Just getting started and would like some advice..

[GMan]

hello all,

my son and I have just started looking at website design. he is 13 and I am 44. he is looking at learning it for when he gets out of school as a way to earn a living and I am looking at is as maybe a way to start a new career.

we have a few questions. I know he is not too young to start learning it for a future career but am I too old to start thinking of this venue as a new career? and if not what ballpark income figure do people make in this career?

do you need a college degree to work in this field? from what i have read looking through some sites, there are alot of self taught individuals in this field.

also where would be a good starting point and all. we have done the HTML primer on HTML Goodies web site and we both built a couple of very basic web pages, nothing we are going to put out on the web yet because we are still playing with them.

we both are having fun with it but havent got too much into the technical areas of it yet.

we both basically would like to know what the present and future outlook is for webdesigners, do you need a college degree, what the income is like (would it be a worthwhile career), and where to start and should we use a comercial webauthoring tool or just stick with notepad and html for now?

as you can see we really are new to this and would appreciate the guidance. i am in sales right now and the market is down for my product so i have some free time for learning and my son is on summer break so he has free time also.

what kind of time estimated time frame would i be looking at before i could try working in this field either for a company or freelance? i know everyone is different and there are learning curves just wanted an estimate.

also we have been using notepad to write the HTML but have just recently realized that I have Frontpage Express as part of my IE. is Frontpage Express a good tool?

thanks

[Jona]

Originally posted by GMan
[W]e have a few questions. I know he is not too young to start learning it for a future career but am I too old to start thinking of this venue as a new career?

I wouldn't say he's too young. I'm fourteen, and I started doing Web development at the age of thirteen.
I doubt you're too old. Learning Web development takes much skill, but more than that, it requires a willingness to be corrected and to learn.

Originally posted by GMan
[D]o you need a college degree to work in this field? [F]rom what i have read looking through some sites, there are alot of self taught individuals in this field.

I don't have a college degree, although I hope to get one as soon as I get out of high-school. I've taught myself most of everything I know, with JavaScript help on a few things, and recently I've learned that there is more to Web development than simple markup (HTML/XHTML).

Originally posted by GMan
[A]lso where would be a good starting point and all. we have done the HTML primer on HTML Goodies web site and we both built a couple of very basic web pages, nothing we are going to put out on the web yet because we are still playing with them.

The HTMLGoodies Web site teaches invalid use of markup. Although it does provide a simple introduction, its validity is very questionable. I suggest www.w3schools.com and www.w3.org (official World Wide Web Consortium site).

Originally posted by GMan
[A]nd where to start and should we use a comercial webauthoring tool or just stick with notepad and html for now?

Many Web developers use Microsoft FrontPage or Macromedia DreamWeaver. Unfortunately, I've never had the money to purchase any WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) editors; so I use Notepad exclusively for all of my Web development.

Originally posted by GMan
[W]hat kind of time estimated time frame would i be looking at before i could try working in this field either for a company or freelance? i know everyone is different and there are learning curves just wanted an estimate.

It can be a learning steep, at times. I started learning HTML last year in May. It depends on just how much free time you have on your hands. Although, I've had school during some of the year, I spend my free time working and learning on the computer. Thus, I've learned proper use of HTML, CSS, and have learned to program in JavaScript and a lot of PHP within a year.
Note: This was not to boast at my, "speedy skills," but to answer your question.

Originally posted by GMan
[A]lso we have been using notepad to write the HTML but have just recently realized that I have Frontpage Express as part of my IE. is Frontpage Express a good tool?

If you are using Windows 98, I have had the privaledge of using the FrontPage version that comes with Windows. It is not difficult to use, but I've never checked to see whether or not it generates invalid markup. If it does, you're best off sticking with Notepad. You can check to see if your pages are valid HTML at http://validator.w3.org/. Please, remember that if you are using HTML to use the HTML 4.01 DTD (Document Type Definition), and not HTML 4.0 or HTML 3.2.
As I said before, I use Notepad as my editor, and it suits me well.

[J]ona

[James L.]

Hello.

Never too late, or too early! :)

I would stay away from Frontpage, as most of the people on here will tell you. Truth be told I would stay within the realm of hand coding your html, and everything else for that matter.

The WYSISYG editors create notoriously bad code, and if you look at the majority of advertisments for design jobs they state "the ability to hand code...". If you learn to design wih ANY of the WYSIWYG edtors (Frontpage, GoLive, Dreamweaver, etc) you may gain exposure to elements of design, but all of the technical stuff will be done BEHIND THE SCENES so to speak. This, in my opinion, isn't truly learning how things work.

A lot of professionals swear by hand coding. Many others use an editor such as Dreamweaver, but IF they are truly professional they also have the ability to go in and hand code or hand edit the HTML that the editor has created.

You can do a lot on your own. Visit www.w3.org, which is the bible of web design. Learn how to create HTML pages, using CSS to style the page, and learn to validate this code on the W3 web site (validation is checking it for errors).

If you are interested in schooling, but don't have a lot of time, this program:

www.weavingtheweb.net

... is great. They are all full credit, online courses. The resources are excellent, the profs get back to you in a remarkably short period of time, and they are very strict about their students learning to create correct, valid, code.

Next up, get yourself a graphic editing program. Photoshop 7 is the industry standard, but is also quite expensive. Learn how to create and modify graphics. This is an essential skill for web design.

I would not worry about the other things, like javascript, Flash (which I personally love), server side scripts, etc. Until you have a strong foundation.

I hope this helps,

James

[khaki]

james speaks the truth....

learn the basics...

code it all without WYSIWYG...

progress when ready.

oh... and you won't get rich doing this stuff.
if you don't love it... avoid it at all costs :rolleyes:

if you do love it....
you won't be able to avoid it :)

happy coding...
;) k

[Jona]

Originally posted by khaki
[O]h... and you won't get rich doing this stuff.

I resemble that remark. :D

[J]ona

[GMan]

thanks for the reply's.

im really not looking to get rich, just earn a good living to provide for the family, and my son is looking at being able to earn an above average salary when he becomes working age.

of course a new Hummer, with a nice big boat to pull behind it and maybe a couple Harley's to cruise around on would be nice. LOL, dreaming is ok right?

this site www.w3.org ive seen it mentioned before as a good learning site, i havent got a chance to look at it yet, but is it a pay site for the teaching or is it a free learning site like the HTML Goodies site? I really liked the HTML Goodies site Mr. Burns comes across as an easy read and not boring.

as far as whether we love to do this type work or not, its probaby a little early to tell but just messing around with some basic HTML has been fun.

also Jona, for being only 14 you sure have good sentence structure and come across as a very knowledgable young person. i would have guessed you to be alot older with many years experience.

also no one really answered the question on whether you need the degree or not. execpt Jona of course but Jona did mention plans of going to college after high school.

thanks

[DaveSW]

I'm 17 and it took me 6 months to learn coding. I started in WYSIWYG but converted to notepad after about a month. Now I'm starting to use
http://www.chami.com/html-kit/
a free editor.

Probably the most important tool after you've learnt html properly is css. css is brilliant for layouts, and when you're hand coding you need never code a table again. My biggest mistake was agreeing to build a web site for someone (which was what started me in this line) before I knew html and css properly. I've spent the last 3 months going back and tidying up my first site.

My advice is to learn now, get your name known, and in a few years time you may have a business capable of supporting you. I currently have about 5 contracts, from within the 6 months. Business breeds business, but I guess it would be a few years before you earn enough money to support yourself properly. I find the main earner is the maintenance contracts. Any company worth it's salt can afford $40 a month, so if you get about 40 sites up... (i'm aiming for 100, but there we go LOL).

I don't have a degree, in fact the only IT qualification I have is a gcse (standard at 16 in the UK) which has nothing to do with web design.

As James said, graphics are important. Add flash as well and your sites start to sell...

Cheap graphics packages?

www.jasc.com is one of the best cheap(ish) ones.

Flash: There's a 30 day trial of macromedia flash at www.macromedia.com but I prefer www.koolmoves.com 'cos it's cheaper. However, leave flash alone till you're competent with html, css and graphics.

[Jona]

Paint Shop Pro (www.jasc.com's product) is a very decent graphics editor. But if you want what puts all other graphics programs to shame, you should get Photoshop (http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/). The program is a total masterpiece! But it costs you a pretty penny to purchase... $600. A student may purchase for half the price, but that is still a lot of money. I went to eBay (www.ebay.com) and purchased it for 1/4 the original price ($150).

But as the others, I do suggest graphics being a part of your visual design--however, it's best not to rely on graphics. The site layout and design should look nice in black and white without any images at all. ;)

Flash is awesome, I need to get that program too, DaveSW. :)

GMan, about getting a degree. It isn't exactly required, however, without one, you may as well forget Web development. These days, the only thing people want to see is a diploma. If you don't have a college degree, you don't get the job. This is the second reason for my desire to earn a college degree in Web development (minor in graphic design).

[J]ona

[Greelmo]

w3schools is free... and REALLY REALLY GOOD. I learned css in its entirety off of that site, and use it as a reference quite often. I use canvas 7/8 for my graphics at the moment, and it's okay. Nothing special. Photoshop is very good. Well, i wish you and your son luck. Programing is AWESOME as well as really addicting.

[DaveSW]

If you're running your own business a portfolio is quite important too. And a degree/diploma in anything is going to make you look good.

I think macromedia's student offer is for 'educational purposes' only. I was going to buy it until I read the small print. :mad:

[GMan]

thanks all,

one thing though is HTML considered programming, i was under the impression it was not a programming language but to me it sure looks similar to programming.

thanks

[Jona]

Originally posted by GMan
[O]ne thing though is HTML considered programming, i was under the impression it was not a programming language but to me it sure looks similar to programming.

No, HTML is a markup language. While XML is a meta-markup language, and things such as PHP, JavaScript, ASP, CGI, C/C++/C#, and COBOL, for example, are programming languages (though the first four relate to Web design, and the others are less Web-related).

A programming language consists of functions, classes, objects, methods, properties, etc. A markup language consists mainly of tags, or, pre-interpreted (or pre-translated) code. That is, each element of the language is defined and does a specific thing, where programming languages cannot be this way because they "translate" themselves.

[J]ona