Uk Gov new legislation for disabled access to websites. [Archive]

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 06:49 PM

Hi Group,
busy day in UK goverment for web developers. Ensuring web sites are easy for disabled people to use is no longer an option - it is a legal obligation. The new legislation applies anyone who runs a website - individuals or companies.
I need to track down any information regarding the standards required so if anyone has any good links can you post them here, like wise if i find any i will repost them here. Got to go explain this to my boss, another few months work ahead!

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:10 PM

Is there anyway you can just keep your site the way it is but then do a browser detect before you get to it and on the page with the browser detect would be just a basic text only sort of layout? It would keep you from having to redo your whole site. I dont know how strict this law is over there though. Ribeyed have you been using css for your layouts or tables? Because I remember back in the day you showed me... well its the same e-commerce site in your signiture now, is that the site for your boss?

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 07:18 PM

Amazing..now a government is telling people how to run their own sites.

I hope this only applies to business sites and not personal ones..if so then they go too far.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 07:24 PM

lol, cheers peofeo putting me on the spot with CSS, thanks, lol.

Is there anyway you can just keep your site the way it is but then do a browser detect before you get to it and on the page with the browser detect would be just a basic text only sort of layout?

lol, lmao, rofl !!!!!!!!!!!

what to find out if the user is disabled???????

haha.....

In the artical i read it did mention about text based and not Flash'ed up and all graphics, also mention about having texted labels etc. which my site has already, but what else?
You got to remember that a lot of blind people use the internet and use voice software to browse, so maybe i need to do something that would allow browsing my site using voice activation software, i just don't know.

Ribeyed have you been using css for your layouts or tables?

lol on the spot.................TABLES, NESTED ones at that. As i have said to you previously i have work on this site for over 2 years now, it is around 200 pages and doesn't warrent me changing to CSS for layout boss just wouldn't have that. I only found out about CSS about 1 year ago to late to apply to this site.

is that the site for your boss?

Yes......same one, never going to get this finished, i'll be old and gray...dam, already going gray :), before its completed. :D

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:24 PM

I sort of aggree with it... but it will be hard to regulate unless it is only targeting business sites.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 07:25 PM

Dark Dragon both

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:27 PM

Well, I cant fully kick the table habbit, I have been trying to use hybrid layouts. I have tried to make due without tables but then it all craps up on ie, fluid design + css + iframe + % width + right margin is almost completly ignored by ie = one messed up page.

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:29 PM

Also ribeyed yea the detect would be just to see if they are enables, I guess you can make one pretty easily with asp, well I am assuming you did your own tracking and you are logging a whole lot of those server variables correct???

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 07:29 PM

Hmm..I think many will simply give up on having their own sites if governments can now dictate how to make them.

Like I said, I can understand making a business site more accessible for those in need but if a slob like me has a cruddy little site..why should I make it accessible to every joe out there..not like my site is of any value..which it ain't. :D

Jona

09-18-2003, 07:33 PM

I use CSS, thanks to Charles, Robert, and a few other validationists. :D I'm actually pleased to hear that this law has been put in the UK--hopefully it will reach the US as well, and we'll put an end to these popups!

[J]ona

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 07:34 PM

hi,
i agree/disagree with you Dark Dragon one word springs to mind "racism". Not saying you are racist but thats the way it is seen. "Equal rights" for all and all that. If you develop a site it must be accessable to both abled and disabled or you are being racist and in Uk that is illigal, can't win, need to join senario here.

Jona

09-18-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
Hmm..I think many will simply give up on having their own sites if governments can now dictate how to make them.

If the site is so "cruddy" and of no value to those whom are disabled, of what value is it to those who can see it? Why even have it?

[J]ona

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:40 PM

Like I said before ribeyed why not just use an asp page to grab some server variables then send the user to either a diablilities / lynx and other cruddy browser page, and send all of the modern users to your normal page, If you have as many pages as you say you have I would think it would be an easier solution. Making a page for the disabled is much simpler then redoing all of your code and redoing all of your graphics so they fit into divs with a css layout and ditch the tables etc etc.

Jona

09-18-2003, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Like I said before ribeyed why not just use an asp page to grab some server variables then send the user to either a diablilities / lynx and other cruddy browser page, and send all of the modern users to your normal page, If you have as many pages as you say you have I would think it would be an easier solution. Making a page for the disabled is much simpler then redoing all of your code and redoing all of your graphics so they fit into divs with a css layout and ditch the tables etc etc.

Personally, I believe making the site look nice and at the same time accessible is the best way to do it. Yes, it is possible, although it can be quite difficult at times...

[J]ona

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 07:42 PM

ok Peofeo sorry don't think you got my humour there, not to worry, lol. Yes i do database all server variables, but don't know if or how to detect if voice software is being use. I don't know what to even do if i could detect voice software is being used .:confused:
I mean can you us voice software to select hyperlinks, fill textboxes, select dropdown options using voice software???
If you can does it require any additional code on the website site, does it need a plug in on the client side?
these are the questions i need to find answers to.

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:44 PM

but he has a whole lot of different pages, to redo all of them (even with your layout in a separate css file) would be a ton of work. The worst part is he has made this site before and would probably keep a new layout pretty similar so this would also be tediaous work where you dont do a lot of learning in the process.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 07:44 PM

hi,

Like I said before ribeyed why not just use an asp page to grab some server variables then send the user to either a diablilities / lynx and other cruddy browser page, and send all of the modern users to your normal page, If you have as many pages as you say you have I would think it would be an easier solution. Making a page for the disabled is much simpler then redoing all of your code and redoing all of your graphics so they fit into divs with a css layout and ditch the tables etc etc.

Totally BAD idea m8. Sorry but i am right into SEO and Google doesn't like that, will lower my page ranking.

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 07:47 PM

Jona

09-18-2003, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by [SWR]Ribeyed
I mean can you us voice software to select hyperlinks, fill textboxes, select dropdown options using voice software???
If you can does it require any additional code on the website site, does it need a plug in on the client side?
these are the questions i need to find answers to.

The alternative, in this case, would be to direct the user to a certain folder in which the whole site is accessible through simplified and accessible documents. In the case of forms, you'd simply do something like this:

Name: _______________________________

Address: ___________________________________________

Etcetera... You get the idea, though, lol. Basically you'd just direct them to a text-only part of the site, and replace online forms with simple text and underscores to replace where the form object would have been on the page in HTML.

[J]ona

Jona

09-18-2003, 07:50 PM

(After reading your reply above, [SWR]Ribeyed, this is a continuation of my previous reply.)

In the event that you do not want to redirect the user, and if you did have the ability to check if they had that software installed, you'd probably have the ability to print out different code on the same page, depending on what they're using.

[J]ona

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 07:55 PM

If the site is so "cruddy" and of no value to those whom are disabled, of what value is it to those who can see it? Why even have it?

Precisely my point..I only have it as a test base..however I am also not selling anything so why would a visually impaired person care about it then?

That is my point too...

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 07:58 PM

Hi Jona,
thanks your for your reply, err: confused: nope i don't get what you mean. I get the whole other site, but you don't understand the size of the site, the functionality that has been coded into the site, 2 years worth of full time work has went into the site. Its fully e-commerce enabled with a stock control system built into it. It has around 90 pages of admin (not needing to be enabled for disabled), a delivery calculating system. About 100 pages have thousands of lines of code. Backend around 50 tables in SQL Server, database replication over VPN's linking into an EPOS system in a phisical retail shop. I only just finished a returns form with 5,000 lines of code. You get the idea :)

Saying all that i am interested in your idea, but i don't understand how replacing form elements with lines in a text only file is going to allow me to take in information from a disabled user using voice activation software.

pyro

09-18-2003, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
I only have it as a test baseSince you are supposed to/need to use accessable code, just use it while you are testing... :D

I do, however see your point, and for now, in the US, you don't need to produce accessable code for your personal web pages, though I'd highly recommend using accessable, valid code whenever you are programming. One day, I hope that if the (X)HTML/CSS code is not valid, it simply doesn't work... It can even be seen sometimes in the browsers we have now.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 08:01 PM

Well I was just trying to figure out the simplest way to do it without making your site look like a train wreck to those with graphical browsers. Humm... How about looking for information on screen readers themselves.

Sounds good, screen reader, what do you mean?

dam to many people confusing me tonight msut be to much dope :D, lol

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 08:02 PM

If you develop a site it must be accessable to both abled and disabled or you are being racist and in Uk that is illigal, can't win, need to join senario here.

No..I disagree.

All I have on my site is video game related junk..no one can tell me a visually impaired person is going to be interested in video games.

If I was actually selling something or offering an online editorial service or something of actual value then I would make the effort to make it accesible...I really don't need labels because believe it or not, I am not racist..that is pretty insulting. :(

There is also the problem of compatibility too..there is so many browsers and programs with exclusive and proprietary code that one gets a migraine just trying to navigate it.

I would like to see companies creating programs that are compatible with browsers and vice versa....

Jona

09-18-2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
Precisely my point..I only have it as a test base..however I am also not selling anything so why would a visually impaired person care about it then?

That is my point too...

If you're "testing" anything, you're testing how to make a Web site, correct? If you cannot make one properly, there would be no reason to make one, so why are you trying to learn? If you're going to learn it, you should learn it properly. So your "test base" should be created properly, at least to the best of your ability. I suggest making your site offline and validating it, after which you can upload it. Why not try that?

[J]ona

Jona

09-18-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by [SWR]Ribeyed
Hi Jona,
thanks your for your reply, err: confused: nope i don't get what you mean. I get the whole other site, but you don't understand the size of the site, the functionality that has been coded into the site, 2 years worth of full time work has went into the site. Its fully e-commerce enabled with a stock control system built into it. It has around 90 pages of admin (not needing to be enabled for disabled), a delivery calculating system. About 100 pages have thousands of lines of code. Backend around 50 tables in SQL Server, database replication over VPN's linking into an EPOS system in a phisical retail shop. I only just finished a returns form with 5,000 lines of code. You get the idea :)

Saying all that i am interested in your idea, but i don't understand how replacing form elements with lines in a text only file is going to allow me to take in information from a disabled user using voice activation software.

Note: if you could detect the software. ;)

[J]ona

Jona

09-18-2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
No..I disagree.

All I have on my site is video game related junk..no one can tell me a visually impaired person is going to be interested in video games.

If I was actually selling something or offering an online editorial service or something of actual value then I would make the effort to make it accesible...I really don't need labels because believe it or not, I am not racist..that is pretty insulting. :(

What if it's a blind adult looking for a video game for a younger friend or relative?

[J]ona

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 08:08 PM

I am not racist..that is pretty insulting.

please accept my apologies, i never intended for you to interpret what i wrote as accusing you of being racist, that is not me, sorry :D

My point was that is the eyes of this legislation that’s what a individual would be accused of if their personal site was not accessible to disabled users.

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 08:11 PM

I suggest making your site offline and validating it, after which you can upload it. Why not try that?

Because I am not planning on selling anything or offering any services..originally I was gonna do a anime or game site but since that is fruitless I just try out things and slap a few things together. I know that in your book it is pointless but also for the content I am doing, only a few people would actually care about that subject matter anyways...

I see nothing wrong with getting acquainted with CSS and other stuff...I just simply do not have anything worthwhile enough to "share" with anyone....still doesn't mean I stop learning things.

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 08:15 PM

Tis okay RibEye..no biggie.

Jona..I doubt a severly visually challenged person is going to care much about that stuff anyways..besides if they were there are actual sites that sell the stuff.

My site is a "fan" site or whatever..people like that aren't gonna care about fan sites. ;)

However what I see happening is that the software doesn't seem to be keeping pace with peoples need or budgets..it would be nice to see various specialty software available at a price that is affordable to everyone.

That is also part of the accessibility issue too.

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 08:24 PM

Hey..I just thought of something..if the legislation is passed then wouldn't there also be a need to push for some sort of standards in browsers..so you don't have that headache with Navigator, IE and Mozzilla?

I would think that would ease the pain a bit.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 08:33 PM

Hi,
ok done some research into what is needed to conform to this legislation.

Firstly here is the article i read which was the reason behind my post

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3117050.stm

did a small bit of research and found this useful information

Accessibility is the degree to which anyone can access and use a website using any web browsing technology. A fully accessible site is one that is designed to make use of the latest web technologies such as multimedia, while at the same time accommodating the needs of those who have difficulty with or are unable to use these technologies.

Accessibility is not about dull, boring websites
Text-only sites can be useful for someone using speech or braille output or even a mobile phone. However well designed graphics and multimedia are a positive aid to using and understanding websites for the rest of the browsing public, and do not need to be sacrificed for accessibility.

Design for all
Accessibility is about flexibility in design. Designers need to think in terms of providing more than one way of doing things on a website, so that if a user is unable to use one method, other options are available to them.

Tackling myths and assumptions
Accessibility is also about avoiding myths and assumptions about how and why people use the web. It may surprise you to learn that accessibility benefits everyone who uses your website, not just people who have a disability.

Some examples of the types of assumptions and mistakes that are commonly made:

Everyone can use a mouse.
Everyone can upgrade to the latest browser or download the required plug-in.
Blind people can't drive, so they won't be interested in a website about cars.
A better web experience for everyone
Accessibility is about understanding and supporting the needs of the people who visit your website. A well-designed site will remove the barriers that may prevent people from entering and using it.

A website that is accessible will provide the same level of experience to everyone who visits it, regardless of his or her level of ability or disability.

from here:
http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/InternetHome.hcsp

I notice that they will be running seminars so i will book my place and anything useful i will post here.:D

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 08:39 PM

if the legislation is passed

IF? It has that was the point of the post, i have to get my works site to conform and quick!

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 08:44 PM

Blind people can't drive, so they won't be interested in a website about cars.

Heh..yeah but in Wisconsin there was a debate going on to let blind people hunt..twas no joke either.

Anywhoo...the problem also lies in that it is an awful strain for a person to keep up on the latest technology too.

However, some things rely on visuals, like video gaming..that really requires site to utilize, so a visually impaired person is not going to care about it. ;)

However if I had to think about all the types of impairments that are out there, I'd think twice about web making.

But some sort of standars being set in place would be helpful too...don'cha think?

What about fan sites? They cater to a select few. But it also puts pressure on people who don't know how to do all that coding and cannot themselves afford to have it done for them and not everyone, like myself, is interested in hard coding....oh well.

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 08:46 PM

IF? It has that was the point of the post, i have to get my works site to conform and quick!

Sorry..I was speaking of the U.S in that sense.

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 08:56 PM

This has got to be the fastest growing thread in the history of the forums.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 08:59 PM

However, some things rely on visuals, like video gaming..that really requires site to utilize, so a visually impaired person is not going to care about it.

Dark you going have to ditch that, you just can say that a disabled person is not going to care. If your goverment adopts the same like as the UK do you think they will allow you do say "doesn't matter they wouldn't care about my site anyway", i don't think so. Its all about equal rights.

I do agree with the need for standards but we will be waiting a long time for that, well in Internet terms a long time. And i do agree it will cause lots of problems with DIY web developers. It's the Voluntary Sector that is going to be hit bad with it.
Home users well, don't think most people will bother, if anything most would just close the site down, ditch it.

Business, which effects me in a big way are goign to be hit bad with this, already i am panicing.

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 09:09 PM

What did I say that was so wrong? I expressed a view...I am not out to insult you or anyone....

If your goverment adopts the same like as the UK do you think they will allow you do say "doesn't matter they wouldn't care about my site anyway"

I really have nothing to offer so I won't have a site then. :)

If I am going to be forced to make a silly little art or fan site accesible to everyone, even those who really cannot utilize it then maybe I just won't have one..no loss there ;)

Besides it would take lots of extra education just to implement the coding needed to provide accessibility..I am not sure many web making programs take that into consideration though...also what about host sites...if ones site does accomodate everyone do all of the hosting services provide such support too? I wonder sometimes.

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 09:12 PM

Well I am interested in how to resolve this too, I have taken neccessary precautions on the index page of my site (Not all of the seconday pages are going to work for someone with disabilites but those you mainly have to login to use and we dont have any disabled people in this group) For example I did the iframe links and my layout like I said is a hybrid and because of the css it breaks down for browsers like lynx and will still function, but I dont know what would happen with a screan reader or those braille boards.

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 09:14 PM

What did I say that was so wrong?

so a visually impaired person is not going to care about it.

people like that aren't gonna care about fan sites

no one can tell me a visually impaired person is going to be interested in video games.

No one said you can't express your views. Now one is make you out to be a monster your doing a good job of that yourself.

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 09:17 PM

Lets get back to the subject before this turns into a bit of a argument...

Dark Dragon

09-18-2003, 09:19 PM

No one said you can't express your views. Now one is make you out to be a monster your doing a good job of that yourself.

I tried to be civil and truthful...not hurtful...but that was totally uncalled for RibEye!

Ribeyed

09-18-2003, 09:22 PM

i am visually impared do you not think you have offended me enough in all your posts?

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 09:24 PM

DUH DUH DUH (Dramatic sounding) Please dont get this thread locked you two... I need to here some resoltuions about disabilities here.

Jona

09-18-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
[B]ut I dont know what would happen with a screan reader or those braille boards.

You can purchase a screen reader, but they're kind of expensive... (Somethin' like $100 or something like that. AdamBrill purchased one, I believe, so you might want to ask him about it.)

[J]ona

PeOfEo

09-18-2003, 10:20 PM

Oh really! Nice because I did not want to buy one... It would be kind of hard to get a pirated copy of something like that too.

Jona

09-18-2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Oh really! Nice because I did not want to buy one... It would be kind of hard to get a pirated copy of something like that too.

Ha ha, yeah.

[J]ona

cmarincu

09-19-2003, 07:15 AM

creating accessible web content is not THAT difficult.

the "official" recommendations mentioned in the DDA (the UK "law") is the W3C's Web Content Accessible Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/). In the document, "how to"'s are provided for each guideline (they are calling them "techniques")

but the WCAG can get a bit confusing. I've found very usefull and easy to understand Joe Clark's book "Building Accessible Web Sites". Loads of examples and explanations for every web design experience level.

it will take a bit of effort to design accessible web content, but i think it's worth it.

cheers
;)

AdamBrill

09-19-2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Jona
AdamBrill purchased one, I believe, so you might want to ask him about it.)Well, I didn't purchase one, but I did have one. ;) I downloaded the demo of one(if anyone is interested, I could probably find the link...) because I was tired of not knowing how they handle it. :) This is how it worked:

1. Tables seemed to work fine. Whether the layout was with tables or with divs, it seemed to handle it the same.

2. JavaScript worked fine. Links such as document.location=wherever worked fine, as did window.open, etc.

3. It wasn't nearly as bad to use as I thought it would be. ;)

So, they really aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be... If you're interested in downloading it, however, I must warn you that when I uninstalled it, it messed up a few things on my computer. The biggest thing was that it no longer worked to click on a link in an e-mail, which was quite annoying. :)

Oh, and to keep Charles off my back(:p), these results are for this screen reader only, not all screen readers. I have only tried the one, so I don't know how other ones will handle anything...

Robert Wellock

09-19-2003, 08:57 AM

Technically anyone who puts up a live website hosted within the UK even if they just do it for a non-profit making hobby could get sued, if certain regulations get passed.

Though in reality it will mainly focus upon business websites, because I am sure the RNIB are not going to go after myself http://www.xhtmlcoder.com/worthvalley/ or little Johnny across the road that has one page about his favourite cartoon character...

Download JAWS for Windows, it's free and runs for around 40 minutes after POST bootstrap.