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apoll11
11-09-2006, 02:21 PM
I'm probably gonna get assassinated for saying this, but how about we all stop developing for IE6-, IE on the Mac, Opera8- etc. All those older browsers do is cause problems and piss web developers off, so let it end.
If we all just design sites which definately work in FF2, IE7, Opera9 etc. and don't bother checking older browsers, sooner or later things should change. As it is, with people making sure that IE5.5 is still supported etc, we're not moving forward. When does it end? Shall we stop supporting old versions of IE when IE8 is out???
There's no excuse for anyone not to get firefox anyway. its only a few meg.
My 2 cents, thanks for listening.
Death to IE
Moved by KDLA -- not a request for help.
the tree
11-09-2006, 03:43 PM
A nice plan, but some people have got to make a living.
And Firefox still takes up way too much RAM, that's a perfectly good reason not to get it.
netbuddy
11-09-2006, 04:10 PM
You forget, the browser and platform, if you have an old 486DX (for heavens...!) but people still do have and use old machinery, I do, and the browser is say IE 5 on a Windows 95, as I once did, as soon as IE6 came out, you couldnt run it on a win95 only 98 or better. instantly all the developers were creaming their little panties because they had a whole suite of things that they could do which left IE5 behind.
Its not just a question of archetecture, moving ahead usually cost the consumer money, IT is nice to demand these new technologies and system abilities but you forget who pays... Not everyone can just go out and buy a new computer.
Kravvitz
11-09-2006, 05:14 PM
netbuddy, you've got a very good point. I wish more people would remember that.
And Firefox still takes up way too much RAM, that's a perfectly good reason not to get it.
I've heard that Firefox uses available RAM to improve its performance by caching temporary copies of web pages in the RAM. If less RAM is available, it will use less.
drhowarddrfine
11-09-2006, 07:33 PM
A bogus statement:
And Firefox still takes up way too much RAM, that's a perfectly good reason not to get it.
The truth:
I've heard that Firefox uses available RAM to improve its performance by caching temporary copies of web pages in the RAM. If less RAM is available, it will use less.
MstrBob
11-09-2006, 08:00 PM
Thank you.! You know all those horror stories about "OMG! I left Firefox open and now it's using 200MB of RAM!!!!"? Yes, well ask these people and you see they've got 1GB+ or RAM. So what if Firefox is gobbling up that much RAM on your computer? It's not in use!
Meanwhile, on my older workstation (before it died) I was running Windows XP with 192MB of RAM (I know - slow as hell). It was rare to see Firefox over 40MB. The browser makes use of what is available.
Sorry to rant. Anywho.
Forgetting about older browsers, while on the surface a very appealing idea, totally flies in the face of accessibility, you know? As web developers we are obligated to make content as widely available as possible, and purposefully cutting off any browser, old or new, IE or non-IE, ect. runs counter to what we should do.
Though, you could be real mean and only have CSS support for the most modern versions and still have all the text available... That would piss off users, though.
NogDog
11-09-2006, 08:34 PM
If you want to develop sites for the computer elite or hobby sites to demonstrate your design skills, that's certainly your perogative.
If, however, you are designing a site for the purposes of generating income, why in the world would you want to exclude those who for whatever reason aren't as much on the bleeding edge of technology as most developers are? That's like a store at your local mall not allowing certain people in because they don't happen to wear the latest style of clothing. No reasonable store manager is going to turn away possible purchases for such a trivial reason.
At some point if particular platforms/browsers are in extermely limited usage and require an inordinate amount of cost (i.e.: time) to achieve compatibility, then you can make an informed decision to not worry about it; but don't make such a decision simply because you don't like it and it requires some extra effort.
In any case, a page with valid and semantically meaningful markup/content should always be usable by any but the most ancient of browsers, if perhaps not as beautiful to look at.
Reli4nt
11-10-2006, 12:35 AM
Don't be lazy
felgall
11-10-2006, 12:42 AM
If we were going to create web pages that use features that are only supported by the latest version 9 browsers such as Opera 9 and Firefox 2 then we would have stopped worrying about Internet Explorer 8 (sic) several years ago. Unfortunately most people using Windows 98 and Windows NT etc don't realize that there are better browsers out there that they could be using in place of IE6 and even if they did most wouldn't bother to change.
Waylander
11-10-2006, 01:03 AM
I really don't see why people go on about this stuff so much.
Seriously if you write straight forward semantic valid no nonsense mark up and css then its going to look fairly good in most browsers even if there are tiny differences in the exact display.
NogDog is right, there is a direct time/cost trade off choice that needs to be made at one point.
At the end of the day most users are on ie 6 and 5, soon to be 7 with the upcoming "critical update". I'm running a business, not creating art. If you want to create art then write your site completely in flash and damn the torpedoes... at least you will get full control of the environment (even if not everyone will see it).
Besides, if it looks right in Firefox then its more than likely going to be fine in any other non ie more compliant browser.
And yes, we have established, many times in this forum, that Firefox doesn't waste memory. I'm more than happy with the way it does things. Firefox 2 is a very solid and responsive application that I am very pleased to use. It makes very good use of the RIDICULOUS 1000 megabytes of ram my computer really doesn't need.
Of course, I do get an email once in a blue moon from X person telling me that X site is out by X pixels in an obscure X version of X ridiculously strict browser (most likely opera), people with no concept of real world projects with real world clients, stakeholders and time lines...
To which I nail of a quick "thanks for the heads up" reply and get back to whatever the hell it was I was doing before someone started wasting my time.
Waylander.
Kravvitz
11-10-2006, 01:30 AM
Waylander, am I correct that you don't test in Opera or Safari? Out of curiosity, what browsers do you test in?
At some point if particular platforms/browsers are in extermely limited usage and require an inordinate amount of cost (i.e.: time) to achieve compatibility, then you can make an informed decision to not worry about it; but don't make such a decision simply because you don't like it and it requires some extra effort.
That's why I don't write special code for NS4.x, but sometimes will support IE4 with my JavaScript scripts when it only requires minor additions. (document.all is more compatible with DOM1 than document.layers.)
I usually use @import to hide the stylesheets from both of them though.
Here are some related articles that I found to be interesting:
Graded Browser Support (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/gbs.html)
Progressive Enhancement and the Future of Web Design (http://www.webmonkey.com/03/21/index3a.html)
Accessibility is seldom just up to the interface developer (http://www.robertnyman.com/2006/10/10/accessibility-is-seldom-just-up-to-the-interface-developer/)
Reddox
11-10-2006, 10:38 AM
It's a good idea, but everybody, not just us, would have to do it.
BTW, I don't like FF. Opera is my browser.
If it counts for anything, the (Bill & Melinda) Gates Foundation is responsible for placing computers in most libraries and/or many, many educational institutions. Of course, these computers are going to have Internet Explorer. Sure, you can hope that the private citizen switches to Firefox or Opera, but there are many institutions who must/prefer to use Microsoft products.
KDLA
grumpyoldtechs
11-11-2006, 01:38 PM
write a virus which adds a script into all files that checks the browser version if its not a decent browser redirect them to the Firefox website
the tree
11-11-2006, 01:49 PM
Grumpy, how would you define a decent browser?
Also, I wouldn't even think about downloading anything that I got redirected to when trying to surf an irrelevant site.
Kravvitz
11-11-2006, 05:18 PM
I don't think many people would switch to Firefox if you used black-hat techniques like that. You could put a message on the page or use a popup window to ask the user to switch to a newer browser.
the tree
11-12-2006, 04:37 AM
Even then, doesn't it sort defy the point of free-free software if you're telling people which application to use rather than letting them chose for themselves?
After all, the differences between IE5 on one side, and IE6+, latest FF/Opera/Safari a.s.o are not so important. If decent and well HTML witten, a page may be seen (even with small and unimportant differences) by all the browsers. I don't sense the quarell. HTML core has not changed so much since the IE5 times...