Microsoft: IE8 Will Default to IE8 Standards Mode

[toicontien]

<voice type="Dr. Farnsworth">
Good news everyone!
</voice>

Microsoft's Interoperability Principles and IE8 (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/03/microsoft-s-interoperability-principles-and-ie8.aspx)

We’ve decided that IE8 will, by default, interpret web content in the most standards compliant way it can. ... We decided to keep IE7’s Standards mode available in IE8. ... Now, IE8 will show pages requesting “Standards” mode in IE8’s Standards mode. Developers who want their pages shown using IE8’s “IE7 Standards mode” will need to request that explicitly (using the http header/meta tag approach described here (http://alistapart.com/articles/beyonddoctype)).

Most comments seem positive. Microsoft cites possible legal liability issues revolving around their earlier announcement that IE8 will default to IE7's standard mode. Judging by the backlash in previous blog posts from around the Web, that's a baloney excuse. For some reason Microsoft seems reluctant to admit they listened to developers. But oh well. For the time being IE8 is slated to act like a real web browser. So for now, hooray. We'll see if IE8 actually ships with this behavior or if they'll change their mind last minute to get their way, and so none of the ensuing flack they'll get will be worth the paper it's not printed on.

[TJ111]

Just saw the article over on ars technica (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080303-sanity-prevails-ie8-will-default-to-standard-compliant-mode.html). This is good news for all developers. People developing business applications can lock their creations into certain versions of a browser without having to worry further about MS "breaking" them, and standard developers will no longer be tied to "opting in" for standards. And now A List Apart can publish some articles about something other then IE8 and its "standards".

[Compguy Pete]

Ya I cant say I'm horribly upset by this... I really don't like the way most sites look in IE7. and by standards, at least it will follow some standard.

This isn't the typical "digg - everything sucks from Microsoft" type of issue.

[toicontien]

Yup. All we want is Internet Explorer to act like a Web browser. It cheered me up this morning.

[Jeff Mott]

I suppose I'm in the minority who plans to make IE8 render my sites in IE7 mode.

My reasoning is actually quite simple: IE8 won't make my job any easier. It may even make my job harder. Will I be able to stop writing CSS hacks with the new, standards compliant IE? Nope. Because I'll still need to support IE6 and IE7. IE8 will only add another browser in which I'll need to check the entire site, and another set of bugs I'll need to hack through.

On the other hand, if I've already put in the time to ensure the site works in IE6 and IE7, then I can automatically support IE8 without any extra effort just by having it render as IE7. So everyone sees the same thing, and I don't need to do any extra work to make that happen.

IE8 won't be truly useful until IE6 & 7 are both phased out... probably a decade at least.

[toicontien]

My reasoning is actually quite simple: IE8 won't make my job any easier. It may even make my job harder. Will I be able to stop writing CSS hacks with the new, standards compliant IE? Nope. Because I'll still need to support IE6 and IE7. IE8 will only add another browser in which I'll need to check the entire site, and another set of bugs I'll need to hack through.

I have to disagree with this. I think keeping IE8 rendering in IE7 mode could introduce even MORE bugs to the IE7 mode, breaking the actual version of IE7. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. IE8 cannot quack exactly like IE7.

With the abolishment of hasLayout, I don't think IE8 will require as many hacks as IE7. I'm hoping it will be as good as Firefox, Safari and Opera, while knowing that it will probably ship with some bugs. I don't think many people realize just how much of the Trident rendering engine has been replumbed. It'd by like swapping out the 100 year old engine in a Ford Model-T with a brand new Corvette V8, electronic controlled and fuel injected.

With all that remodeling, it's hard to believe that IE8 will come with three distinct sets of rendering engines all running their own unique code (quirks mode, IE7 mode and standards mode). It will all be one rendering engine with lots and lots of if-elseif and switch statements in the code to "switch" rendering modes. I think IE7 mode in IE8 has the possibility for more bugs than the actual original version of IE7.

Besides, I always check all of the major browsers on my projects. I develop in Firefox, hack for IE, then I look at Safari and Opera. Ninety-nine percent of the time Safari and Opera don't say boo, but I still test anyway. I'm willing to bet that IE8 will require a similar amount of testing, with me looking at 90 to 99 percent of the pages and saying "that looks fine," and then the remaining pages saying "$%@ IE! ... wait... that's not so horrific."

On the other hand, if I've already put in the time to ensure the site works in IE6 and IE7, then I can automatically support IE8 without any extra effort just by having it render as IE7. So everyone sees the same thing, and I don't need to do any extra work to make that happen.
If I don't totally trust that IE8 standards mode will be bug free, how can I trust that IE7 mode in IE8 will render exactly like the real version 7?

IE8 won't be truly useful until IE6 & 7 are both phased out... probably a decade at least.
I'll drink that one!

[Jeff Mott]

It will all be one rendering engine with lots and lots of if-elseif and switch statements in the code to "switch" rendering modes. I think IE7 mode in IE8 has the possibility for more bugs than the actual original version of IE7.The way you describe the implementation, I can see how you might think there will be lots of bugs. But I very much doubt it would be done that way. There wouldn't be "lots and lots of if-elseif." That would just be silly. It will probably be something like:

if (HasValidDoctype) {
if (UseIE7Compatible)
IE7.RenderPage();
else
IE8.RenderPage();
}
else {
IEQuirks.RenderPage();
}

The logic for choosing rendering modes doesn't need to go any deeper than this. So most likely IE7 mode will in fact behave exactly like IE7.

[dtm32236]

When is IE8 supposed to come out?

Hopefully by then, IE6 will be phased out, at least down to a small percentage of users.

Today, less than 2% of internet surfers use IE5 (and only .1% of people that visit my site use it), so I don't test my site for IE5 users. 'F' them. Hopefully the same will happen with IE6 when IE8 comes out.

Anyway, this is all good news. Actually, it's the first time I've been [somewhat] happy with MS in years.

[Jeff Mott]

There isn't any date set. The IE8 beta hasn't even been released yet. (For a little perspective, IE7 was release a little more than a year after its first beta.)

[dtm32236]

For a little perspective, IE7 was release a little more than a year after its first beta

good job microsoft - so, maybe IE6 will be phased out by the time IE8 is out. that's good to hear.

[toicontien]

... There wouldn't be "lots and lots of if-elseif." That would just be silly. It will probably be something like:

if (HasValidDoctype) {
if (UseIE7Compatible)
IE7.RenderPage();
else
IE8.RenderPage();
}
else {
IEQuirks.RenderPage();
}

The logic for choosing rendering modes doesn't need to go any deeper than this. So most likely IE7 mode will in fact behave exactly like IE7.
From the perspective of program maintenance, that makes the most sense, but from the perspective of performance and compactness, that means IE8 is literally three web browsers with three times the rendering engine code.

I dunno. I suppose us arguing about this is a bit like humans arguing about whether we evolved or were created in six days. Were weren't there when it happened, and we didn't do it. :D

Anyway. If IE8 gets the standards right, or even mostly right, I'll be happy.

[toicontien]

Darn! Darn! Darn! Darn! Darn! I just remembered that it's "Prof. Farnsworth" not "Dr. Farnsworth!"

Prof. Farnsworth: Bad news everyone! Toicontien sucks at Futurama quotes.

[dtm32236]

Prof. Farnsworth: Bad news everyone! Toicontien sucks at Futurama quotes.

hahhahhaa. I wasn't gonna say it - but, you're right, it's Prof. Fransworth.

Have you seen the Bender movie yet? (it's great - watch it).

[toicontien]

No I haven't but I want to!

[Jeff Mott]

that means IE8 is literally three web browsers with three times the rendering engine codeYup.

I suppose us arguing about this is a bit like humans arguing about whether we evolved or were created in six days. Were weren't there when it happened, and we didn't do it.Of course, we weren't physically present for most things we know.