my college doesn't teach the skills I think I need

[Enegimous]

They don't offer anything about AJAX, Ruby, Rails, nor any advanced courses in Java or ASP.Net. There were only two courses for Java and only one for ASP.Net

They claim they taught us JavaScript and Flash but that was a joke; it was really only Fireworks and to leave the JavaScript that it writes alone. :mad:

I study hard and try to learn more than they offer in class and I read a lot online. My prof's say to challenge myself and I do. I wouldn't even know about these other subjects otherwise. And I can, and will, study them on my own. All this just begs the question of: What am I going to school for???

My two main questions are:

1) Am I expecting too much, maybe these topics are too advanced for an undergrad???

2) What knowledge is required for an entry level position in web design, development and programming? (As in maybe they do teach enough and its just that I want to learn more.)

[NogDog]

As far as server-side languages, in descending order of marketability I would recommend learning Java, C#/C++, PHP.

You should also take some database classes and get some experience using a couple different RDBMS's, such as Oracle, MS SQL, MySQL, and/or Postgre.

Once you've learned a couple different programming languages and understand databases and SQL, learning some other programming language becomes mostly a matter of learning a new syntax; not how to program.

PS: AJAX is just a specific usage of JavaScript along with your web server-side language of choice. If you have basic skills in both JavaScript and your server-side language, you can learn the essentials of using AJAX patterns in a day or so.

[bubbisthedog]

I've worked with people in this profession with English, Math and Physics majors. I know others who do the networking side with either no degrees or degrees in something other than IT. I have a math degree (applied linear algebraic methods and statistics) and got hired as a programmer and database analyst. I did what I loved in college first and foremost, teaching myself the ins-and-outs of programming and SQL (with much help from people on forums like this one) along the way. And now after only several years I'm very marketable having been trained in mathematics (bosses love analytical skills and logic skills) with plenty of Web and database experience. I can also put on my resume how I've applied my math skills at my job, which I've unexpectedly --to my employers at least-- applied quite often to the company's benefit. For those with English degrees in my profession, I've seen them excel and innovate in the tech writing department; again, they've got an edge over your trained Comp Sci major (at least from what I've noticed).

I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that Comp Sci is in fact 'useless' or less valuable than getting another degree and learning the tech stuff on your own; all I'm saying is that from my experience I've noticed that people with other degrees, coupled with tech experience learned on their own, can cover more areas in the workplace.

[Enegimous]

I should have said that I know sql too...and database design and program development and uml and that I'm beginning my senior year and so on...

The thing is that I have taken all the programming and such that they require and it seems like a lot is missing. I want to know if this is standard or if my school sucks of if it just me since I want to learn so many other things that they don't even have available as electives.

[Stephen Philbin]

It's your school that sucks. When it comes to web development, most do. Don't worry about "AJAX". It's just a stupid buzzword people use to sound like they know more than they actually do. It's just Javascript making a HTTP request for content of various types and then sticking it in the currently displaying document. Like Cap'n Nog said, it can involve a server side language too, but that's not always the case. It can also be a call to a completely static data object.

I was thinking of going for a degree this year, but I'm starting a little lower down the ladder and going for some kind of web development course my local college is doing this year, then taking a bridging course up to degree level. I'm hoping my course won't be a total waste of time too. It seems rather hit-and-miss when it comes to formal education in web development (although for my degree I'm leaning more towards computer science and networking).

Just in case you're wondering how I learned my craft; I came here and learned from folks like Cap'n Nog to start with. Once I'd got on my feet, I jumped in at the deep end and installed Linux over my Windows OS and then installed OpenSSL, MySQL, Apache 2 and PHP (and one or two other bits and bobs) from source and just got stuck into reading all the documentation in the manuals for each program. Then I moved on to getting used to reading the recommendations at the W3C. It took me a while to get used to their terminology and how they do things, but it sure makes life easier just being able to go straight to the authoritative source and know what they're talking about.

I also like reading from these places because they tend not to get caught up in all the buzz-word bull-****, that seems inherent in much of the web development community.

[Enegimous]

I'm there too! I just installed Kubuntu over the weekend: apache2, mysql, java, netbeans, ruby and rails are all installed and ready to go! It's awesome and I'm really happy with it!

As for the rest, thanks for your thoughts. What I do is read a lot of tutorials, then practice using whatever. Like I do know what Ajax is but I don't know JavaScript all that well, yet. I an extremely disappointed in my school since they claim they have taught me JavaScript when they most certainly have not as I was saying earlier on in the thread. Actually learning it on my own hasn't been too bad. I guess it's true what people say that once you learn a few languages the rest is syntax.

I do know how to program but I don't know how to make use of it and really apply all that I do know. Like now that I've learned about UML and development I'd like to use it all the way through and actually write a program. That's another class that's missing from my school.

This is all stuff I can learn on my own. I can do it. I just really disappointed to have gone to college all this time and spent all the $$$ just to end up not being qualified nor having enough knowledge to get an entry level position.
Sure I know how to program, I know basic and java and now some javascript, I can use VB and ASP.net, and I love to work with netbeans. I also know sql and how to develop a database, I can use ADO.net and sql server; I know how (and why) to write stored procs. (I probably know other things too that I can't think of right now.)

I know the basics, but I don't know anything in depth or with detail; actual experience is close to nil. This is part of the problem, we just flew through all this at about an 8th-grade level. And now I supposed to find a job with this poor half-assed education. I studied extra and I do have the grades: 3.95, 1 B in eCommerce, all the rest were A's. And I do continue to study and learn but I am not where I need to be, all things considered.

[mneil]

I'm sort of in the same boat as you Enegimous. I'm a few classes away from finishing up my bachelor's and many of the classes I've taken were hogwash. I Started out as a comp sci major and ended up with an AA in graphic design and my new major is communications with a double minor in art and marketing. I did this because the classes only taught basics; things people who enjoy the stuff typically already know. I just do a ton of reading on my own, practice, practice, practice. I've already got a job doing what want so I can get some experience. I was worried I was underqualified when I first took the job and quickly learned that I knew more than I thought. If you really love it then you'll be able to do just fine when you graduate!

[Enegimous]

I do really love it! :) Thanks for the encouragement! I'll give my own studies a higher priority. It'll make me happier and give me some [much needed] confidence. Still have to have that piece of paper though...even if it is worthless. Thanks for posting mneil!

[tracknut]

I'll add my two cents along the lines Bubbis spoke of. I got my degree about 25 years ago now, but I don't think things have changed. Your undergrad program should focus you on breadth rather than depth. How are those English classes coming? Business? Engineering?

10 years from now, the fact that your college didn't teach you AJAX is going to seem like the most trivial, irrelevant concern, you won't believe it. It's your breadth of knowledge that's going to count in the long run. You can learn the Language Of The Day next weekend.

Dave

[Enegimous]

I thought I would tackle events in JavaScript today...

There is no breadth nor depth in anything; it doesn't matter. It's all stuff a sixth grader could do.

<sarcasm>
Oooo, wee, professional writing at a sixth grade level; that's another $2000 down the drain.
</sarcasm>

Sorry tracknut, but your not getting it! I am sick to death of getting 97-100% in my classes and not learning enough. It is a waste of time and money!

I'm mad, angry, and frustrated. My school is a rip-off! They are in business to make money. They provide the illusion of an education but I have looked behind the curtain and it's just a greedy unscrupulous lying bastard hiding behind it...

[tracknut]

Okay, I missed that this is an issue in all your courses, not just computer stuff. If that's the case, leave. I don't know why you'd continue to give them your money when there are plenty of actual good colleges around.

Dave

[Enegimous]

It's just like what I have already decided with everyones help. I will study on my own to learn the things I need but still go to school in the background so I can get that piece of paper. The education is crap but that piece of paper is still all important. I just needed to be sure if was the school or just me. Apparently it is both; it sounds like all the schools suck, and for myself, I really want to learn a lot more than they offer at any school. I am going to give my own studies priority and put less time and effort into the school work. I am going to quit busting my hump trying to find some value in my school work. With everyone's help I can see that it is just not going to be there. I'll be a lot happier studying want I think I need and less frustrated that I'm not getting anywhere. And I will also have more confidence that I won't just get laughed at during job interviews!

[Stephen Philbin]

For Javascript, I would very strongly recommend JavaScript: The Definitive Guide (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jscript5/?CMP=OTL-GB2088480187&ATT=jscript5). Before I bought (the fourth edition of) this book, I hated Javascript. Now, I don't worry about it. It's especially useful for its W3C DOM reference section (which I even use for my PHP). I'd think you'd get more value for money from this book than any course on the same subject might give.

[fullposter]

Ajax is not a real topic of study - that is, I wouldn't call such something you can easily do on your own in a matter of a few days. Resources online abounds, and you will probably need more time to sift them out than to learn ajax later.

QUOTE
I study hard and try to learn more than they offer in class
UNQUOTE

excellent, and i would encourage you. However, i hope you are aware that studying more than the professor said is very likely to get you rejected at your exams: too many profs would deem your overflooding expertise as an implicit message: "you forgot to teach this and that, and your course basically sucks". Which, being absolutely true, would p.o. them off even more...

QUOTE
Am I expecting too much, maybe these topics are too advanced for an undergrad???
UNQUOTE

Enegimous..... you ought never, never, never rely on anyone's else opinion about setting your expectations for yourself.
If you are vulnerable to flattery or to blame, you may do a good clerk but you will never be a terrific programmer.

The terrific ones challenge everything, they do not follow one single advice they read on the manuals (I'd rather say they take some pride in doing the exact contrary of what manuals say... when they feel playful), and they make errors all the time: productive errors.

Besides, since they are entirely founded upon themselves and do not need any external stimulus to feed their self esteem, they are normally also rather creative, and therefore focusing on far fetched horizons, and going after the real deal, they are even subject to make trivial errors continuously, errors that diligent programmers would not do.
Good programmers are NOT diligent :-) Good programmers are volcanos, you can't put a rein on them.

However, if you want to be a terrific programmer, beware: you will not be hired. Because those who interview you would not be at your level and every time you opem your mouth, they will feel challenged or, more simply, they would not understand you. Even worst, they will spot you at first sight - you won't even need to speak... they'll already know they don't need you. Firms do not need creativity, firms need platitudes.

No topics are too advanced if you have the enthusiasm and the determination. But first of all, quit qualifying yourself via academic scraps of papers or tags, viz "undergrad" - you are far more than the labels other guys may want to attach to you. Do not think by schemata that academies guide you into. Of course, if you don't, you will pass no exams, and you will never get hired.

But you want two contradictory things here - ajax they don't teach, and pass your exams. Make a decision lol

QUOTE
What knowledge is required for an entry level position in web design, development and programming?
UNQUOTE

that of a relative of the boss, or better of the boss him/herself. I may suggest you pay to him/her many drinks and you always say yessir. That's the only required knowledge, really (Of course, if you won't vomit as you go on.....). No caricature. If you don't believe it, u will see...
The knoweldge you need is that. Or alternatively, bribe them. You would be surprised how many good positions in the world have been bought!

good luck man!

[bflosabre91]

=:rolleyes:

[Jeff Mott]

I spent four years getting a bachelor's degree, and now I'm working full-time. In hindsight, I could have skipped college and started the same job four years ago. If I had, then today I'd be better qualified and almost $300,000 richer.

All my comp sci classes were a joke. Every one. You might think the degree at least distinguished me from others who don't have a clue what they're doing, but I don't think so. Most classes required only the memorize-regurgitate method of learning. The students would spit out an answer without even knowing what it meant. And for those who couldn't even memorize, there's the cry-and-beg method. I saw far too many computer-illiterate people graduate with a comp sci degree. If I were a hiring manager, I couldn't trust a degree to be an assurance of anything.

You need to read the specs, the references, the manuals. (Go easy on the tutorials; their completeness and correctness is never guaranteed.) You'll learn quicker. You'll learn better. And your financial situation will vastly improve.

But of course there are other considerations. As tracknut pointed out, general education can be important too. But from my experience, these classes aren't any different. The English teachers love to give writing assignments, like homework is the magic learning tool. They don't think to actually teach the craft of writing. As with comp sci, I think you'll learn quicker and better on your own.

Want to learn to write? Read Zinsser's "On Writing Well," Stilman's "Grammatically Correct," and "The Chicago Manual of Style" (about $55 for all three). Want to learn history? Read Roberts's "The New History of the World." Want to learn Psychology? Read the 12-volume "Handbook of Psychology." It covers everything from personality and educational to industrial and forensic Psychology.

Geology and chemistry, art and music, physics and math, and so many others -- I really believe you can learn them all better on your own than in schools. Because the beauty of learning from a well chosen book is that you choose the teacher. I bought a copy of Knuth's "The Art of Computer Programming." Knuth is a teacher at Standford University and the most renowned in his field. What better way to get a Stanford education without going broke?

I think you should give the non-college route a try, Enegimous. Don't quit just yet, but at least take a semester off. Decide what companies you'd like to work for, get in touch with a manager, and ask to work for them as an unpaid intern. It doesn't matter if they don't advertise internships; you're simply offering to work for free. Because if you don't have a degree on your resume, then you definitely want work experience.

But think long and hard. Whatever you decide, make sure you understand the reasons for it. Because if your parents ask why you quit school, you don't want to say, "The guy on the Internet told me to." ;-)

[NogDog]

There is no simple yes/no or good/bad answer here. If you want to get an entry-level job with IBM, CSC, Sun, etc. as a programmer with no significant prior experience, then you better have a relevant degree from a respected school with at least a 3.5 GPA.

On the other hand, if your goal is to start your own web site development business by drumming up your own customers, working many hours without a boss checking up on you, and developing a network of references; then any document from a university will be a very minor asset.

Then the whole spectrum of possibilities between those two extremes will have varying degrees of importance placed on having a degree. Some places may consider hiring a young twenty-something person with no significant experience based on demonstrated practical knowledge (and maybe an internal referral from a friend who already works there), but many will not.

[nshiell]

To be honest it is important to learn the concepts behind languages, the syntax is easy to pick up.
When I was at college i learnt 2 languages VBA and Turbo Pascal.

My Pascal teacher had been teaching for years, I learnt allot from her

I knew more than my VBA teacher I used to ask him questions that I knew he didn't know the answers to.

I wound up with a distinction from both units