careyf
09-30-2003, 08:50 PM
I'm curious - can anyone give me a list of large (business) websites that use CSS and HTML 4.01 Strict? Even better, ones that are running over SSL? I would love to view their source and see how they have managed it.
Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Business sites and CSS?
toicontien
09-30-2003, 10:11 PM
Two sites come to mind right away.
http://www.opera.com/ - Makers of the Opera web browser. They use XHTML and a CSS laytout.
http://www.deviantart.com/ - Extremely popular artists web site that covers virtually every genre of written, painted, photographed, and computer generated art. They use XHTML and a CSS layout too.
http://www.w3.org/ - Home of the World Wide Web Consortium (though they aren't a main stream business, it is a huge site).
http://www.opera.com/ - Makers of the Opera web browser. They use XHTML and a CSS laytout.
http://www.deviantart.com/ - Extremely popular artists web site that covers virtually every genre of written, painted, photographed, and computer generated art. They use XHTML and a CSS layout too.
http://www.w3.org/ - Home of the World Wide Web Consortium (though they aren't a main stream business, it is a huge site).
pyro
09-30-2003, 11:08 PM
For some large commercial sites, take a look at:
http://www.alltheweb.com
http://www.wired.com
http://www.espn.com
http://www.alltheweb.com
http://www.wired.com
http://www.espn.com
MotherNatrsSon
10-01-2003, 01:33 AM
LMAO The W3C uses tables for layout....and some of the pages don't validate either. This was brought up on another forum I frequent....LOL
All of the sites listed, IF they actually use css for a layout, have a javascript browser detection script and serve up separate style sheets or their layouts would not work cross browser, plain and simple.
Any "business" site that uses SSL to accept credit cards is what I think he is after.
My business site is HTML 4.01 transitional with very, very little CSS at all and I have no problems with it being cross browser/cross platform AND no javascript......
MNS
All of the sites listed, IF they actually use css for a layout, have a javascript browser detection script and serve up separate style sheets or their layouts would not work cross browser, plain and simple.
Any "business" site that uses SSL to accept credit cards is what I think he is after.
My business site is HTML 4.01 transitional with very, very little CSS at all and I have no problems with it being cross browser/cross platform AND no javascript......
MNS
pyro
10-01-2003, 07:00 AM
Which part of the W3C's site uses tables? Certain not the home page (or any of the others that I've ever viewed-source on...)
Charles
10-01-2003, 07:06 AM
In the past they had some pages that used a single cell TABLE to center things on the page. Not a big sin at the time but that was before non-visual user agents started to recognize the TABLE element.
MotherNatrsSon
10-01-2003, 06:16 PM
I'll have to see if I can dig up the thread. If I recall correctly there was one here in a thread that was linked to. I'll see what I can fid and get back.
MNS
ps There are several pages at the W3C that are CSS and tableless as well but there are still some in tables and that do not validate. They just havn't got around to updating them yet imho....
MNS
ps There are several pages at the W3C that are CSS and tableless as well but there are still some in tables and that do not validate. They just havn't got around to updating them yet imho....
careyf
10-03-2003, 06:28 AM
Well I had a look at deviantart and I'd have to agree with MNS, they're using some JavaScript sniffer for sure! It looks absolutely fantastic in IE and is extremely plain in Netscape 4.7. More surprisingly, it was also painfully slow in the latter, despite the minimal css.
pyro
10-03-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by careyf
Well I had a look at deviantart and I'd have to agree with MNS, they're using some JavaScript sniffer for sure!That is where you are wrong. What evidence do you use to justify that statement? The site does not use any (client side) browser detection (and even if they are detecting it server-side, it's not to send out different versions of the page). If you look at the page in Opera 7 with the stylesheets turned off (quite a nifty feature -- I use it often when designing) it looks the same as it does in NN 4.7. Making pages that look the same in all browsers is not the important part. The important part is making pages that are accessible to all (which includes media other than browsers).
Well I had a look at deviantart and I'd have to agree with MNS, they're using some JavaScript sniffer for sure!That is where you are wrong. What evidence do you use to justify that statement? The site does not use any (client side) browser detection (and even if they are detecting it server-side, it's not to send out different versions of the page). If you look at the page in Opera 7 with the stylesheets turned off (quite a nifty feature -- I use it often when designing) it looks the same as it does in NN 4.7. Making pages that look the same in all browsers is not the important part. The important part is making pages that are accessible to all (which includes media other than browsers).
toicontien
10-07-2003, 12:28 PM
I looked into deviantart.com and their CSS some more to make sure they weren't using any javascript detection, and they aren't.
Fire up Mozilla and turn off JavaScript. Ctrl + Shift + R to refresh the page without pulling it from the cache and you will get the same exact page, importing the same exact CSS files as if JavaScript were on.
I visited the site with IE and Opera, they get the same CSS files. So I'm willing to bet that no server-side client sniffers are in place.
The script that imports functions.js is a script to write the pop-up ads for the site.
Now, save the page as HTML only. Fire up Netscape 4.x and open the HTML file you just saved. You get the same looking site that you would if you went directly to www.deviantart.com with Netscape 4.x. So please. Next time you start accusing sites of using JavaScript sniffers, look at their source code and do a little experimenting. The point I'm getting at is you don't need to detect a client's browser. You can write CSS that degrades gracefully in older browsers.
And the part about Netscape 4.x looking drab on deviantart.com, who cares. The content isn't hidden. It's an old browser that few people use anymore, and if they are using it because they've got an old machine, they can always download Opera 7.x and get a much better browser that uses very few additional system resources.
Fire up Mozilla and turn off JavaScript. Ctrl + Shift + R to refresh the page without pulling it from the cache and you will get the same exact page, importing the same exact CSS files as if JavaScript were on.
I visited the site with IE and Opera, they get the same CSS files. So I'm willing to bet that no server-side client sniffers are in place.
The script that imports functions.js is a script to write the pop-up ads for the site.
Now, save the page as HTML only. Fire up Netscape 4.x and open the HTML file you just saved. You get the same looking site that you would if you went directly to www.deviantart.com with Netscape 4.x. So please. Next time you start accusing sites of using JavaScript sniffers, look at their source code and do a little experimenting. The point I'm getting at is you don't need to detect a client's browser. You can write CSS that degrades gracefully in older browsers.
And the part about Netscape 4.x looking drab on deviantart.com, who cares. The content isn't hidden. It's an old browser that few people use anymore, and if they are using it because they've got an old machine, they can always download Opera 7.x and get a much better browser that uses very few additional system resources.
nkaisare
10-07-2003, 01:22 PM
http://www.cingular.com
Not the best example to be cited here. But at least its a small step.
Not the best example to be cited here. But at least its a small step.
careyf
10-08-2003, 08:07 PM
sorry jumped too fast... you're right no javascript... but I do believe it (or perhaps some ad associated with it) kicked up some Java (not Javascript) code somewhere while it was starting, which is maybe why it was so slow.
Incidentally I don't have any complaint about it looking plain, just that it seemed to load very slowly for something that isn't really that fancy.
(yes netscape 4.7 is very old but you still get companies that want you to develop for it...)
Incidentally I don't have any complaint about it looking plain, just that it seemed to load very slowly for something that isn't really that fancy.
(yes netscape 4.7 is very old but you still get companies that want you to develop for it...)
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