorials are helpful when learning to render and do simple markup, however, he teaches improper use of HTML entities, and uses the HTML 3.2 DTD when and if he uses it. He does not teach proper use of markup. That is why the W3C's reference to HTML is much more useful than that tutorial site.
All credit from my post goes directly to Charles--thanks to him I know all I know now (about HTML). Thanks, Charles. :)
[J]ona
Which language should I learn? I dont know which language can create better webpages, someone please help! I need to learn a good language...
First of all, I don't know how you could make a Web page with C++ or C#, as those are not Web-langauges. Anyways, as Charles has stated, HTML is where you begin. Learning HTML is not as simple as it appears, which is why HTMLGoodies.com is not a very good site. I can give you a quote from one of the tutorials, which states the following:
From: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primer_2.html
Here's a sample page to show you what I mean for you to do tonight:
<HTML>
<TITLE> My first html page </TITLE>
<B>This is my first HTML page!</B><P>
I can write in <I>Italic</I> or <B>Bold</B><BR>
<HR>
<B><I>Or I can write in both</I></B><BR>
<HR>
<TT>...and that's all</TT>
</HTML>
As you can see, he provides the above example HTML code as code to follow. The above is invalid HTML, and should be written as such:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html lang="en">
<head><title> My first html page </title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name="Content-Style-Type" content="text/css">
</head>
<body>
<p style="font-weight:bold;">This is my first HTML page!</p>
<p>I can write in <i>Italic</i> or <b>Bold</b></p>
<hr>
<p style="font-weight:bold; font-style:italic;">Or I can write in both</p>
<hr>
<p><tt>...and that's all</tt></p>
</body></html>
Joe Burns also states, in another document, that it is not required to have the HEAD tag at all. His tutorials are helpful when learning to render and do simple markup, however, he teaches improper use of HTML entities, and uses the HTML 3.2 DTD when and if he uses it. He does not teach proper use of markup. That is why the W3C's reference to HTML is much more useful than that tutorial site.
All credit from my post goes directly to Charles--thanks to him I know all I know now (about HTML). Thanks, Charles. :)
[J]ona
brendandonhue
07-03-2003, 03:27 PM
Jona-You can use CGI as an interface to use C++ apps on the web.
Jona
07-03-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by brendandonhue
Jona-You can use CGI as an interface to use C++ apps on the web.
Ah yes, thanks for reminding me. C can be used, as Perl can, to process CGI scripts. Although, I prefer Perl over C.
[J]ona
Jona-You can use CGI as an interface to use C++ apps on the web.
Ah yes, thanks for reminding me. C can be used, as Perl can, to process CGI scripts. Although, I prefer Perl over C.
[J]ona
spufi
07-03-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
that is just my church website.. I will be taking over that site in a year... my website is my school website... http://www.washoe.k12.nv.us/wooster/
Based on some of you post, sorry if I join Charles in agreeing that you don't know HTML/CSS all that well. The fact that you don't know the difference between a Trans Doctype and a Strict one isn't helping your case either. Your early work on the church site screams newbie, and I wonder just how much of the school site you did from scratch. Even though it looks good, and has few validation errors, there's pretty much no CSS used which does little in proving you know it. The design relies heavy on tables doing the work. Hey, if you want to prove Charles and I wrong, go for it.
And I'm sorry, but HTML Goodies is a joke of a web site to learn how to make web pages from. I went there recently to look around and I left in disgust. Using W3C Schools and W3C's validator will get you much farther along towards learning HTML/CSS than what HTML Goodies will.
that is just my church website.. I will be taking over that site in a year... my website is my school website... http://www.washoe.k12.nv.us/wooster/
Based on some of you post, sorry if I join Charles in agreeing that you don't know HTML/CSS all that well. The fact that you don't know the difference between a Trans Doctype and a Strict one isn't helping your case either. Your early work on the church site screams newbie, and I wonder just how much of the school site you did from scratch. Even though it looks good, and has few validation errors, there's pretty much no CSS used which does little in proving you know it. The design relies heavy on tables doing the work. Hey, if you want to prove Charles and I wrong, go for it.
And I'm sorry, but HTML Goodies is a joke of a web site to learn how to make web pages from. I went there recently to look around and I left in disgust. Using W3C Schools and W3C's validator will get you much farther along towards learning HTML/CSS than what HTML Goodies will.
James L.
07-04-2003, 12:48 AM
To be constructive:
Check out these 2 books:
SAMS TEACH YOURSELF HTML and XHTML IN 24 HOURS
- A good book as he stresses following the W3 specs, and strongly encourages the user to get used to xhtml formatting right away. VERY easy to read!
- SAMS TEACH YOURSELF CSS IN 24 HOURS
- I enjoyed learning from this one back in the day as the author clearly explains the use of the Doctype and validating code, then goes through all of the elements of CSS (well, all of them at the time the book was written). Each technique has a browser report card to explain browser support, and if there are browser errors the author endevours to explain a work around for it. Again, VERY easy read!
Once you are really comfortable with the above, I would work hard on Javascript. When I learned design I focused completely on client side at first to lay a really strong foundation, then I made the move to server side.
...hope this helps!
Check out these 2 books:
SAMS TEACH YOURSELF HTML and XHTML IN 24 HOURS
- A good book as he stresses following the W3 specs, and strongly encourages the user to get used to xhtml formatting right away. VERY easy to read!
- SAMS TEACH YOURSELF CSS IN 24 HOURS
- I enjoyed learning from this one back in the day as the author clearly explains the use of the Doctype and validating code, then goes through all of the elements of CSS (well, all of them at the time the book was written). Each technique has a browser report card to explain browser support, and if there are browser errors the author endevours to explain a work around for it. Again, VERY easy read!
Once you are really comfortable with the above, I would work hard on Javascript. When I learned design I focused completely on client side at first to lay a really strong foundation, then I made the move to server side.
...hope this helps!
Charles
07-04-2003, 05:01 AM
I'm not familiar with those books, but I was very happy with Sam's Teach Yourself Perl in 21 Days.
_LOBO_
07-04-2003, 06:13 AM
You Forgot ACTIONSCRIPT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_LOBO_ :D
_LOBO_ :D
Jonathan
07-04-2003, 04:22 PM
I have only been doing this on/off for about 3 months, so technicaly I am a newbie, but now it is a little better...
Jona
07-04-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
I have only been doing this on/off for about 3 months, so technicaly I am a newbie, but now it is a little better...
It is a definite improvement!!
[J]ona
I have only been doing this on/off for about 3 months, so technicaly I am a newbie, but now it is a little better...
It is a definite improvement!!
[J]ona
Jonathan
07-04-2003, 04:48 PM
I guess so.
PeOfEo
07-05-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Charles
The "alt" attribute is there to keep the page accessible to persons using Braille and audio browsers. Do you really mean to be so disdainful of the needs of the blind? I know we should be making our pages accessable for all people but how many blind people actually have computers? I just want some figure. Low traffic sites like a church site will not draw many blind people I am affraid. Deaf people maybe (my church has a deaf ministry). But If it were a major traffic site you might be real careful with that sort of thing, or some sort of a site that sells things to blind people or something, or maybe the school for the blind and the deaf would need that sort of site. But on sites like his isnt there a point where you draw a line. I dont thing he will be getting any hits from lynx eather if you ask me.
The "alt" attribute is there to keep the page accessible to persons using Braille and audio browsers. Do you really mean to be so disdainful of the needs of the blind? I know we should be making our pages accessable for all people but how many blind people actually have computers? I just want some figure. Low traffic sites like a church site will not draw many blind people I am affraid. Deaf people maybe (my church has a deaf ministry). But If it were a major traffic site you might be real careful with that sort of thing, or some sort of a site that sells things to blind people or something, or maybe the school for the blind and the deaf would need that sort of site. But on sites like his isnt there a point where you draw a line. I dont thing he will be getting any hits from lynx eather if you ask me.
PeOfEo
07-05-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Jona
[font=arial][color=maroon]First of all, I don't know how you could make a Web page with C++ or C#, as those are not Web-langauges. microsoft has plenty of .net programs that can do this and what about asp.net that uses c#. Also, so what if html goodies has some false information hello get real, none of these sites are without error somewhere. Also, from my knowledge, an <html> tag is not nessisary which I think is what you were commenting on, In some instances only a doc type is nessisary like with older versions of html this is true. Quit picking on goodies, the nicest thing about goodies is the fact that it is easy to understand the way he explains things, to an html newbie its nice to not have to read something like stereo instructions when you want to learn something.
[font=arial][color=maroon]First of all, I don't know how you could make a Web page with C++ or C#, as those are not Web-langauges. microsoft has plenty of .net programs that can do this and what about asp.net that uses c#. Also, so what if html goodies has some false information hello get real, none of these sites are without error somewhere. Also, from my knowledge, an <html> tag is not nessisary which I think is what you were commenting on, In some instances only a doc type is nessisary like with older versions of html this is true. Quit picking on goodies, the nicest thing about goodies is the fact that it is easy to understand the way he explains things, to an html newbie its nice to not have to read something like stereo instructions when you want to learn something.
Jonathan
07-06-2003, 12:07 AM
lol
Jona
07-06-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by PeOfEo
microsoft has plenty of .net programs that can do this and what about asp.net that uses c#. Also, so what if html goodies has some false information hello get real, none of these sites are without error somewhere. Also, from my knowledge, an <html> tag is not nessisary which I think is what you were commenting on, In some instances only a doc type is nessisary like with older versions of html this is true. Quit picking on goodies, the nicest thing about goodies is the fact that it is easy to understand the way he explains things, to an html newbie its nice to not have to read something like stereo instructions when you want to learn something.
Everything I said is valid. It points out the errors in the HTMLGoodies.com site. I was simply stating facts, although I do agree that the way he explains things makes it simple for the "newbie."
As for the C++/C# thing, I meant that only (X)HTML can be used to make a Web page...
[J]ona
microsoft has plenty of .net programs that can do this and what about asp.net that uses c#. Also, so what if html goodies has some false information hello get real, none of these sites are without error somewhere. Also, from my knowledge, an <html> tag is not nessisary which I think is what you were commenting on, In some instances only a doc type is nessisary like with older versions of html this is true. Quit picking on goodies, the nicest thing about goodies is the fact that it is easy to understand the way he explains things, to an html newbie its nice to not have to read something like stereo instructions when you want to learn something.
Everything I said is valid. It points out the errors in the HTMLGoodies.com site. I was simply stating facts, although I do agree that the way he explains things makes it simple for the "newbie."
As for the C++/C# thing, I meant that only (X)HTML can be used to make a Web page...
[J]ona
Charles
07-06-2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by PeOfEo
I know we should be making our pages accessable for all people but how many blind people actually have computers? I just want some figure. Low traffic sites like a church site will not draw many blind people I am affraid. Deaf people maybe (my church has a deaf ministry). But If it were a major traffic site you might be real careful with that sort of thing, or some sort of a site that sells things to blind people or something, or maybe the school for the blind and the deaf would need that sort of site. But on sites like his isnt there a point where you draw a line. I dont thing he will be getting any hits from lynx eather if you ask me. So you do mean to be so disdainful of the needs of the blind. While it's true that Churches are specifically exempt from the Title III requirements of he ADA (but not the Title I requirements and the ADA does apply to the internet) the requirements of the Gospel are a different matter. What does it say about the good news of God in Christ if it's not worth the slight effort it takes to make your page accessible?
I know we should be making our pages accessable for all people but how many blind people actually have computers? I just want some figure. Low traffic sites like a church site will not draw many blind people I am affraid. Deaf people maybe (my church has a deaf ministry). But If it were a major traffic site you might be real careful with that sort of thing, or some sort of a site that sells things to blind people or something, or maybe the school for the blind and the deaf would need that sort of site. But on sites like his isnt there a point where you draw a line. I dont thing he will be getting any hits from lynx eather if you ask me. So you do mean to be so disdainful of the needs of the blind. While it's true that Churches are specifically exempt from the Title III requirements of he ADA (but not the Title I requirements and the ADA does apply to the internet) the requirements of the Gospel are a different matter. What does it say about the good news of God in Christ if it's not worth the slight effort it takes to make your page accessible?
spufi
07-06-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by PeOfEo
I dont thing he will be getting any hits from lynx eather if you ask me.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html
Technical Guidelines:
Use a text browser such as Lynx to examine your site, because most search engine spiders see your site much as Lynx would. If fancy features such as Javascript, cookies, session ID's, frames, DHTML, or Flash keep you from seeing all of your site in a text browser, then search engine spiders may have trouble crawling your site.
I dont thing he will be getting any hits from lynx eather if you ask me.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html
Technical Guidelines:
Use a text browser such as Lynx to examine your site, because most search engine spiders see your site much as Lynx would. If fancy features such as Javascript, cookies, session ID's, frames, DHTML, or Flash keep you from seeing all of your site in a text browser, then search engine spiders may have trouble crawling your site.
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