I am a Navy veteran, pre-Vietnam days, and a couple of years ago organized a reunion for former ship crewmembers. During the early part of that process I decided to create a web presence for the ship since none was in existence. This was done for personal intent and reasons; namely, to advertise the upcoming reunion in hopes of generating interest ... since at that time I was the 'guarantor' of the reunion process at a major Nevada casino in Reno.
This would be done by referring to the url and inviting the fellows to go there for details as needed. Plus I had posted other historical data on the ship; which was decomissioned in 1972 and sold to the Brazilian Navy. I paid for the regisration with personal funds; and had a web design company owned by my daughter create the pages, etc.. Her fee incidentally was ultimately paid from reunion excess funds; whereas, I never requested nor got reimbursed for my purchase of the url.
There has now arisen a dispute between me, the daughter and individuals now conducting reunions. These individuals (... an association was formed AFTER the url and web site were purchased/generated) ... insist that I turn over the url (to the association), and that the web mistress turn over her copyrights (for design and creative processes) , to them. I have repeatedly informed them that the url was my personal purchase and would not comply with their demand. Also they have been informed to contact the web mistress with their request for the actual content; and that she 'might' consider release of the (everday common) data posted thereon.
Am I within my rights to refuse the release of the url; and is the web mistress within her rights to hold onto the creation of the various pages under her copyright claim pending them contacting her?
Thank you.
Chuck Timmerman
Yerington, Nevada
Stephen Philbin
11-20-2006, 12:32 AM
As far as I can tell, from the info you've given, I'd take the view that the other company has rights to neither your domain name, nor the content therein. To get what they want, they should have to prove they have already done what you have done, before you did it. that's how I see it from the information you've given anyway.
Though it's not illegal to have two sites on the same subject or serving the same purpose. I don't recall Microsoft ever bringing legal action against Google for starting to provide a web mail service, and if anyone is going to bring up a law suit at the slightest possible chance, it's Microsoft!
doonboggle
11-20-2006, 12:58 AM
As far as I can tell, from the info you've given, I'd take the view that the other company has rights to neither your domain name, nor the content therein. To get what they want, they should have to prove they have already done what you have done, before you did it. that's how I see it from the information you've given anyway.
Though it's not illegal to have two sites on the same subject or serving the same purpose. I don't recall Microsoft ever bringing legal action against Google for starting to provide a web mail service, and if anyone is going to bring up a law suit at the slightest possible chance, it's Microsoft!
Thanks Stephen. It's just 'little ole me' ... private and retired crewmember.
Since posting, while awaiting some responses, did a WHOIS search and found out from that search that the association has now acquired 3 VERY similar domain names ... with xxxxxx.net xxxxxx.org and another one with the words xxxxxxReunionAssociation.com
Mine is the xxxxxx.com version.
It's our opinion, and I am not an attorney, that when this is pointed out to a possible judge, that he/she likely would laugh and toss the suit as being frivilous.
The wife and I are now 'surmising' that the reason they are harrassing us (even though they now have 3 other sites registered) is likely due to their discovery that web design is not 'free'............ and thus may be putting the pressure on us due to the fact that a portion of the excess funds from the first reunion was used to pay for this service ....... and that they are possibly interpretating that as coming under the 'nepotism' aspect ... since the web mistress is our daughter.
She originally 'volunteered' to do the design, for dad, but when it became apparent that excess funds would be available, along with paying other 'volunteers' for their services, we also paid her for her work at the going hourly rate she charged her other clients.
tracknut
11-20-2006, 11:22 AM
I'll take the other side of the argument here, just to give that to you. Nothing personal intended, there's clearly far more to this than you'll be able to post up in a message. And of course my perspective is just from what's in your post, it may be inaccurate because I don't know the whole story.
It seems to me (and I will assume) this was an endeavor which originally was not commercial, and was purely done to help bring together a group of veterans and provide some interesting information to them. You took on the task of registering a domain (i.e. you spent about $25), and your daughter provided her web development services. Initially those services were intended to be free, but some excess funds from an event allowed you to change that plan and pay her.
So now, another group is doing the future reunion events. I don't know (and don't really care to know :) ) all the reasons why this other group is doing the reunions and not you.
To me the question comes down to two things:
1) Is this new group a for-profit group, that's "bullying" you to get your domain and its contents, or are they a non-profit with the same motivation you originally had?
2) Are you continuing your reunion events and web site, or are you shutting that down and not giving up the domain just because you're stubborn?
My answers:
1) The veterans essentially paid your daughter for her services. If the veterans are now to be serviced by a new non-profit group, I say the content goes to the new group and you should give it to them for no charge (you are non-profit, after all). On the other hand, if they are starting this as a for-profit business, they should be buying any assets they need for their business, but the price they pay for it really doesn't go to you, it should go to the veterans (so find a way to make a neat donation). Your daughter has already been paid for her services. You should get your $25 registration from them if they're a non-profit, and if they're a business you should sell them the domain name for a reasonable price.
2) If you're continuing on with your efforts and will be actively using this web site, then by all means go for it, but just squatting on the domain to be a pest doesn't accomplish much other than stress, to everyone including you.
I suppose this rambled a bit, but hopefully something in there was helpful.
Dave
doonboggle
11-20-2006, 12:04 PM
I'll take the other side of the argument here, just to give that to you. Nothing personal intended, there's clearly far more to this than you'll be able to post up in a message. And of course my perspective is just from what's in your post, it may be inaccurate because I don't know the whole story.
I have no problem with your synopsis Dave and appreciate your input. Will try and respond to specific items; by capitalization. Not shouting ... JUST TO MAKE IT MORE VISIBLE SOMEWHAT..
It seems to me (and I will assume) this was an endeavor which originally was not commercial, and was purely done to help bring together a group of veterans and provide some interesting information to them. You took on the task of registering a domain (i.e. you spent about $25), and your daughter provided her web development services. Initially those services were intended to be free, but some excess funds from an event allowed you to change that plan and pay her.
YOU ARE CORRECT. IT WAS ENTIRELY A PERSONAL CHOICE OF MINE AT THE VERY OUTSET; AND IN FACT HAD CONSIDERED IT BRIEFLY IN THE PAST 10-15 YEARS OR SO. I AM AN AMATEUR HISTORIAN AND AFTER COMING ACROSS SOME OF THE HISTORY OF THE SHIP, AND ALSO BEING SOMEWHAT OF A NOSTALGIA BUG, THOUGHT IT'D BE NICE TO HAVE A SITE WHEREIN I COULD POST 'STUFF' ABOUT MY SHIP AND HER HISTORY.
NO THERE WAS NO COMMERCIAL INTENT WHATSOEVER.
WHEN THE DECISION WAS MADE, AGAIN IT WAS TO DO THE ABOVE ... PLUS NOW TO USE THAT MEDIUM TO DRUM UP INTEREST FROM OTHER CREWMEMBERS WHO WOULD BE RECEIVING MY SNAIL MAILINGS AND MIGHT NEED FURTHER INFORMATION; OR A MEDIUM TO CONTACT ME FOR INFORMATION ... SINCE WE HAD A 'CONTACT' LINK POSTED.
So now, another group is doing the future reunion events. I don't know (and don't really care to know :) ) all the reasons why this other group is doing the reunions and not you.
IT WAS A PERSONAL CHOICE I MADE. RATHER THAN DO A LIFETIME CREWMEMBER REUNION, I CHOSE TO FOCUS ON DOING THEM FOR THE WWII FELLOWS AFTER THEY BEGGED ME TO DO ONE "JUST FOR THEM" ... AS THEY PUT IT.
To me the question comes down to two things:
1) Is this new group a for-profit group, that's "bullying" you to get your domain and its contents, or are they a non-profit with the same motivation you originally had?
2) Are you continuing your reunion events and web site, or are you shutting that down and not giving up the domain just because you're stubborn?
IT IS THE SAME GROUP; JUST UNDER NEWER ELECTED INDIVIDUALS. I, AND A FEW MEMBERS WHO ASSISTED ME, ORIGINALLY, CREATED A CORPORATION FOR THE ASSOCIATION.
AS FOR BEING NON-PROFIT, THAT'S WHAT IT WAS AT FIRST. NO COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY ... JUST HISTORICAL DATA AND INFORMATION ON THE REUNION I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF ORGANIZING. BUT A COUPLE OF THE 'ASSISTANTS' WANTED ME TO TURN MY WEB SITE INTO A FOR-PROFIT WEB SITE; AND THE WEB MISTRESS, AFTER INVESTIGATING IT, ADVISED TO NOT DO SO SINCE CERTAIN PROCEDURES HAD TO BE FOLLOWED; IE, TAXES CHARGED AND PAID TO THE STATES; BUSINESS LICENSES ... AND THE LIKE. THESE I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME INVOLVED IN IN ANY WAY.
My answers:
1) The veterans essentially paid your daughter for her services. If the veterans are now to be serviced by a new non-profit group, I say the content goes to the new group and you should give it to them for no charge (you are non-profit, after all). On the other hand, if they are starting this as a for-profit business, they should be buying any assets they need for their business, but the price they pay for it really doesn't go to you, it should go to the veterans (so find a way to make a neat donation). Your daughter has already been paid for her services. You should get your $25 registration from them if they're a non-profit, and if they're a business you should sell them the domain name for a reasonable price.
YES, SHE WAS PAID AT THE END OF THE REUNION; WITH EXCESS FUNDS.... AS WAS OTHERS THAT HAD 'VOLUNTEERED' THEIR TIME AND $$$. THIS WAS DONE BY A CONCENSUS VOTE; IT WAS NOT A UNILATERAL DECISION. AND EVEN THEN, A GOODLY AMOUNT OF STILL REMAINING FUNDS WAS PASSED ALONG TO THE NEW OFFICERS OF THE CORPORATION.
THE 'CONTENT' IS STUFF (WEB POSTINGS) THAT I HAD ACCUMULATED, PRIMARILY FROM ALL OF THE HISTORICAL DATA POSTED ELSEWHERE ON THE INTERNET ... AND IS STILL OUT AT THIS TIME FOR ANYONE WANTING TO TO COPY AND PASTE ... OR LINK TO.
THE PART ABOUT THE CONTENTS BEING DONATED IS ... I DON'T THINK ... UP TO ME. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT WHATEVER A WEB MASTER, DEVELOPER, OR WHATEVER CREATES IN THE FORM OF WEB PAGES ... IS COPYRIGHT MATERIAL, CREATIONS OR WHATEVER. THAT I WILL ADMIT I AM NOT THAT CLEAR ON THOUGH.
2) If you're continuing on with your efforts and will be actively using this web site, then by all means go for it, but just squatting on the domain to be a pest doesn't accomplish much other than stress, to everyone including you.
YES; I'VE CONTINUED WITH THE REUNION PROCESS, AGAIN AS AN INDIVIDUAL, BUT THIS TIME JUST FOR THE WWII FELLOWS DOWN IN BATON ROUGE.
I'M NOT 'SQUATTING' ON THE DOMAIN. I HAVE FUTURE PLANS TO ALSO POST ON IT OUR FAMILIES GENEALOGY DATA ... WHICH WILL LITERALLY BE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF PAGES ... AT THE LEAST. IN ADDITION, I HAVE COME ACROSS SOME BRAZILIAN NAVY PAGES THAT HAS THE HISTORICAL DATA ... INCLUDING PICTURES ... OF THE SHIP UP UNTIL 1994 WHEN SHE WAS FINALLY MELTED DOWN FOR SCRAP METAL. SO MY INTENT NOW, AS WAS AT THE OUTSET, WAS FOR PERSONAL USAGE; WITH THE INITIAL REUNION, BEING ALSO MY CREATION, BEING POSTED IN A HISTORICAL VEIN.
I suppose this rambled a bit, but hopefully something in there was helpful.
Dave
I HOPE THIS CLARIFIES IT A BIT FURTHER.
CHUCK
rocknbil
11-29-2006, 02:24 AM
Chuck, I know the costs are usually prohibitive but your best course here is to talk to a lawyer. This is too important to guess at, if you don't - they will.
panama
12-27-2006, 09:40 PM
Hi! I read an article on webproworld about nightmare clients. I am aware of SEO and other webpage topics. However, someone has sued me for using her trademark's URL and her's is a Real Estate TV show similar to one in the United States and she is a US citizen.
There are points that I believe I have in favour.
1) The trademark was submitted in the goverment 6 months after we purchased and used the domain.
2) The trademark has not been aproved yet
3) Her TV show's name is the "Same one in the US and she is a US citizen".
4) Her trademark application was just done to mess with us.
5) We are licenced real estate brokers. She has a TV show on real estate brokers and projects.
6) We have never marketed our selves as the URL but the Corporation's name which is the licenced real estate corporation. We even had a logo of the Corporation's Name.
7) Anyone in the world could have purchased our domain and used it to sell real estate abroad.
8) I have all proves of hard work that our domain name has nothing to do with our success. This means pure SEO skills and dedication. However, people in my country dont know anything about SEO or webpages. I need to support that a domain has not much to do agains a good relevant search engine friendly text and programming.
In any case I am going to court and will face an ingnorant judge from my 3rd world country "The Republic of Panama" where most dont know the internet exists, even judges. How can I support the fact that a URL is a URL and a trademark is a trademark. Is there a specific webpage where we can see people who buy sell domain to trademark owners? Thanks in advance and looking forward to your quick help.
PS> is there any phone we can call you?
Regards,
p11
coppocks
12-27-2006, 11:53 PM
I've been doing this (web consulting/design etc) a LONG time. I've done this for fortune 100 companies and small ma & pa businesses. I have experienced this from both sides of the coin... where a client has discovered that there is a domain name that infringes on copyrights or intellectual property, or where a client has been contacted by another business in an attempt to get the domain name. It can be messy. But generally, it's an over reaction or fear that causes one to give up a domain name rather than the other side having a legitimate cause.
There is nothing they can do without legal action to force you to give up the domain. And even then, they have to prove beyond a doubt that you are infringing on a copyright and/or that your use of said domain name has caused them some sort of financial loss and/or damage to their reputation. So ask yourself this: will they spend that kinda cash to prove those points to get it from you? Probably not. And further, you are not required to give them the contents of the web site that were generated by you. If for example, you used a DoN issued PR image of the ship... you've as much rights to use that image as the next person, IAW DoN or DoD policy of course. If there is a logo that perhaps your daughter made in Photoshop or Illustrator, they have no rights to it as long as it does not emulate an existing logo or trademark. Believe me, there are a TON of websites out there dedicated to decommissioned ships created by veterans.
I am by no means an attorney, so my word is not gold here. But my experience tells me that any infringement on your part must be blatently obvious. An example would be someone's name or mascot... in other words, mickeymouse.com simply won't fly even yer older than Walt's father. And like Microsoft, Disney wouldn't hesitate.
... and there are many others... just do a search of "Domain Name Arbitration" and you'll come up with plenty of reading material.
From one Navy vet to another, g'luck to you!
LeeU
01-04-2007, 10:13 AM
How can I support the fact that a URL is a URL and a trademark is a trademark.
Panama,
Please don't highjack the thread. Start a new thread and repost your question. Thanks.
bathurst_guy
01-05-2007, 08:40 PM
I think that the domain is no doubt yours. You are quite within your rights to keep the domain or put a dollar figure on it - as much as they are willing to pay for it. As for the website design though, I'm a little torn both ways. It would depend on the contract that was signed - but I'm guessing that none was seeing as though it originally was a free job and she is your daughter. But, I'm concerned that she was paid from the money that effectively was the 'reunions'. Now, I think that the copyright is then owned by the 'reunion'. The money spent up-front for the reunion costs, who did that belong? I belive who ever paid this upfront cost owns the copyright to the website. But there is no contract stating either way on the matter.
Hostnetric
01-06-2007, 11:12 AM
If you purchased the domain with your own funds and were not reimbused for the purchase nor did you have a contract with the group then the domain would be yours and in most cases you would retain ownership even in a legal battle as they would have to prove without a doubt that they were in business before your domain name was put into effect. Now if you were reimbused for the domain and the contract was oral or written either way and the new site is operated by the same group that originally asked for you to open this site then they may have some grounds to stand on.
As pointed out the decision needs to be made on their part as to whether they want to pursue legal action and spend money they may or may not have to do so. Is it worth their time and effort to do this or would it simply be easier to register a new domain if they do not allready have one and promote this to their members. Without knowing the exact circumstances to which the site was created (in other words first hand knowledge) it is impossible to give accurate advice. If you are truely concerned it is best to seek the advice of a lawyer that specializes in these types of cases and act on this as he advises you to.
Good Luck!
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