CSS vs HTML

[Corsol]

I am not a web developer, just a frustrated business owner. I am on my 4th complete web re-design and reached my boiling point. My current design cost me approximately $8,000 and it was sold based on the idea of building a good foundation that would allow us to grow into for years to come. I have had no complaints with the site up until now, it has a clean and professional look but needs to be updated with photos, news stories, etc. My current marketing firm has looked at the design and has said it looks like spaghetti programming and it would be much easier to redesign the entire site in HTML. I contacted another web company and they said my site was very professional and they would just build on it. So--- I paid them to build 4 pages, the pages look good but my current marketing guy said they did not use my current site they rebuilt 4 totally new pages! I questioned the company and they said that they understood my concern but if I were to continue with them they would use CSS as the code. Is there any way to weed out the bs without having to enrol in a 4yr web design program?

current site www.prpindustries.com

sample page http://prp.digitalmarketingsolution.com/version1/

[Charles]

Both are pretty bad, I wouldn't use either of them. The second, one, http://prp.digitalmarketingsolution.com/version1/about.htm , is especially bad. Do not use them for any reason. That page is all image, completely hidden from search engines and from Braille and audio browsers and with a huge bandwith overhead.

Here's my quick and dirty two step method for determining if a web page is any good under the hood.1) See if it passes The Validator (http://validator.w3.org) and 2) make certain that it works and works well in Lynx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser)). A designer must be able to do both to be minimally acceptable.

[6StringGeek]

At least the first link validates! Although they did miss the boat in several areas (a lot of unnecessary javascript for example), it (your current site) still looks 10x better than most of the crap out there with regards to coding. The second site has issues as Charles mentioned. I think your current site would be fine with a little clean-up...but it's in much better shape than the second from a programming perspective.

Tell your marketing people to stick to marketing.

PS...the slogan "Custom Corrosion Solution That Work" is not grammatically correct. Easy mistake on their part, but if you end up using their services they should change that.

Also, HTML and CSS work hand-in-hand, and you current page already uses CSS.

[Charles]

I don't hold the unnecessary JavaScript thing against them as much as I do that they are making some XHTML errors that don't show up on the Validator. (Using document.write and commenting out the styles as examples.)

But the really bad thing is that they are using the SPAN elememt to ape the FONT element. The FONT element was done away with for good reason. For the sake of Corso's sanity I won't explain why this is bad but trust me, it's very bad.

[6StringGeek]

I don't hold the unnecessary JavaScript thing against them as much as I do that they are making some XHTML errors that don't show up on the Validator. (Using document.write and commenting out the styles as examples.)

But the really bad thing is that they are using the SPAN elememt to ape the FONT element. The FONT element was done away with for good reason. For the sake of Corso's sanity I won't explain why this is bad but trust me, it's very bad.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong...it has a long way to go...but man it's a lot closer to good than the other one. Not sure why they are using an xhtml dtd either. A competant coder could fix the first one in a day.

I haven't seen an image map in a long time.

[Charles]

Corsol,

It might prove interesting if you would send a link to this thread to each of those designers.

[serjeniuo]

omg, you paid 8000 usd for this? how's your target market my grandma? and I thought that if i take 3000 euro for a website is to much:)). it's sad, very sad .

[Corsol]

Corsol,

It might prove interesting if you would send a link to this thread to each of those designers.

Keep it coming. I will send a link to them. Thanks in advance.

[Corsol]

:confused:Thanks for the comments. So how does the consumer search for a competant designer? I have yet to hear anyone claim that they are average at designing. I weed most of them out based on the look of their work but obviously there is much more value that a good programmer can add behind the scenes.

[6StringGeek]

:confused:Thanks for the comments. So how does the consumer search for a competant designer? I have yet to hear anyone claim that they are average at designing. I weed most of them out based on the look of their work but obviously there is much more value that a good programmer can add behind the scenes.

Check out their portfolio. Go to the sites they designed and run them through the validators:

html: http://validator.w3.org/
css: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

Check their sites out in different browsers.

Ask here...

[Charles]

And view their work on Lynx! That's, perhaps, even more important than valid mark up.

[6StringGeek]

And view their work on Lynx! That's, perhaps, even more important than valid mark up.

True. LOL. I am a validation snob. Accessibility is a very important consideration.

[6StringGeek]

Hey Corsol, with regards to the javascript, just as an experiment, try turning javascript off in your browser (which a certain percentage of folks/system admins do) and refresh your page. In my browser (FF 3.0.6) your top menu disappears, and a text version of it appears at the bottom of your page. The page doesn't break, but the design you liked is gone, and it may be confusing to your visitors, as most people look for navigation towards the top of the page.

These are just some of the quirks you'll need to check when you're evaluating a design company.

[rpgfan3233]

And view their work on Lynx! That's, perhaps, even more important than valid mark up.

Yep. If you do something that is bad HTML, Lynx tends to tell you. :D

[Webitseo]

Oh wow, from an SEO standpoint, your current site is waaaay bad, especially the index page. There are no keywords, no description, and very little text. Some people say keywords are obsolete anyway, but they are actually useful if they match the body text. If you have keywords that have nothing to do with the text, then they don't work. Having text is very important, as web crawlers can't gain any info from images, though alt tags describing the images are useful, but they can't replace content. Content (text about your products/services, as opposed to just images) is very important if you want to get found in searches.
As has already been mentioned, all those uses of <span> are poor markup, as well as the use of <b>,etc. They sort of did a combination of CSS and html. It's not the worst code in the world, but considering that they charged you $8k, it's crap. I'm just a self-taught wannabe designer, and I can spot the errors. If I can, anyone can!
All design should be in CSS. html is pretty much obsolete.
Your site looks good visually, but as everyone has said, has some serious errors. From my standpoint, the SEO problem is a major error.
Good luck!

[Corsol]

Thanks

[Corsol]

Thanks

[Mig]

Wow, $8000 for that?! That's really terrible. It's terrible that they're either deliberately ripping people off and hoping they never realise the site is so bad, or terrible that have no idea how bad they are at their job.

Of course, it's not your fault. I guess the problem is that you are ordering a service from an industry you have no professional knowledge of. It would be the same if I got my car fixed by a mechanic - they could tell me any old crap and I wouldn't know if it's good or bad (luckily my dad is one). When looking for developers, check their previous work and see that it validates (as mentioned already), and maybe have a look at similar sites on the internet to see how they match up. You could also come to forums like this one and ask the opinion of other developers.

Oh, as for the HTML vs CSS issue that you seem to be receiving conflicting advice about, there is no case of 'versus' - they should both be used together. I don't know what your understanding of HTML/CSS is, but HTML must be used to actually determine which elements make up a page, and CSS should be used to govern their layout and style. HTML should not be styled without CSS, and without the HTML, CSS has nothing to work with. So anybody telling you they will use CSS to design the site is a better developer over someone saying they would style everything with HTML. Not using CSS is seriously '90s.