Bring on the flame!

[Icewater]

Ok. I've had it with the web-site at my corporate office. I've been trying to have it updated by a professional for 3 years now, but the CEO doesn't think it's all that important. Well brother, it is.

If I want it done right, I'm gonna have to beg and plead people like you to point me in the right direction. So here we go.

I'm not a total n00b, but don't have much experience with web design. I have outdated programming skills and need to create a web site that sells. I don't mind buying books, software, or learning materials within reason. My mind is made up, so I'm gonna learn.

Where do I start? :confused:

Thanks,

T

[fijit]

Now there's a tough one!!! lol. :D

When I started out I pulled other peoples pages apart to see what made them tick.

[spufi]

Originally posted by fijit
Now there's a tough one!!! lol. :D

When I started out I pulled other peoples pages apart to see what made them tick.

Well, as long as you are stealing from the correct people, then yes. ;)

Here's a list of sites worth checking out.

Know what a Doctype is and why it's important.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/

How to use <meta> tags.
http://www.searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/article.php/2167931

Google's webmaster guide.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/index.html

W3C
http://www.w3.org/

W3C's validator
http://validator.w3.org/

W3schools (not part of W3C) Also note it's a good place to see how stuff works, but their code tends to not be on the valid side so I would validate anything I grabbed from there.
http://www.w3schools.com/

CSS Zen Garden. All examples have the same HTML. The only difference is the external CSS file. Awesome site to steal, I mean learn from. ;)
http://www.csszengarden.com/

Eric Meyer's site. His book ""Eric Meyer on CSS" is SO on my Christmas list.
http://www.meyerweb.com/

Lynx browser tester. See how bad/good your site looks in a text browser.
http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html

[pyro]

I agree with Spufi. If you are going to learn from other source, be sure you learn from people who know what they are doing, or your going to pick up a bad habit for each good thing you learn (or maybe the ration of bad habits to good skills would be higher...;)). How can you tell if a site is worth learning from? That's where Spufi's fifth link comes in, and you'll also want to use that once you get to programming your site.

[spufi]

D'oh, I forgot at least this one link. If you are going to use Flash, check out the link below to make sure you have a valid <object> tag. Even though it says it's for validating with Flash and XHTML, the <embed> tag is pretty much screwed in any DTD.

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/

[Icewater]

Thanks for the advice so far. What type of software do you use to create your pages? I'm guessing it's not all wordpad and IE? What are some programs that will help me learn?

Thanks,

T

[spufi]

Do NOT use Wordpad for creating web pages. Why? It won't create valid code, and the code will be bloated at best. Wordpad is good for the things in was intended for, making web pages isn't one of them. Here's a free text editor you can use.

http://www.chami.com/html-kit/

A couple browsers to check into. Note that if your page looks good in IE and bad in Mozilla, Mozilla is probably displaying it correctly and your code is still messed up. If you just want the browser only version of Mozilla, download Firebird. Mozilla is my default browser because I use it for handling my mail and what not.

http://www.mozilla.org/
http://www.opera.com/

[zyex]

For designing your website, I would advise using Macromedia Fireworks. This package has been designed specifically for the purpose of designing web pages / sites. The optimisation for images exported from Fireworks is second to none.

for building the actual web content, I would advise Macromedia Dreamweaver...its a wysisyg package and is good for building simple websites, although it has many extended features that make it the package to use amongst web designers.

Be aware though, that although some of the features offered by Dreamweaver are supported by many browsers, some are not compliant with W3 standards. Once you have completed your site, go through the code and make any necessary changes in order to ensure that the coding is correct.

Also, these packages have tutorials that will help you on your way, and Macromedia offer excellent support.

[starrwriter]

Originally posted by Icewater
[B]Thanks for the advice so far. What type of software do you use to create your pages? I'm guessing it's not all wordpad and IE? What are some programs that will help me learn?

I recommend Namo WebEditor. It's very easy to use, relatively inexpensive and toggles with one click between WYSIWYG and HTML source so you can visually lay out pages and see the underlying code. You can also draw tables, add javascript rollovers, popup windows, DHTML animations, etc. without writing the complex code.

http://www.namo.com

[Aronya1]

Originally posted by zyex
For designing your website, I would advise using Macromedia Fireworks. This package has been designed specifically for the purpose of designing web pages / sites.
zyex,
I have to take exception to this statement. Fireworks is intended to be a graphics editor. It has the capability to edit images in such a way as to allow them to be exported as a working HTML page, but you really can't do web design with it. At least not easily. I prefer Fireworks to Photoshop hands down, but my web pages are done with Dreamweaver, normally.

My 2cts

[zyex]

i use fireworks for the creation of concepts and layout....photoshop for image editing, and dreamweaver/homesite for creating the actual web pages.

you can design a whole site in fireworks....once the design is complete, you can then use the slice tool to export all the image content individually...

then use dreamweaver for building your design up into a webpage....

i used to use photoshop for design and layout of websites, but fireworks is far superior when it comes to productivity....

[Icewater]

Thanks for the tips. I'm checking out Namo and so far it seems kewl. I'm still DLing Dreamweaver and hope to give it a whirl before making a decision. Although the advertising leads me in favor of the Adobe product (even though it is pretty expensive).

I know how to make generic (static) web pages. I would like to make things with menu's that drop down on a mouse-over, forms that will send me an email when people fill them out, pictures that mvoe, etc... I want a customer to look at the site and think that care was taken and it looks professional.

I assume these tools have some graphical interface for this? or do I need to grab a programming guide?

Thanks again, your input is proving exceptional!

And one more thing (although I'm afraid to mention it). I haven't heard mention of FrontPage, is it the devil?

T

[Aronya1]

Originally posted by Icewater
I haven't heard mention of FrontPage, is it the devil?
In a word; Yes

To be fair, as much as I hate to say this, I think FrontPage has it's place. Just as AOL has it's place. FP is easy to use (OK, that's all I can think of nice to say). The biggest problem with it is that it writes really crappy code. It inserts lots of excess code that is either sloppy or invalid. And it really fights you if you want to remove it manually. Also, it is pretty limited in terms of advanced site design. A FrontPage website is usually pretty easy to spot. Last, but not least, its code is geared for Internet Explorer (guess why?), and sometimes seems specifically designed not to work with other browsers, most notably Netscape. My 2cts.

[PunkSktBrdr01]

I assume these tools have some graphical interface for this? or do I need to grab a programming guide?
Yeah, you'll need to either find a script for what you're looking for or write one yourself. This will require JavaScript. Check these out:

http://dynamicdrive.com

http://javascript.internet.com

[Daniel T]

the best program for developing web pages is 1st Page 2000 get it at www.evrsoft.com/

[pyro]

Originally posted by DanieLTomaS
the best program for developing web pages is 1st Page 2000...What would you use to justify that statement?

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by DanieLTomaS
the best program for developing web pages is 1st Page 2000 get it at www.evrsoft.com/

I would have to disagree, and nominate Notepad for this award instead...:)

[pyro]

Nope, notepad isn't as good as something like HTML-Kit (http://www.chami.com/html-kit/). At bare minimum, use something that will give you line numbers and perhaps syntax highlighting...

[Paul Jr]

So you are saying I should not use Notepad, which I have been doing thus far, and switch to something like HTML-Kit?

[pyro]

I would highly recommend that, yes. I personally use the code view of Dreamweaver, but that is probably a bit overkill. I use it mainly for it's excellent support of PHP (intelliText).

The other nice thing about using something that is built for web programming is, often times, they have the option to highlight invalid tags/attributes. This way, you can know if your pages validate as you type, and you'll probably have fewer errors when you run it through the validator. Not sure if HTML-Kit does this or not...

[Paul Jr]

Hmm, I shall look into this. I have HTML-Kit, and my eye on Dreamweaver...

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by pyro
I would highly recommend that, yes. I personally use the code view of Dreamweaver, but that is probably a bit overkill. I use it mainly for it's excellent support of PHP (intelliText).
Thats why I use it for asp.net :) I am all about that intellitext, helps me find my syntax errors before I test == saves me time

[Daniel T]

i still have to say 1st page

- it isn't a cheater program like dreamweaver or frontpage
- it uses html and has 450+ javascripts built into it

have any of you even tried it?

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by DanieLTomaS
i still have to say 1st page

- it isn't a cheater program like dreamweaver or frontpage
- it uses html and has 450+ javascripts built into it

have any of you even tried it? A cheater program? You mean wysiwyg? Most serious developers do not use those features but rather the intellitext features, they can more accuratly find syntax errors. wysiwyg does not make a good site, code that those will spit up will be static and probably only work for one platform too. So those of us who use dreamweaver here are probably not 'cheating' as you put it. Also if your program comes with tons of premade java scripts, wouldn't that be cheating if say dreamweaver is a cheater program? Since you are saying its cheating not to write the code yourself.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
A cheater program? You mean wysiwyg? Most serious developers do not use those features but rather the intellitext features, they can more accuratly find syntax errors. wysiwyg does not make a good site, code that those will spit up will be static and probably only work for one platform too. So those of us who use dreamweaver here are probably not 'cheating' as you put it. Also if your program comes with tons of premade java scripts, wouldn't that be cheating if say dreamweaver is a cheater program? Since you are saying its cheating not to write the code yourself.

Got'cha there.
But at my level of skill, and what I'm doing, I'd go with Notepad over anything else. I need to find some cheap hosting that supports PHP, because without it...I can't learn PHP. And if I'm not learning PHP, then Notepad's fine for me :)

[Daniel T]

well, technically, i'm not cheating, i dont write javascript. i'm just learning it. but with dreamweaver and programs like it, you don't have to type nething

P.S. I have alwaysed thought the way hotmail sets up its accounts and stuff is pretty cool, but i don't know how it works, does anybody know how i can set up a site with account, but not have cgi access? does this have nething to do with an FTP server?

[spufi]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
Got'cha there.
But at my level of skill, and what I'm doing, I'd go with Notepad over anything else. I need to find some cheap hosting that supports PHP, because without it...I can't learn PHP. And if I'm not learning PHP, then Notepad's fine for me :)

Well Notepad is going even more hardcore than I would. Having line numbers and color coding can save you a ton. It does for me. There are a number of host listed here on this thread that offer PHP for web hosting, so look through what was listed and go from there. I'm looking switching to http://influxhost.net/ within the next couple of days. Not that you have to pick them. You can, however, run PHP off of your own computer and write/test stuff that way. I'm running the Apache 2 server and PHP 4 on my Win2K Pro laptop. I'll be adding MySQL to it shortly.

[James L.]

I have to say that all of the advice is great, but if you want to be great, learn to hand code your html/css. Properly written, validated, html/css code will always be easier to update and leaner than any code created by a wysiwyg editor.

Having used both Photoshop and Fireworks, I far prefer Photoshop myself. The feature set is basically the same and I am comfortable in the environment. When I got into the industry I visited friends who worked in this industry, graphic design, and in multimedia. I saw PS on about 99% of their machines. This is not to knock Fireworks though, it is pretty good too!

Cheers!

[dvdljns]

Use notepad to learn on then move to the other programs. All good code is text saved as html. with notepad you have to learn the code. I have about 30 programs for writing html. Everything from simple freeware to stuff like dreamweaver. I know from going there that when I make a page from scratch with one these programs, I need to open it up and check it myself before loading it to a site. There is no simpler editor I know of than notepad. I beleive a beginner should start with that. Than when he actualy knows the basic code move to an intermediate program. Then when you can write the code in your sleep "Like most of these guys giving you advise here" you can move up to more heavy duty programs. Despite the fact that they say there good for a beginner I have decided most programs designed to write html is best used to save the experianced time. IT does not replace learning the code.
Pull out notepad and learn.:) ;) :D

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by spufi
There are a number of host listed here on this thread that offer PHP for web hosting, so look through what was listed and go from there. I'm looking switching to http://influxhost.net/ within the next couple of days. Not that you have to pick them. You can, however, run PHP off of your own computer and write/test stuff that way. I'm running the Apache 2 server and PHP 4 on my Win2K Pro laptop. I'll be adding MySQL to it shortly.

1) I'm an unemployed 15 year old, so...there wouldn't happen to be any free hosting that supports PHP, would there?

2) I've attempted the whole running PHP off my computer thing but I'm a bit stuck.

[pyro]

1) Yes, though free host really are never as good as leased hosts. http://www.free-php-hosting.com.

2) That doesn't tell us much. If you are looking for help, you'll have to give us a bit more info. What server are you trying to install? What doesn't seem to be working?

[Paul Jr]

I WAS using Abyss With PHP 4.3.3. But I was getting very frustrated, so I figured I'd start with a clean slate and possibly try something else, or get some help.

[pyro]

I had no problems whatsoever when I was running Abyss with PHP 4.3.1. Now I'm running Apache, and it's a bit harder to use/set up, but also works fine. When using Abyss, did you follow their instructions for getting PHP set up?

[Paul Jr]

Uh huh. I followed all the instructions given to me.

[spufi]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
1) I'm an unemployed 15 year old, so...there wouldn't happen to be any free hosting that supports PHP, would there?

2) I've attempted the whole running PHP off my computer thing but I'm a bit stuck.

I don't know of many employed 15 yeard olds. ;) For free PHP web host, there are a number listed in this thread. One of them was http://www.flatface.net/ Since you tried to use PHP on your own computer, what server where you trying to use with it? Did you at least get the server up and running, or are you just stuck on the PHP part of things? I know it took me a couple run throughs before I got it to work on my laptop. If nothing else, you can post in the PHP section of the forums and ask about installing there.

[Paul Jr]

I got the server up and running, but it's like it wasn't processing the PHP, I'm not sure why though.

[dvdljns]

1) I'm an unemployed 15 year old, so...there wouldn't happen to be any free hosting that supports PHP, would there

Here's the one I use. PHP And java seems to work fine.
No ads.!! no hidden coockies loaded on my machine!!
You can run your on ads. You can make money off your web.
It through some people off when they go there and it's in Italian. but they have an english page. I use it for a test site.

http://www.webspace4free.biz/index.php

I am not saying there are not better sites out there but this works for me.
Theres a site out all it does is articles on free hosting sites,but running a search I could not find it. maybe one of these other guys Know.:)

[PeOfEo]

There a free hosts for most major technologies if you shop around, with no ads or anything. http://europe.webmatrixhosting.net is what I use for asp.net for example, its ms sponsored trial hosting. Another php host is www.flatface.net but its kind of hard to get onto their servers I hear.