Experience vs. School

[chad101]

How many years have some of you been writing code? Did you major in some information systems program of study?

I do very well in school and I have taken all the C++, VB, JAVA, Database administration, Game programming, Photoshop, Illustrator, Web animation(flash), Markup languages etc etc classes yet I have a hard time sitting down and designing something very very nice. From my experience school is mainly terminology and basic fundamentals. Very few classes have prepared me for the future employer. I’m graduating this spring yet sometimes I get the impression I’m not close to being ready lol.

I have come to the conclusion that computer science is not an acquired skill, you have it or you don’t…

[Charles]

It looks like your education has been all about the tools with nothing about vision. What about the art classes? Philosophy? Literature? Perhaps you need another year working on a minor in Liberal Arts, perhaps even at a different school. Until then start spending lots of time in the museum.

And by the way, with a firm foundation in Liberal Arts you train the mind so that you can quickly pick up all of those tools on your own.

[The Old Sarge]

lol, Charles.

No offense to anyone, but it sounds like you're saying, "Get a life." Appropriate, IMO.

[The Old Sarge]

Chad, to add to what Charles advises ... take a nice stroll along a river or lake shore. Look at a sunrise like it was your last chance to see one. Climb a mountain and look down on a city and notice how insignificant it (the city) can be ...

[Charles]

lol, Charles.

No offense to anyone, but it sounds like you're saying, "Get a life." Appropriate, IMO.Not really, it's more that one should follow Twain: "I never let my schooling get in the way of my education."

[The Old Sarge]

That, too. :)

[russell]

chad101, This is an excerpt from a column (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html) written by Joel Spolsky (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/) on what to look for when hiring. I think it is pretty relavant.

OK, I didn’t tell you the most important part—how do you know whether to hire someone?

In principle, it’s simple. You’re looking for people who are

1. Smart, and
2. Get things done.

That’s it. That’s all you’re looking for. Memorize that.

[MstrBob]

Eh, I don't think a liberal arts education is for everyone.

chad, I might ask you just exactly what do you want to do. From your classes, you are all over the place. C++, VB, and Java (am I to assume Swing here?) and Game Programming are all very technical computer programming skills. But then you have Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, and HTML knowledge, which is web design a lot more artistic than technical. Ask yourself what you are best at, the technical or the artistic? Keep in mind, even if you feel you are more creative, you can't just sit down and design something.

If you do feel you are more apt for web design, you might (as Charles said) benefit from art classes or learn to draw or something along those lines. You might go to galleries like css vault (http://www.cssvault.com) or css zen garden (http://www.csszengarden.com) to get an idea of the different styles out there. Most creation (the arts AND sciences) involves building and utilizing bits from those before you.

[russell]

that list of classes is pretty common computer science fare. the education curriculum isnt nearly as important as being smart, being a problem solver, demonstrating confidence and an abilty (even eagerness) to learn.

[drhowarddrfine]

I used to work with a guy just out of school who could do the basics but had a terrible time beyond that and I would get very frustrated with him.

Despite my experience, I have a hard time doing things on my own unless someone is paying me to do it.

When I was at a very prestigious university, the head of the computer department was a widely recognized expert in the field who only had a high school diploma.

A friend of mine, when he quit his last job at a well known large company, was told by his very experienced boss that he was the best programmer he had ever met. My friend never told him he was self taught and never went to college.

Names not provided to protect the innocent.

[chad101]

It looks like your education has been all about the tools with nothing about vision. What about the art classes? Philosophy? Literature? Perhaps you need another year working on a minor in Liberal Arts, perhaps even at a different school. Until then start spending lots of time in the museum.

And by the way, with a firm foundation in Liberal Arts you train the mind so that you can quickly pick up all of those tools on your own.

Yes, my electives included all of these…except art…yea, I know. Which, I will consider enrolling in a few classes. :)

chad101, This is an excerpt from a column (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html) written by Joel Spolsky (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/) on what to look for when hiring. I think it is pretty relavant.

Awesome article! Thank you for sharing this with me :-). It’s not an issue with me being incompetent on problem solving, and getting work done. In-fact I receive much praise from my CS professors for some of my sorting and recursion algorithms. I’ve been working on a chess game for over a year now. My goal is to have this piece of work playing at a master level strength (I will not give up lol). When complete Anna Zatonskih (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Zatonskih) has accepted a skittles game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skittles_(chess)) at one of our monthly Toledo chess tournaments (http://www.toledochess.org/).

Eh, I don't think a liberal arts education is for everyone.

chad, I might ask you just exactly what do you want to do. From your classes, you are all over the place. C++, VB, and Java (am I to assume Swing here?) and Game Programming are all very technical computer programming skills. But then you have Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, and HTML knowledge, which is web design a lot more artistic than technical. Ask yourself what you are best at, the technical or the artistic? Keep in mind, even if you feel you are more creative, you can't just sit down and design something.

If you do feel you are more apt for web design, you might (as Charles said) benefit from art classes or learn to draw or something along those lines. You might go to galleries like css vault (http://www.cssvault.com) or css zen garden (http://www.csszengarden.com) to get an idea of the different styles out there. Most creation (the arts AND sciences) involves building and utilizing bits from those before you.

That’s my problem, I can write code. But I get lost when it comes to making something attractive that future employers will be impressed by. Most don’t care about what’s under the hood of a car. There only concern lies with the paint scheme and interior. I love some of these CSS layouts. I ask myself “what steps did the author take to create such a visual appealing piece work?” Did they start on note book paper with a rough use case scenario, then rough sketch the layout taking note of color schemes? Or did they fire up notepad and illustrator and go to town? I know when I write some programs I try to visualize the flow of the program and write down notes first. Then start on my main classes and work from there. But when it comes to art and making an attractive GUI…I suck lol. You should see my Database I designed for a metallurgical lab. Very nice database normalized to BCNF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization#Boyce-Codd_normal_form). Some of the SQL queries just make my head spin when calculating complex math operations on weekly, monthly, and yearly furnace PPK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ppk_index) performance. But, if you seen the GUI…you would laugh lol! I would love to have a natural feel for art, my heart lies in writing code.

[MstrBob]

Chad, so why not pursue where your heart lies? It sounds like you'd make a great programmer if you wanted to. Or perhaps become an engineer? Or join up with someone more artistic and have a solid team (You could be the coder, behind-the-scenes guy and your partner would be the designer who envisions things). You'll be happiest doing what your apt at and enjoy.

[Watts]

As my brother says... "Remember, they aren't hiring any Vice-President's today, those positions are already filled." - which means you're gonna have to start as a lackey somewhere, that's how you get the experience. The education helps you get the job in the first place, but it's not gonna be glamorous and no where near the salary you think you're gonna get - that comes later.

[Ultimater]

I have come to the conclusion that computer science is not an acquired skill, you have it or you don’t…
It is true that you can categorize people as either skilled or unskilled in CS. However to acquire skill, there is no substitute for experience.
Perfection in general requires practice because practice makes perfect and pleasure in the job makes the job easier because all things are easier when pleasureful and done willingly and practice requires time. Striving for perfection requires more than just college because college really only scratches the surface of CS. One can even become fluent in every programming language in existence and still remain a lousy programmer in HTML! LMFAO. HTML is a markup language not a programming language! HTML is intentionally designed not to be a full programming language, so that many different things can be done with an HTML document: software can present the document in various styles, extract tables of contents, index it, and so on. Point is college education might broaden your horizons in CS yet it surely lacks depth in the material. I hope nobody has a problem with me calling college optional for web programmers because I'd even go as far as discouraging it altogether in favor of webdeveloper.com, trial and error, and the rest of the internet. I'm sure Charles remembers when I was a newbie to the web standards. I recall many people saying that the forums doubled or even tripled overall programming skills in a very short time.

[The Old Sarge]

OK, I didn’t tell you the most important part—how do you know whether to hire someone?

In principle, it’s simple. You’re looking for people who are

1. Smart, and
2. Get things done.

That’s it. That’s all you’re looking for. Memorize that.

What? No loyalty? No integrity? No trust or trustworthiness? No initiative? No committment? No pride?

Sure, "smart" and "getting things done" are important, but far from a complete list.

[russell]

No one said it's a complete list. Did you read the article?