making a site pda/cellphone friendly

[SirHans004]

hey... i have a little personal site with not a lot of stuff, but i want it to look good on mini-browsers(pdas or cellphones). Is there a prgram i can use on my laptop to make my webpages suitable for mini-browsers or is there html i can use to see if the viewer is using a mini-browser(and redirect them to a mini version of the site)? also, is it possible to update my site from a cellphone (nokia gprs browser)?
oh, and here's my site: HH Galaxy (http://hh.fateback.com)

[Da Warriah]

well you should learn and use valid XHTML on all your pages for starters, and also do your best to learn the latest web standards...this should ensure that your site looks the best possible in pda's/cellphones/whatever else...as for any other ways, im not sure, maybe theres some special CSS media attribute you can set to assign a special stylesheet? im not sure...

[Charles]

Opera 7 has a nifty feature that lets you view a page as it would look on a hand held - and your page doesn't do too well. And it won't work on a Braille browser either. The problem is that you are using the parts of HTML to trick one kind of Browser into behaving a certain way. If you follow the HTML 4.01 Specification (http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/) and use the 4.01 Strict DTD then you page will work on all browsers. You will, however, have to use all the HTML elements as they are ment to be used and this means abandoning the use of tables for layout.

[SirHans004]

thanks for the help. i think opera 7 will come in handy.. as for the layout, i will get rid of the tables. oh and is there any other site out there that offers html/java/perl/cgi/what ever tips/help? i have used htmlgoodies.com and it has been a tremendous help to me (i probably dont need anything but that site), but i'm just wondering if it's the only one of its kind. my goal for the past few months was to get a decent website off the ground and actually have something on it as content. now i'm worrying aboout things like fluid layout, etc. again, thanks a lot... if you have any other suggestions, just email me (sirhans004@hotmail.com) or i'm online, IM me (sirhans004)
see ya;)

[PeOfEo]

goodies is a great site for when you are first learning html but I would reccomend www.w3schools.com for further learning

[Charles]

HTML Goodies is an abysmal site, full of incorrect and incomplete information.

[SirHans004]

for the navigation and layout, would an image map be o.k., or is there a better option?

[Charles]

Image maps are a perfectly respectable part of HTML so use them to your hearts content. Just be sure to use client side maps properly employing the required "alt" attribute. See http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#include-maps.

[SirHans004]

image maps.. i'll use that. also, i think i should use a frame for the text/content part, but how can i get it to be a fluid layout, like the copyright text at the bottom or the marquee at the top?(that is, it changes it's size/shape to fit the viewers' screen)

edit: can i have an image map in a frame?

[Charles]

Get rid of the tables, use the strict DTD and see http://www.glish.com/css.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Charles
HTML Goodies is an abysmal site, full of incorrect and incomplete information. It has its fare share of errors yes but put yourself in the shoes of someone that does not even know what html is and wants to learn how to do webdesign. Html goodies puts everything in easy to understand terms for the novic web designer. It where I did my first learning and many others. You can find better tutorial sites out there for people on your level charles but goodies is great for newbies so stop trashing them like that.

[Charles]

But it puts wrong stuff in easy to understand terms. You end up a newbie who doesn't even know that he doesn't know HTML. And you've put in all of this work learning a bunch of dung and you wont want to re-learn things the right way. It is always better to learn the truth from the start.

PeOfEo, you remind me of the drunk that was looking under the street lamp for his keys. He didn't loose them there, but the street lamp was where the light was.

[SirHans004]

i think that the perhaps the original purpose of this thread was for me to get help, and yes, that i did. now let's not go starting a war here... htmlgoodies is a good site, but i did not depend on it completly. i learned equally as much from staring at source codes. to some html goodies might be life saver, but i know now that there are better sites than that. now, enough with me trying to be a mediator... i thank you, my humble advisors, for introducing me to the world of CSS... and may peace be with you.

P.S.: what's wrong with me??? this is the internet... :D

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Charles


PeOfEo, you remind me of the drunk that was looking under the street lamp for his keys. He didn't loose them there, but the street lamp was where the light was. But if you are a newby you are going to probably be learning the basic framework of html and goodies does that well. I admit the dont hit css hard enough and dont encourage the use a doc type enough but look at the basic frame work, that is mostly correct. No one said it had to be infaulable. I just think goodies deserves more credit then you give it. Look at the mentor program they have. When I was first starting out and I could not get help on the old oodie board, I would email the mentors and get their opinions and views. Also you were all on that goodies board so if I was using some wrong info from goodies, guess what, you could correct me. That street light was over the correct framework and if i needed someone to show me the dark areas someone was always there with a flash light.

[Charles]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
But if you are a newby you are going to probably be learning the basic framework of html and goodies does that well. No it does not. If it were simply a matter of a few things on the edges then it wouldn't matter but the HTML Goodies site is wrong at the foundations.

[Charles]

And since you've presented yourself as an HTML Goodies success story I took a look at your site at http://knights.europe.webmatrixhosting.net/home.html and I can assure you that you do not know HTML. I had to correct for a few fatal errors but you can see a partial list of the HTML errors on that first page at http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fknights.europe.webmatrixhosting.net%2Fhome.html&doctype=HTML+4.01+Transitional&charset=iso-8859-1+%28Western+Europe%29.

There are other, deeper problems there that the validator cannot catch but there's no sence explaining them. Having started with the HTML Goodies site you are lost and the damaage will not be easily undone.

[PeOfEo]

I dont always run my pages through some validator like you charles, I view them on several browsers and have them go through real traffic, the page functions. You cannot say someone does not know html because he does not dwell on what some validator is constantly spitting at him. I dont spend too much time going over the rules on how you can and cant do things by w3. Basically if it works keep it. And dont make the arguement that people on audio brialle browsers are going to explode or die or something if they visit my site because as you can see this is a gaming site and I have not had one hit from browsers like that and I dont expect any. If you view my tracking, well my old tracking (I switched) You would see that its almost all xp 1024 x 786 ie 6. That is my audiance too for a windows based game site.

[Charles]

As I wrote above, once a person comes under the influence of the HTML Goodies site they are lost, perhaps for ever.

[SirHans004]

ENOUGH!
the original topic was help for my website, but now it's a bitter argument. so if you're going to argue and bicker about htmlgoodies, just LEAVE.

Oh, and by the way, you people make me sick.:mad:

[PeOfEo]

This isnt exactly an argument. You should see us when we talk about microsoft. Anyways charles did you even read my post above?

[Da Warriah]

just because the majority of your users RIGHT NOW are using "xp 1024 x 786 ie 6", what happens when, a year down the road, microsoft comes out with a new OS and new browser...what are you going to do when your users suddenly switch over from XP to whatever (WindowsRG or something), which comes with IE 7.0, and your page suddenly looks horrible on it?

HTML isnt meant to be written with the "majority" in mind...its just the mindset of most web designers out there - since MOST of their users are using this type, get to look good in that and screw the rest...

standards are made to, yes, possibly make you change your layout and design a bit, but they will work much better in ALL browsers, not just the majority...

and now that ive written all this, im not even gonna TALK about HTML Goodies...lol:o

[PeOfEo]

um da warriah, I preview my sites in netscape opera and mozilla too and I suspect if it does well in Ie it will do better in the next version. Also when I make new templates or layouts I plan to use I view them from other computers too and have friends take a look at them. I dont by any means design just for ie and windows. I was just stating that I do not get any audio braille browsers. My site should not have any problem with all of the common browsers used today. Also by the way the next version of windows is longhorn and it is just like xp (well the betas I have seen) But just a heck of a lot faster.

[Da Warriah]

well fine then, its your perogative to not go for standards, its your site...just be sure to tell the user using a braille browser that when he comes along wanting to check out your site...or even the MsnTv viewer, it probably wouldnt look good on a huge flatscreen tv either...;)

and just to let you know, Charles, HTML Goodies' graduates arent lost forever...i learned HTML the wrong way from HTML Goodies, used that for a while, and now i use completely valid XHTML 1.0 and valid CSS to display my pages....not "lost forever", just misguided IMHO...;)

[Charles]

I believe it was Saint Paul who wrote "Let not Microsoft be so much as mentioned among us." But as to our discussion herein, there is something very important going on underneath.

1) You can design your web pages for yourself and those like you;

2) You can design for a target audience;

3) You can design for all.

The HTML Goodies site and hence PeOfEo (and how he can claim to be a super terrific dude having a sexually transmitted disease is beyond me) are committed to something between one and two. And from that perspective a careless use of HTML is certainly understandable. If it works on the intended browser or browsers then it works. The problem is that it doesn't work for persons with certain disabilities and as the internet is becoming central to our common life, culture and commerce inaccessible web sites exclude the disabled. Not only is this a cruel thing to do, it is for some entities against the law.

Put another way, the internet is just another public space. In the physical public space you are required by the law and by common decency to provide accessible toilets. An inaccessible toilet will certainly get plenty of use, and PeOfEo will check the logs, count the flushes and decide that all is well. And he can always point out that since no disabled persons are trying to use his inaccessible toilet he doesn't need an accessible one. And if they were using it anyway he would use that as evidence that his toilet was accessible enough.

From the outset it is no harder to learn how to design for all than it is to learn how to design for oneself or target group and the implementation is often easier, especially for larger sites. But once you have learned bad habits it is very hard to undo the damage. You have to stop the way you are thinking about your page. Nobody really cares if PeOfEo's page is accessible, but when he advocates using inaccessible design techniques he does real harm to vulnerable people.

[Charles]

Originally posted by Da Warriah
well fine then, its your perogative to not go for standards, its your site...just be sure to tell the user using a braille browser that when he comes along wanting to check out your site...or even the MsnTv viewer, it probably wouldnt look good on a huge flatscreen tv either...;)

and just to let you know, Charles, HTML Goodies' graduates arent lost forever...i learned HTML the wrong way from HTML Goodies, used that for a while, and now i use completely valid XHTML 1.0 and valid CSS to display my pages....not "lost forever", just misguided IMHO...;) I took a look under the hood and the evidence of your mis-spent youth remain. There's no DOCTYPE, you're using TABLEs for layout and I don't see any H elements.

[SirHans004]

well, i think the world (wide web) would be boring without ppl like charles...
anyways, i'm running my pages through the w3c validator, and i've fixed the first two {home and links}
http://hh.fateback.com
as for strict dtd, i'm sorta busy with other things right now, but that will be one of my priorities... I'm using transitional dtd for now.
otherwise, you can clearly see that the layout is MUCH better now, and i'm in love with CSS...(well, almost) any comments? suggestions? "eew that's horrible" messages? :D

[SirHans004]

Originally posted by Da Warriah
now i use completely valid XHTML 1.0 and valid CSS to display my pages....not "lost forever", just misguided IMHO...;)
umm...what's your definition of "completely valid"? (mine is accepted by a w3c validator)
oh, and you seriously should atleast put in a doctype, seeing that your site is dedicated to website design, and so is crossfade....
well, i cant force you to do anything, i'm just giving suggestions which i demand you to obey...
(or is that the same thing?:D )

edit: i've never seen anyone live by their signature so strictly...(*coughcough*charles*coughcough*)

[Da Warriah]

Originally posted by Charles
I took a look under the hood and the evidence of your mis-spent youth remain. There's no DOCTYPE, you're using TABLEs for layout and I don't see any H elements.

yeah im still workin on DaWarriah.Net, unfortunately i made that while still using inaccessible toilets, lol, and i havent had the time while making crossfade to switch it over to be valid...anyways by the time DW.Net v3 comes out itll be valid...CrossFade is newer anyways, and its totally valid...

*checks validator*

ok so i THOUGHT it was valid...i was sure i had changed that onChange...

alright, my toilets are out of order for a moment...how do you get a URL like http://www.blah.com/index.php?uid=453345&id=crossfade to validate? its not recognizing the &id:(

[Charles]

You need to escape your ampersands in your URLs by either using & or by using "%HH" where "HH" is some two didget hexadecimal number I cannot remember and am too lazy to look up.

[Da Warriah]

ahh, right, forgot about & - ill get on that tomorrow...

lets say instead of what i said above, that i now STRIVE to be as standards-compliant as possible...that better?:o

[SirHans004]

yay! i finished fixing my website, now it's completely valid html 4.01 transitional-- i'm too lazy to change to strict dtd right now... well, thanks for all the help, everyone! I thought i'd never have a decent website... now i'm off to hunting for content... [not that i don't already have any]
hh.fateback.com

edit: if you go to the links page, you'll see that there's some text in black: web design/development ... it's not supposed to be a link. how do i stop the previous link changing the text into the same link?

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Charles
The HTML Goodies site and hence PeOfEo (and how he can claim to be a super terrific dude having a sexually transmitted disease is beyond me) LOl I am not claiming to have an std, I just think you can use the acronim for more then one thing (I probably did not spell acronim right but who cares :D ) I just think its ironic so I put it there. All that stuff about the toyletts I understood it but mind you this is a gaming site... I dont think blind people play many rpgs or rts games, I mean, just show me one blind person who plays starcraft or diablo two, then I will be proven wrong but I highly doubt there are any out there. So why cater to non users needs.

[SirHans004]

did anyone even read my post yet???

[DaveSW]

where you have a hyperlink e.g.

<a href=http://www.pageresource.com>Page Resource.com<br>

You should have a closing tag:

<a href=http://www.pageresource.com>Page Resource.com</a><br>

You need to do that for every link

PS: it's the weekend buddy!!!

[SirHans004]

well, whenever i use </a> w3c's validator validator.w3.org says that there's no reason it should be closed because there's no open <a>...
so that's why i don't use </a>..
is there any other way i can "stop" the link?

go to the validator, copy&paste
http://hh.fateback.com/links.htm
and click validate

[Da Warriah]

its probably getting messed up because of the 20 links BEFORE it that havent been closed...close ALL the <a> tags, and you shouldnt get that problem....

[DaveSW]

<a href="http://www.pageresource.com">Page Resource.com</a><br>

you should also use quotes around the address - it will then validate

[SirHans004]

aha! yes, it works now-- thanks for the tip!

[SirHans004]

well, now i'm starting to switch to strict dtd.. bit by bit.
however, i have a few problems: on the links and link to me pages, there's a space below the image map... it shouldn't be there. (should i get rid of it, or should all my pages have it? i don't even know wat the prob is...)
also, on the link to me page, the image map is not centered-- it's maybe 20-50 pixels to the right of "centeredism". could anybody help me? i've been searching through my code and i can't seem to find the problem...
once i get these done with, i'll get to work with the strict dtd..
Links page (http://hh.fateback.com/links.htm)
Link to me page (http://hh.fateback.com/linktome.htm)