I am always coming across sites for small businesses or charities that aren't very good. They are often on geocities/tripod/etc..., and have ads all over, which certainly doesn't make them any more appealing. I'm trying to build up a design portfolio, and I was wondering, in these situations, is it rude to offer a free redesign? I don't want to offend whoever made the site, but I kinda feel bad for them, and I do need to get some experience. Please give me any opinions!
PeOfEo
10-18-2003, 11:04 PM
Just give them suggestions and such instead.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-18-2003, 11:10 PM
How would I do that? I'm pretty sure that the makers of the sites used a WYSIWYG editor, and they probably have never seen or even heard of HTML. I don't think it would be a good idea to email them saying "You should get rid of the tables, use CSS, and make your pages XHTML-compliant". They wouldn't know what any of that is. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
PeOfEo
10-18-2003, 11:14 PM
Maybe just reccomend them to an ad-free free host. Their are numerous ones out there when you start looking, most of them cap the bandwidth but sites like this probably do not get much traqffic to begin with. Geocities caps traffic already and has ads so it would not make any difference there except for the absence of popups.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-18-2003, 11:22 PM
But what about a redesign? A hosting switch doesn't fix a "lacking" site. And I haven't heard of any free adless hosts.
Nifty! Never seen those. Still, though, in any circumstance, is it okay to offer a free redesign?
PeOfEo
10-18-2003, 11:29 PM
point them to new layouts maybe. www.bluerobot.com has some bare bones ones that can be modified. Send them to w3schools.org. http://www.thenoodleincident.com has some box layouts etc that are decent too.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-18-2003, 11:31 PM
As I said, though, these people (probably) know nothing about web design. The sites look like they were made using the "site builders" provided by geocities/tripod/etc...
PeOfEo
10-18-2003, 11:34 PM
Heh, Yell at them, tell them if they don't learn css they are hurting the blind people and that if they hurt blind people you will hurt them!
PunkSktBrdr01
10-18-2003, 11:37 PM
Good point! Just so you know, though, these are people I've never met. Not very fair to yell at them for doing (or not doing) something that they know nothing about. Anyway, if everyone knew HTML, the web designers of the world would be out of a profession.
PeOfEo
10-18-2003, 11:41 PM
HTML is so common these days it is hard to make a living as a webdesigner. It can be used as a backup job but if you are new to the profession and you want to use it for all of your income you better manage your cash. I plan on going to into internet applications, because that is what I am interested in. Maybe integrating applications with websites too through soap and xml webservices. I do not know much about this yet but I try to learn all I can because it is extreamly interesting and that is where the cash is at right now.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-18-2003, 11:45 PM
Yeah, us kids are doin' it cheap and taking all the business. I guess instead of offering a free redesign, I should charge, and then donate half of my earnings to my local web design company.
MotherNatrsSon
10-19-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by PunkSktBrdr01
Yeah, us kids are doin' it cheap and taking all the business. I guess instead of offering a free redesign, I should charge, and then donate half of my earnings to my local web design company.
Wow! You sure became an expert designer fast. If I remember correctly it wans't about a month ago you couldn't layout a page in CSS and XHTML. I see you still have the page I laid out for you linked up.
You wouldn't be goin' around telling people you did that now would ya?
http://www.radioactiverabbit.com/dbaudio/
We all get by with a little help now and then........LOL
MNS
James L.
10-19-2003, 05:30 AM
...it's the new school system! :)
PunkSktBrdr01
10-19-2003, 10:33 AM
Thanks again, MotherNatrsSon! It's still a work in progress. Anyway, I'm not an expert. I'm not very good at CSS, although I'm learning a lot. I'm mainly a PHP coder. But this is why kids are able to do web design for very little money. We do it at home, instead of at an actual office, and on the family computer, which we didn't have to pay for. We have no overhead, and we enjoy it, so we don't have to charge a lot. The company that's doing my dad's company website (Avenir Solutions, I think, in Franklin, MA) is charging them $100/hour! No offense, in case any of you work there, but that's an outrageous price! I'm chargin the person whose site MotherNatrsSon helped me fix, for $10/hour, and so far I've spent 15 hours on it (that's the same as what Avenir is spending on my dad's company site). I know I have no formal business experience, but these prices seem ridiculouse for the work being produced. I make my sites totally standards compliant, and I don't use any hacks or workarounds for older browsers. I make sure that every site I make comes out the way I (if it's mine) or my client wants it. I don't know flash, though, so I can't charge nearly as much. The majority of these small businesses don't need any animations, though. And I looked at one of the sites Avenir made, and it's all done in tables, which, I now know are not good at all. Anyway, I need to build up a portfolio so I can either work on my own and take business from professionals, or I can use it to get a job at an actual company, which I want to do. The web design business would be much better off if prices weren't so high, and if sites were standards compliant. How else do we get everyone to use Mozilla!
PeOfEo
10-19-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by PunkSktBrdr01
Yeah, us kids are doin' it cheap and taking all the business. I guess instead of offering a free redesign, I should charge, and then donate half of my earnings to my local web design company. I was talking about as a career after I have a degree....
MotherNatrsSon
10-19-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by PunkSktBrdr01
Thanks again, MotherNatrsSon! It's still a work in progress. Anyway, I'm not an expert. I'm not very good at CSS, although I'm learning a lot. I'm mainly a PHP coder. But this is why kids are able to do web design for very little money. We do it at home, instead of at an actual office, and on the family computer, which we didn't have to pay for. We have no overhead, and we enjoy it, so we don't have to charge a lot. The company that's doing my dad's company website (Avenir Solutions, I think, in Franklin, MA) is charging them $100/hour! No offense, in case any of you work there, but that's an outrageous price! I'm chargin the person whose site MotherNatrsSon helped me fix, for $10/hour, and so far I've spent 15 hours on it (that's the same as what Avenir is spending on my dad's company site). I know I have no formal business experience, but these prices seem ridiculouse for the work being produced. I make my sites totally standards compliant, and I don't use any hacks or workarounds for older browsers. I make sure that every site I make comes out the way I (if it's mine) or my client wants it. I don't know flash, though, so I can't charge nearly as much. The majority of these small businesses don't need any animations, though. And I looked at one of the sites Avenir made, and it's all done in tables, which, I now know are not good at all. Anyway, I need to build up a portfolio so I can either work on my own and take business from professionals, or I can use it to get a job at an actual company, which I want to do. The web design business would be much better off if prices weren't so high, and if sites were standards compliant. How else do we get everyone to use Mozilla!
I am a freelancer. I work from home on my computer but I know what my time is worth. I have a bit more to pay for than a few cd's and maybe some candy.
You may get a "portfolio" out of giving away your aork, but when prospective clients contact the people you did the site for and ask how much you chatged them and they say $10/hr, they are going to want that rate too, even if you do actually have to make a living and not just a nice "weekly" allowance out of it.
In the long run, if you are good at php coding and can get a site up and running, you are cutting your own throat.
The worl you produce should be about quality and how well yu actually service your clients. Setting up somethig they can maintain or maintaining it for them, improving SE rankings, Making additions and changes to the site in a timely manner is what people are really interested in paying for. There are many, many, people that do web pages, but it is the "other" little things that keep clients and make them willing to pay what the service you offer is really worth.
If you code the site, hand it to them and walk away, you are not going to be worth much more than the rate you are currently charging. An Iwill follow up and take any of your clients and get them to pay me $50/hr because of the "extra" service I offer and I can't even code php. I have a couple of people I "sub" that out to when clients need it.
My 2¢
MNS
PunkSktBrdr01
10-19-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by MotherNatrsSon
The worl you produce should be about quality and how well yu actually service your clients. Setting up somethig they can maintain or maintaining it for them, improving SE rankings, Making additions and changes to the site in a timely manner is what people are really interested in paying for. There are many, many, people that do web pages, but it is the "other" little things that keep clients and make them willing to pay what the service you offer is really worth.
If you code the site, hand it to them and walk away, you are not going to be worth much more than the rate you are currently charging. An Iwill follow up and take any of your clients and get them to pay me $50/hr because of the "extra" service I offer and I can't even code php. I have a couple of people I "sub" that out to when clients need it.
That's my whole point, though. I charge what I feel I'm worth. I don't have the experience or knowledge of professional web designers, so I don't charge as much. I can still produce above average sites, though. I'm not very good with graphics or JavaScript, and I don't know Flash, but I work hard and I know where to get help when I need it (here!). I still think the prices charged by most companies are ridiculous, though. I understand that I'm not incredibly skilled, but I do as much as I can.
MotherNatrsSon
10-19-2003, 03:11 PM
Hmmm...What reality are you living in? Pay for some classes and/or college. Pay your rent and utilities, and all the other stuff people have to pay for these days and see how much you think you time is worth then. I bet it will be more than $10/hr. Hell people at McDonalds, with no skills can make that.
MNS
spufi
10-19-2003, 03:52 PM
I just wanted to throw the idea of making a portfolio with stuff you have designed even if it wasn't for a client. If you have some down time, create some template webpages and then put them up on your site. This way, even if you can't list a bunch of sites you have done for other people, you can still display stuff you have done, and people can see it. Plus, if they see a layout you already have done and they like it, it will be a lot easier to finalize it for them than it would be to go through a whole new layout. You will also want to look into doing some mock versions of some sites that you might do for a client. Let's say you do a site for a musican. Well, how would that look? What if somebody wanted a onlne book store? A site for a online magazine? You could sit back and kick around a ton of ideas.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-19-2003, 04:04 PM
Thanks for the idea, spufi! I'll try that out.
Hmmm...What reality are you living in? Pay for some classes and/or college. Pay your rent and utilities, and all the other stuff people have to pay for these days and see how much you think you time is worth then. I bet it will be more than $10/hr. Hell people at McDonalds, with no skills can make that.
I understand that you can (and have to) charge more when you have those expenses, but $100/hour for Avenir seems a bit much. $50/hour seems reasonable, since I know you are talented, but Avenir doesn't seem that great. Unfortunately, my dad's company already signed a contract, so they won't let me do their site. I might get to do all of their updating, though, 'cause Avenir charges $100/hour for that, too. Do you think reasonable payment for one year of updating would be $1250? It's for a new computer, 'cause my family computer is not very good, and my brother always wants to use it.
PeOfEo
10-19-2003, 04:52 PM
Um... what happened to this thread, it was going fine and then it turned into a train wreck and everybody died....
James L.
10-19-2003, 07:30 PM
Hey PeOfEo,
I think the reason it is dying is that we have some people in this discussion post, with very little experience in the real world, critizing the way we do our business.
PunkSktBrdr01:
Dude, I don't know how old you are, but I applaud your efforts to learn the web standards and develop your craft. The truth is though, that a professional web designer IS worth the big bucks.
For example, some of your comments have included that you don't know CSS that well, that you don't use any hacks or work arounds, that you don't know how to work well with graphics or flash, etc, that table layouts are bad, etc.
The truth of the matter, however, is that if we could throw out all of the above ANYONE could do web design professionally.
While table layouts, for example, are considered a "hack", "workaround", against the standards, etc. Given todays current CSS support, however, they are still sometimes a necessary evil.
For example, I just finished an intranet for an educational institution. They were ADAMANT, with no ability to talk them out of it, that the intranet MUST be fully compatible with the version 4 browsers. There were elements to the site, which one of their staff graphic arts people had mocked up in Photoshop, that could ONLY be layed out with tables.
A pain in the ass...YES! However here the client, who was paying top dollar, laid out demands in the request for proposal that made it necessary.
On to the modern era of CSS based layouts, which I love by the way. If you want consistency with the land of current browsers there are many "hacks" that are required for true cross browser/cross platform consistency. The IE 5.x box bug comes to mind, for example. A client doesn't care what your code looks like, but if the pages that they paid good money for look like crap on their aunts computer because she is using a browser with inconsistant CSS support the client will be pissed! The professional designer should be cognizant of this fact, and have already prepared for it. The days of telling clients and people which browser to use to view a site are long gone.
The difference between the professional and the non professional is that the professional takes all of these things into stride, and works with them as par for the course occurances.
Next up, the world of graphics and flash. While I agree that the Flash "craze" is calming down (Thank God), it is still an important skill to have. I should qualify my statement with the fact that I LOVE flash, but the web IS about CONTENT after all...presentation must always be considered secondary to content. I enjoy working with Flash when I am working with an artist, Photographer, etc.
Graphic creation and manipulation, however, is a mandatory skill for the professional web designer. Learn Photoshop, or a similiar app, inside out. Remember, your client could care less what the code or layout technique of your pages looks like. They care about the appearance of the final product. While I can marvel at a wonderful CSS based/XHTML layout, the client will marvel at the clean, professional appearance of the site. Professional graphics are part and parcel of this.
I guess that is about it. I am not slamming you, truth be told I applaud you getting organized at a young age in the industry. just realize that the very skills that you state you don't have are the ones that make the professional what he/she is, and the things that you are critical of are things that the professional takes in stride.
Sorry for the long post, and good luck with your development in the web industry!
PunkSktBrdr01
10-19-2003, 08:10 PM
Thanks for that, James! I appreciate your honesty. The reason I want to build a portfolio is to get hired by an actual company, where I (hopefully) won't need to know all this stuff. I know my limits, and I'm not very good at visual/presentation stuff (though I'm okay with PaintShop Pro). I would much prefer to simply be the "PHP guy", and let others do the (X)HTML/CSS stuff. I don't feel that having to use all of those workarounds is worth it. If anyone is looking for a PHP guy... lol
This thread has gotten a bit off topic, though. My original question was, as the title stated, "is offering free redesign rude?".
Sux0rZh@jc0rz
10-19-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by PeOfEo
Um... what happened to this thread, it was going fine and then it turned into a train wreck and everybody died....
Don't you just hate it when that happens? I think james was the cleanup crew though, and he is a good one at that.
James L.
10-19-2003, 08:52 PM
Punk,
I'll throw out 2 thoughts for you:
1) I personally know at least 2 people who do what you are thinking of full time... i.e. they do the back end coding, but none of the design. They aren't just limited to PHP though, and I wouldn't limit yourself either. They are fluent in PHP, C, C++, ASP, Visual Basic, Cold fusion, Javascript, html, etc.
They started out wanting to do full design, but ended up being contracted basically full time to just code.
2) I have a buddy who is a landscaper. He is also a fantastic painter. He drives around, takes pictures of yards and properties, then makes a small painting of the yard, based on the picture, with the additions he would make if he had been contracted to do the landscaping.
He mails copies of these out to the property owners, and ends up getting work out of maybe 10% of the people he does this with.
This same concept could easily be applied to the web. Take a site you think has "issues", mock up a new home page, and make an image of it. Send this off, with a comment that you are a student looking to build a portfolio by redesigning some sites.
...who knows?
PunkSktBrdr01
10-19-2003, 08:58 PM
Thanks, James! I'll try that!
MotherNatrsSon
10-19-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by PunkSktBrdr01
Thanks for the idea, spufi! I'll try that out.
I understand that you can (and have to) charge more when you have those expenses, but $100/hour for Avenir seems a bit much. $50/hour seems reasonable, since I know you are talented, but Avenir doesn't seem that great. Unfortunately, my dad's company already signed a contract, so they won't let me do their site. I might get to do all of their updating, though, 'cause Avenir charges $100/hour for that, too. Do you think reasonable payment for one year of updating would be $1250? It's for a new computer, 'cause my family computer is not very good, and my brother always wants to use it.
How many people are actually working on the site? Let's say there is one designer that doesnothing but layout and graphics, one that does the coding of the pagees and another that does the server side scripting if any. Now you have a minimum of 3. If it is a company 3 to 10 peope can easily work on a site..
I doo not know the php, but you do. So you and I get together with say, 2 or 3 other people and combined we can make anyone a kick ass site. e all have bills to pay, computers and software to keep current, electricity to run the computers.....$100/hr is a "tiny" bit higher than the "going rate" but not that bad.
I guess I'd have to see the site when they are done with it.
$1250 fr a year is not bad for updates and maintenance. Basically, if you spent an hour a month doing anything to the site, you would be getig $100/hr too. If you are ust changing content and checking links it shuldn't take you that long each month, especially after you look at it for awhile and get familiar with it.
Originally posted by PeOfEo
Um... what happened to this thread, it was going fine and then it turned into a train wreck and everybody died....
You might have died but the thread sure hasn't.
MNS
spufi
10-19-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by James L.
1) I personally know at least 2 people who do what you are thinking of full time... i.e. they do the back end coding, but none of the design. They aren't just limited to PHP though, and I wouldn't limit yourself either. They are fluent in PHP, C, C++, ASP, Visual Basic, Cold fusion, Javascript, html, etc.
They started out wanting to do full design, but ended up being contracted basically full time to just code.
I just want to add a couple situations to back this up. One was a person who started his own web development company. Did everybody know how to do the layout, design, etc. kind of stuff? Nope. There was a team of people and each person had a specialty of what they knew. I believe they have two people who did all of the backend stuff and they had a couple people who would do the front end. That meant that the company could take on multiple clients at a time because each person only had to do their part.
Back a couple of years ago I was part of a group of people doing a site for the State government. There was a team of us and we each had our own specific tasks that we were giving to do. So if Punk wants to be a PHP person then that's fine, but Punk needs to learn more than just PHP because that limits how many different clients Punk can take on.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-19-2003, 09:43 PM
Thanks for all the replies! If you want to check out Avenir's portfolio, go to:
http://www.avesi.com/
My dad's site isn't supposed to be that hard, though, which is why I think the price is outrageous. My dad's company (Metropolitan Removal Co.) does demolition, and their site is only supposed to be eight pages, plus a "glossary" thing that pops up when visitors click on certain words that they might not know. I was able to make a basic design of what they had in mind including the glossary, in about four hours. Of course, that was without the Flash animation that Avenir is supposed to do, but hey, I don't know Flash. I don't think there will be any backend/server-side stuff, so it would only take one or two people about five hours each to do it. This leads me to the conclusion that either a) Avenir is ripping off my dad's company, or b) Avenir's employees take awhile to do stuff.
James L.
10-19-2003, 11:59 PM
or:
C) Your dad will be paying market value.
I charge $40 per hour for graphic design and flash animation, and $100/page for the actual page design.
This is market value for the design costs where I live (Canada). I don't think I am ripping anybody off when I charge this. There are actually companies charging more than I do. I pay my barber $15 per haircut, and it takes him about 15 minutes to do. My mechanic charges $65 per hour to work on my car... service shop rates can go as high as $80 per hour (again, remember these are Canadian dollars).
When you are older, with the skills to become employed in the industry, then you won't want to get paid $10 per hour either. Remember, you are not only paying for the skills, but the experience of the designer.
Now, I am not too sure what the rates are in the states, but that's about what they are here.
...or maybe they are ripping your dad off...I dunno! :)
PunkSktBrdr01
10-20-2003, 12:11 AM
Like you said, James, if you are charging $100/page Canadian (I'll assume that a page takes about an hour), that would be something like $75 U.S. That means that Avenir is chargin $125/hour Canadian, which seems a bit overpriced. I understand you pay for experience, but you need more than experience to build a good site. Someone could claim that they got "experience" from staring at a monitor. Now, I don't have anything against Avenir. I think they are a decent company, but their prices...! If someone has a lot of experience, they should use their experience to get the work done much faster, which allows them to offer a more competetive price, which gets them more work, which is more fun than working on one site for a year. I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but hey, I'm learning!
MotherNatrsSon
10-20-2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by PunkSktBrdr01
Thanks for all the replies! If you want to check out Avenir's portfolio, go to:
http://www.avesi.com/
My dad's site isn't supposed to be that hard, though, which is why I think the price is outrageous. My dad's company (Metropolitan Removal Co.) does demolition, and their site is only supposed to be eight pages, plus a "glossary" thing that pops up when visitors click on certain words that they might not know. I was able to make a basic design of what they had in mind including the glossary, in about four hours. Of course, that was without the Flash animation that Avenir is supposed to do, but hey, I don't know Flash. I don't think there will be any backend/server-side stuff, so it would only take one or two people about five hours each to do it. This leads me to the conclusion that either a) Avenir is ripping off my dad's company, or b) Avenir's employees take awhile to do stuff.
So I goes to the Avenir site you linked to and grabbed a site they did out of there portfolio. Framingham State College.
http://www.framingham.edu/
I look at the code and gasp! They have "part" of a HTML 4.01 transitional doctype but not enough for the validator t recognize it. No character encoding. So I give it the transitional doctype and a character set and :
They have a:hover in there but it broke the pseud class rule:
Note: a:hover MUST come after a:link and a:visited in the CSS definition in order to be effective!!
Note: a:active MUST come after a:hover in the CSS definition in order to be effective!!
If I paid someone $100 per hour to make me a site and this is what they gave me I'd be for wantig a refund and they could keep the site.
My 2¢
I hope your dads page comes out better than that. It might be interesting to check some of the other sites they have done to see if the coding is any different or better.
MNS
PunkSktBrdr01
10-20-2003, 12:33 AM
Wow, thanks for doing all that, MotherNatrsSon! I never even checked the validation. As soon as I saw tables, I knew it wasn't gonna be good, but thanks for helping me prove my point! Like I said before, I may not have experience, but at least I produce standards compliant code.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-20-2003, 12:40 AM
Wow, I just took a look at that site. It's actually kinda funny! They're using images when divs would do the same thing, but smaller filesize. They have nested tables that contain some bizarre JavaScript that appears to be some browser hack. Actually, it's not funny, it's offensive to standards!!!
James L.
10-20-2003, 02:31 AM
See, the table based layout thing doesn't bug me too much... I bet 90% of the web is still laid out with tables, and if this web site was done a year or two ago that was the way most layout was done... for better or for worse. I understand what you are saying about it being offensive too standards, but, by the same token, this was the way of the web for a long time. For people who have a client that requires the page to look the same, cross platform, cross browser, and including the version 4 browsers (although why I don't know) this is still the way that works.
...as an aside, it should be law that people upgrade their browsers at least once a year! But I digress.... :)
THIS, however, is an issue!
The "Javascript" hack you are referring to determines of the browser is NN4.x, and if it is it writes out the menu a bit differently then if it is not NN4 (this is probably an attempt to work around NN4's completely horrific support of CSS).
Turn off Javascript, and reload the page. BOOM! NO MENU!
...considering, depending on who you ask, that 13% of the web does not surf with scripting enabled that leaves ~ 13% of your users who can't access the menu on your homepage!
...oops.
pyro
10-20-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by spufi
So if Punk wants to be a PHP person then that's fine, but Punk needs to learn more than just PHP because that limits how many different clients Punk can take on. Just a comment on that. If one hopes to only do PHP work (or any other server-side language), they'd better hope they know it inside an out, because they won't be able to afford to pass up jobs because they don't have the knowledge required to do it, as one could if they know multiple languages. I guess the flip side would be they would have more time to devote to that particular language, and thus could know it better, but I personally like a bit more diversity.
Robert Wellock
10-20-2003, 11:40 AM
That "Avesi" site is screwed within Opera 7.2x whoever built that site, probally does not do basic browser testing.
Before you start with a retro-fit, you should ask the people in question whether they would be interested.
I don't just go around cold calling entities and saying your site is in dire need of an accessibility retrofit by myself, or you'll probably get sued by some individual.
PunkSktBrdr01
10-20-2003, 03:11 PM
Thanks for the ideas, everyone!
James L.
10-20-2003, 06:17 PM
Hey Robert,
I see your point of view, but I surely can't see how any laws or legal issues have been breached.
If you re-design a page, put a disclaimer on the bottom stating that you are doing this not for commercial purposes, but for the purposes of practicing your craft as a student, and that the only people who will be seeing it are the people who owned the original site... what laws have you broken?
Again, not argumentative, just curious on your point of view.
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