(I need) An Idiot's Guide To Webdesign

[Wozza]

Well, almost. I know a little bit of HTML (most of which, apparently, was obsolete about 5 years ago) and a little bit of Javascript, and that's about it. I just about know a single piece of CSS. Almost.

What I want is to become competent with webdesign languages in general, but I don't really know how to go about it. Should I even be starting with this sort of code, or should I be learning C and C++ first? Is there a book out there that I should have read? Or is it a huge stack of books?

Basically, any suggestions, explainations of how you learned what you've learned, pretty much anything that could help me along the way to understanding all of this crazy s**t ( =P ), would be very much appreciated.


Cheers-
Wozza

[Charles]

Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest the three following documents.

The HTML 4.01 Specification
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/

The CSS2 Specification
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/

If you don't have the foundation down straight then nothing else that you try to learn will be of any value.

[David Harrison]

I'm sure that those three documents are fine for some people, however I myself prefer learning from books, (you know, the things made from trees).

I have got two books which I found amazingly helpful when I was re-learning the basics (I self-taught myself wrong), and I still find them helpful as reference guides. They are:

Elizabeth Castro - HTML For The World Wide Web 5th Edition, With XHTML and CSS.

SAMS - Teach Yourself Javascript in 21 Days (Although I would recommend getting the 24 hours version first).

There may be many other better books out there but I can only recommend what I know about.

[pyro]

I agree somewhat with Charles. When one is learning to write HTML and CSS, it is important to keep the specs in mind, and write valid code. But, that might not be the easiest place to learn from. I'd recommend http://www.w3schools.com as a website to learn from.

[nkaisare]

The problem with 30-day course textbooks are that they give enough information for you to start building misinformation of your own. They are nice if you want to design pages for your family to view. But if you want to do serious webdesign, you need to give up the sesame-street approach.

For example, notice the difference between the quality of advice given by people like pyro, Robert Wellock, Stefan (where is he?) and Charles (just to name a few) vs advice given by ***I wont insert any name here***. The difference is that the former bunch of people know what they are talking... although some of their advice is more like bitter medicine :)

[pyro]

And to add another name to that list, we would, of course, need to include you, Nicket. :)

[Wozza]

Many thanks for the replies. So far, I've found the specification pages pretty tough going, since they're more (as the name implies) specifications than tutorials, but I imagine that learning from them rather than from a tutorial, and using them constantly as a reference, would end up giving a better understanding of...all this crazy s**t =P

Thanks once again, I'll no doubt be back very soon with some more stupid questions.

A third time, thank you all-
Wozza

[starrwriter]

Originally posted by Wozza
Many thanks for the replies. So far, I've found the specification pages pretty tough going, since they're more (as the name implies) specifications than tutorials, but I imagine that learning from them rather than from a tutorial, and using them constantly as a reference, would end up giving a better understanding of...all this crazy s**t =P

I know I'll catch hell for this, but here goes anyway:
Reading specifications when you don't know hardly anything about HTML or CSS is discouraging and not the quickest way to learn how to design web pages. The best way to learn is by doing and for you that means a WYSIWYG editor. Do layout in the visual mode, then study the source code created. After you practice this way and get the hang of it, then you'll be ready to start studying WC3 specs.

That's the way I learned web design and it worked just fine.

[pyro]

The code created by WYSI(N)WYG is generally very sloppy. The best I've seen is created by Dreamweaver MX, but still is not good source to learn from. If you want good source to learn from, find a site that validates HTML 4.01 Strict or XHTML and look at that code. That will be a thing of beauty, especially if it uses CSS for layout.

Originally posted by starrwriter
That's the way I learned web design and it worked just fine. Looking at the source behind your website might say otherwise, however. We see tables all over the place, extensive use of the <font> tag (aarggh), no doctype or charset definition, incorrect use of the style and script tags (no type attribute set for either), and more.

See, the problem with learning to code wrong is you then have to unlearn what you learned and relearn using a better method. I'm not a purist, here, as I'll use tables for layout when necessary. Look at my site -- a three column layout such as I have is nearly (if not) impossible using only CSS. But, I do not have nested tables. Simply one table, three rows, three columns (on the inner row). That's it. If you want to look at an example of a pure CSS/Valid HTML 4.01 Strict site, take a look at http://www.webdevfaqs.com

Now, as I said earlier, I don't think that a beginner is going to get much out of sitting down and reading the specs, but they should at least start by learning how to hard code their own sites, and find a good book/tutorial that doesn't rely on methods that are soon to be outdated.

[spufi]

I would also add that the reference at W3C Schools is a much better one for newbies to start out with. I know I personally visit it on a fairly regular basis. Yes, the links posted above are the best complete reference, but those can be tougher to grasp starting out.

[Aronya1]

For what it's worth, I like the layout of the tutorials on www.echoecho.com, although I haven't used them in awhile. Someone may find fault with them, but they're generally easy for a newbie to follow.

[Wozza]

Cheers once more =) The only WSGYWIGGYthingamebob I have is MS Frontpage, and even I can tell that that's buggered in the head. (anyone seen Havoc? That episode about the two kids on acid...? 'off their nanas after dropping acid, buggered in the head by an arrow'...? No? Nobody? Wassat? You don't even GET Havoc where you are?! Lord, what a sad state of affairs...) mm, off track.

Right, so, thanks one more time, I think the Frontpage idea is pretty much a non-starter, so I'll continue to look at lots of everything, and hope for the best.

Can't thank you all enough-
Wozza