New forum suggestion [Archive]

Jona

11-03-2003, 05:26 PM

Yeah, we totally need something like this to teach people how to create sites that they are eventually going to have to redesign otherwise; that is, assuming that the law will eventually be to have accessible sites no matter what kind of site it is in not only Europe, but also the United States, Asia, South America, and Australia... And anywhere else in the world.

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-03-2003, 05:33 PM

heh we could just have a link to the w3c, a really big one at the top of the forums. We could black mail people to click on it too ;)

Aronya1

11-03-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
We could black mail people to click on it too ;)
That's helpful...

What are we gonna do with you, man? Hey! Who's turn is it to watch Peo today? ;)

pyro

11-03-2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Aronya1
Who's turn is it to watch Peo today?lol :D

zachzach

11-04-2003, 05:23 PM

we have to watch him,again!I though that ended 3 months ago??
lol

but i think we should have at least a forum on web DESIGN, i mean were getting so into programming,woops, we forgot!Normal Humans DONT view the source to see how hard we worked!

pyro

11-04-2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by zachzach
Normal Humans DONT view the source to see how hard we worked! No, they don't. But, the do see the results of the source code. And that is where the importance of good source code comes in.

zachzach

11-04-2003, 06:09 PM

i was kidding lol!Your always so serious![joking].

PeOfEo

11-04-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Aronya1
That's helpful...

What are we gonna do with you, man? Hey! Who's turn is it to watch Peo today? ;) well bribing them would cost too much, black mailing or even just laying a guilt trip on them would be more economical solutions. We could say something like "If you do not make you page accessable that means you hate disabled people. You don't really hate disabled people do you? To find out how to make your page accessable plase visit the world wide web consrotium (http://w3.org)
paid for by Audio Braille Browser Society of Nebraska

Jona

11-04-2003, 06:30 PM

It's not very accessible to have a "here (http://somewhere.com/)" link... :rolleyes:

Edit: Nebraska...

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-04-2003, 06:31 PM

lol, let me edit the post. I AM A HYPOCRATE SOMETIMES OKAY!!! :D

Aronya1

11-04-2003, 08:12 PM

How about a spelling, punctuation & grammar forum? We could blackmail people there, too! - "If you don't learn the difference between 'to' and 'too,' the cute little bunnie goes on the barbie!"

zachzach

11-04-2003, 08:34 PM

it would have been strange/weird if W3C hadn't named itself "W3C"..i mean its websitw would be www.www.com...how redunden..oh wait im off topic..again...i use "..."s to much, dont I?

Jona

11-04-2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Aronya1
How about a spelling, punctuation & grammar forum? We could blackmail people there, too! - "If you don't learn the difference between 'to' and 'too,' the cute little bunnie goes on the barbie!"

I'd be a millionaire! :D

Let's not get off-topic, guys. We really want this accessibility forum!

[J]ona

Robert Wellock

11-05-2003, 03:16 PM

Ask Pete directly then, I am sure John would be head over-heels if he saw one here...

Come on, it is not the 20th Century any more and I hear many of the people on this forum a just teenagers so it would help them to embrace such technology for the future.

I myself have a disability, so if you think you won't have many disabled visitors think again.

PeOfEo

11-05-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Aronya1
How about a spelling, punctuation & grammar forum? We could blackmail people there, too! - "If you don't learn the difference between 'to' and 'too,' the cute little bunnie goes on the barbie!" Can we just mod these forums and drop in a spell checker lol. I know if I were not lazy I could type up my posts in word, run the spell check, then paste them in here but that is a whole extra step.... I am also too lazy to edit my posts when I have spelling errors usually, unless its spelling and grammer in a way that it makes my post illedgible.

zachzach

11-05-2003, 06:51 PM

Wow we are very not good at staying on ? topic"!' and remmarg and gnilleps is very not unimportent

that illegible.Well for me and about 5 other people on the planet its not.lol

PeOfEo

11-05-2003, 09:35 PM

When its illedgible people cant understand the advice or the question :( .

I just had an idea though. Some sites and forums have a tip of the day, well even the w3 has one in their validator, like a random tip. Maybe if we just had an accessability tip. Because a whole forum devoted to accessability? We talk about it on every forum already, which is good. But If we just put it in one forum the people we need to talk to about accessability will not go there, and will never hear what we have to say. So putting a tip of the day thing at the top of the page somewhere would insure that people see it and maybe they will go there. But its just a thought. Forgive me if this was another instance of mental diarea streaming from my mouth that you had to sit though :D

zachzach

11-05-2003, 09:46 PM

Good Idea!
And we could have like an index of them, and places where you could improve on them.Wow.Ideas really flow when you say something illegible.Thats not a mith, I told you!LOL!

PeOfEo

11-05-2003, 09:48 PM

lol. I have tons of ideas, just usually they are not very good :( :D

zachzach

11-05-2003, 10:09 PM

Peo, your not a moderator, are you?Lol!
Sign up for my site people!Its getiing better(as Monty Python would say,"She turned me into a newt!","A newt?","....well..umm..I got better?!?")!Lol!

pyro

11-05-2003, 10:22 PM

zachzach, you need to keep your posts more on topic, please.

And yes, PeOfeO is a moderator of the ASP section as of today. :)

Aronya1

11-05-2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by pyro
zachzach, you need to keep your posts more on topic, please.

And yes, PeOfeO is a moderator of the ASP section as of today. :)
There goes the neighborhood...

Sorry. I couldn't help myself. :p

PeOfEo

11-05-2003, 10:42 PM

Lol, its not like anyone but me and pete go up there anyway. All you anti ms folks around here. ;)

AdamBrill

11-06-2003, 12:59 PM

I think an accessiblilty forums would only be asking for off-topic threads. You guys can't even keep this one thread on-topic, much less a whole forums. :D Honestly, though, I think there would probably be a lot of arguments, since people get a little "aggressive" about their views(or should I say convictions:p) on the subject. ;)

Aronya1

11-06-2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by AdamBrill
...I think there would probably be a lot of arguments, since people get a little "aggressive" about their views(or should I say convictions:p) on the subject. ;)
I think you're probably right re: the "conflicting opinions" but at least they would be segregated from the other threads. Also, if it didn't work out, the forum could be removed as easily (easier?) as it was created.

Charles

11-16-2003, 09:36 AM

I come to believe that a separate "hiding the source code" forum is in order. That way all of the crack pots could go there and leave the rest of the fora alone. And if all the existing threads on the issue were transfered there then we might be able to put a stop to the repetitive reposting on the subject.

GavinPearce

11-16-2003, 09:58 AM

I attended the BETT show in London for 4 days at the invitation of Macromedia and as you probally no, they are quite hot on their accessibilty.

However speaking aside to a few of the team they all agreed that it is the top lately and how many blind people had they ever seen surfing the net!

My views at this current time are yes it's needed to a certain extent but currently people are going way over the top with 'you have to do this' and 'you have to do that'

If my site was to be made fully accessible as recommended, it would be made black text size 72 on a white background with a hundred extra little tags all over the place for every single type of screen reader and over such devices with lots of little petite tags that wouldn't have been needed, and are not needed still.

Well that's my view, I guess it's lame to be a blind person to my site, but you show me a fully blind person using the net and I'll eat my shoe.

AdamBrill

11-16-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by gavinnet
If my site was to be made fully accessible as recommended, it would be made black text size 72 on a white background with a hundred extra little tags all over the place for every single type of screen reader and over such devices with lots of little petite tags that wouldn't have been needed, and are not needed still.It's not quite that bad. ;) Take a look at www.ryanbrill.com; that has a pretty good balance, I'd say...

Jona

11-16-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Charles
I come to believe that a separate "hiding the source code" forum is in order. That way all of the crack pots could go there and leave the rest of the fora alone. And if all the existing threads on the issue were transfered there then we might be able to put a stop to the repetitive reposting on the subject.

Now there is an idea, my friend. :cool:

[J]ona

soccer362001

11-16-2003, 04:34 PM

PeOfEo

11-16-2003, 09:10 PM

heh but watch us make a forum like that and people would still post crap like that in the general section :P. We would have to get Pyro and Khalid to move all the threads they post. Why not just call the new forum 'security' so all the stupid threads about trojans and wannabe hacking could go there too :D

Jona

11-16-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
heh but watch us make a forum like that and people would still post crap like that in the general section :P. We would have to get Pyro and Khalid to move all the threads they post. Why not just call the new forum 'security' so all the stupid threads about trojans and wannabe hacking could go there too :D

Peo, why do we have a DHTML and JavaScript forum if it's the same thing? :rolleyes: Is that redundant? Why don't we just make the DHTML forum combined with the JavaScript forum while we're at it?

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-16-2003, 09:38 PM

lets toss in vbscript while we are at it. We do not have a vbscript forum now, but still lets roll all the client side stuff together.

Jona

11-16-2003, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
lets toss in vbscript while we are at it. We do not have a vbscript forum now, but still lets roll all the client side stuff together.

VBScript = ASP = ASPX, basically, correct?

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-16-2003, 10:01 PM

vbscript can be used to do asp, but vbscript (*.vbs) is also a client side scripting language. It cannot be used to do asp.net though. VBscript is obviously not as widely used as java script but can do the same kinds of stuff and I believe it is adequitly supported by most browsers to my knowledge.

pyro

11-16-2003, 10:04 PM

VBScript is IE only...

GavinPearce

11-17-2003, 02:30 AM

Sorry for being a little off topic quickly. :(

How come Adam on http://www.ryanbrill.com/ when I go View Source it won't appear?

I've seen other sites doing the same thing but what is it, I've never actually seen any code.

On topic again - I believe Pyro is right about the VB script. The again I don't no any Microsoft designed programming languages, and that's the way it's staying for me. PHP and perl :)

pyro

11-17-2003, 08:28 AM

Must be something with your browser, as I did nothing to try to hide the source on ryanbrill.com. I'm hoping people can learn a thing or two from it, so it is all sitting right there. :)

soccer362001

11-17-2003, 08:59 AM

I have IE 6 and I can't veiw the source either.

pyro

11-17-2003, 09:18 AM

Can you view the source of other pages? If not, it is almost certainly this (http://forums.webdeveloper.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14779#post78188) known IE bug. I was able to view the source fine on IE 6.

Robert Wellock

11-17-2003, 09:33 AM

I could get you contacts of several people I know who are completely blind and use the web; in fact I personally know a whole host of webmasters who have various disabilities for example Robert Tunna: http://www.tunna-resources.co.uk/ it would do some of you good to visit his website.

soccer362001

11-17-2003, 09:47 AM

I finally got to view the source. Microsoft was right the tmp path on my computer was wrong

Aronya1

11-17-2003, 02:24 PM

IE 6. No problem viewing source here.

Jona

11-17-2003, 04:10 PM

It's IE 6!! That's the problem! Actually I didn't even test it in that stupid, low-down, idiotic, bullcrap, non-deserving, widely-used, personally hated browser known as IE. It works in Mozilla FireBird, and that's good enough for me. :)

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-17-2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by pyro
VBScript is IE only... I could have sworn mozilla and opera covered it too :( . Oh well, that is still most of the internet anyway so people will continue to use it and not care about the other browsers and the people who use them.

Jona

11-17-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
I could have sworn mozilla and opera covered it too :( . Oh well, that is still most of the internet anyway so people will continue to use it and not care about the other browsers and the people who use them.

Stay on topic... We're talking about accessibility forum, not something that is IE-only and basically included in the ASP forum (which although VBScript could be client-side it's rarely used and ASP people would know anyway, if anyone did).

Not to mention, we're supposed to be trying to ditch IE for eternity, and promote the use of Mozilla... :D

[J]ona

GavinPearce

11-18-2003, 10:37 AM

My site visitors generally use IE, i wish to please the majority of my site visitors, so I use IE. :-p I don't find much wrong with it other than Microsoft make it, and even then XP and 98 have always worked fine for me.

Robert Wellock

11-18-2003, 11:41 AM

There is a lot wrong with M$ Explorer I don't dislike Micro$oft itself, I dislike the failings of the browser for example it doesn't apply tooltips to the title attribute to abbreviations, etc. which can help with accessibility for various users. Also its font resizing leaves something to be desired, which is also another accessibility issue.

Neither can M$ handle XHTML correctly, but that is another topic.

PeOfEo

11-18-2003, 08:02 PM

Well I was talking about vbscript because i was thinking why not lump all client side scripting together and vbscript is client side. I think vbscript would be awesome if it was supported by other browsers, It is obviously more like vb in syntax, and though I have some experience with java script and am learning java, I am more comfortable with the vb syntax. It is going to be funny when ie7 turns out to read code almost identical to opera and all of the ie only people now get screwed over and have to redo their sites :D.

Jona

11-18-2003, 09:05 PM

Peo! That's the worst news I've had in my life! They're coming out with IE7!!?!?!?!?!?

Okay, so I already knew that, but... You didn't have to mention it... I don't even want to remember. :p lol.

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-18-2003, 09:40 PM

But ie7 will actually handle css like it is supposed to, and it will clean up the object tag etc. Or atleast that is what ms claims and is trying to portray with ie6v2. Maybe it will be tolerable, infact ms might even throw in a popup blocker I hear. That would make it a downgraded version of firebird! :D

Jona

11-18-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
But ie7 will actually handle css like it is supposed to, and it will clean up the object tag etc. Or atleast that is what ms claims and is trying to portray with ie6v2. Maybe it will be tolerable, infact ms might even throw in a popup blocker I hear. That would make it a downgraded version of firebird! :D

Well, that's better than what I've heard it would be. :p I don't know, we'll have to wait and see... But sometimes I don't know if I want to see, the way M$ tends to screw things so much. lol. (And I don't mean "screw" in a bad way, just "messed.")

[J]ona

pyro

11-18-2003, 10:43 PM

Unfortunatly, it will not be standalone... Hopefully someone can hack it to make it so, as I don't particularily like the idea of being forced to buy Longhorn just so I can test in IE7.

Jona

11-18-2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by pyro
Unfortunatly, it will not be standalone... Hopefully someone can hack it to make it so, as I don't particularily like the idea of being forced to buy Longhorn just so I can test in IE7.

That is stupid... I am going to... ugh... someone needs to be shot, that's all there is to it. :p

[J]ona

AdamBrill

11-18-2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Jona
But sometimes I don't know if I want to see, the way M$ tends to screw things so much. lol. (And I don't mean "screw" in a bad way, just "messed.")Where does everyone get the impression that MS screws things up all the time?? I mean, yeah, IE sucked back when it was IE4, but IE6 is not a bad browser. I'm convinced that most of the people that don't like IE is not because they don't like IE, but because they don't like MS...

And as far as other MS products go, they have almost the best of everything that they make(besides Frontpage). Right now, there really is no comparison between Windows and Linux, and I know from experience that their development studio rocks...

I just don't get it... ;)

Jona

11-18-2003, 10:58 PM

Well, I like M$ as a company--nothing against them whatsoever. But... I just get PO'ed every time I go to a site that says, "Works in IE only," or when I have popups, or when stuff doesn't work right 'cause I'm using IE, or because not very many things work right in IE (as far as Web development goes), and it takes more code to get things to work in IE than it does in standards-compliant browsers... And they had to introduce non-W3C recommended JavaScript stuff and all that crud. It frustrates me, because now people are learning to use the wrong kind of code, thanks to M$. That's all.

And their studio does rawk. ;)

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-18-2003, 11:04 PM

You are not being forced to buy longhorn by anymeans. I did not buy xp pro per se (sp?):D , But lets keep that on the down low. Just put it on ur comp and if you cant stand using it put is as a separate partition or something. Longhorn will be sexy though, c'mon it is going to run like xp only a whole lot faster nad p5 should be comeing out about that time too w/ all new architecture so it is going to be mega fast then... atleast thats the word on the street.

AdamBrill

11-18-2003, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Jona
I just get PO'ed every time I go to a site that says, "Works in IE only," or when I have popupsThat is not MS's fault; it is the Web developer's.
Originally posted by Jona
or when stuff doesn't work right 'cause I'm using IE, or because not very many things work right in IE (as far as Web development goes)What?? Almost everything works fine in IE... There are some small bugs in the CSS handling, but, nevertheless, they are small. I fail to see how "not very many things work right in IE"...
Originally posted by Jona
and it takes more code to get things to work in IE than it does in standards-compliant browsers...I've never come across this. If anything, it is different code, but not more code. And for the most part, if you do everything right, there will only be small differences between how IE handles it and how Mozilla/Firebird handles it...

If you'd be talking about NS4, I would agree, but IE6 is really a quite nice browser...

I think you are very close to the "M$" hater category... ;)

Jona

11-18-2003, 11:13 PM

Crap, he got me. :D

Okay, I admit it... I've always liked IE, and still do. Mainly 'cause it loads quickly on my computer. But since I started using Mozilla FireBird I tend to more and more dislike IE... I don't know why, really... My apologies for such behavior... :o

[J]ona

PeOfEo

11-18-2003, 11:16 PM

I just dont like how opera and moz will agree with my css but ie doesnt so I have to go back and do things in round about ways, not exactly hacking but just doing stuff the hard way so Ie6 can handle it. I could not get ie5 and 5.5 working until your brother helped me w/ some hacks. Thank your bro again for me adam :D

AdamBrill

11-18-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Thank your bro again for me adam :D lol, ok. ;)

GavinPearce

11-19-2003, 02:55 AM

As I've said, most people use IE so I make my site mainly with IE in mind. They will still work fine in other borwsers, just without soem of the fancy little touchys I can add in IE.

I don't like the browser built into AOL, well it's ok, I just don't like the AOL bits around it. Netscape 6 was okish. I bared it. I havn't had no probs yet with IE 6.02. Opera uses more processing power dan IE. Makes my slow computer go weeellll slow.

Ummmm, wouldn't it be better if everyopne could use IE? The only time I ever get complaints are from webmasters (never from a general visitor) and they say things like,

why does your site work in IE? You shoudl be anti-IE. I am, you weirdo, u lik IE!

Grow up!

Robert Wellock

11-19-2003, 07:45 AM

M$ fails to handle the <object> correctly which is also another accessibility issue since the object element was available within HTML 4.0 and it isn't just designed for adding plugins contradictory to popular belief.

pyro

11-19-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Robert Wellock
[<object>] isn't just designed for adding plugins contradictory to popular belief. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there was even talk about replacing <img /> with <object>. Not sure where that went/is going, but they were talking about it.

GavinPearce

11-19-2003, 11:54 AM

I don't really care what they add, so long as it supports current HTML coding as well.

PeOfEo

11-19-2003, 04:49 PM

it woudlnt. The applet tag is not used anymore because it was replaced by the object tag. It would not suprise me if the same happened for the image tag and the iframe too. You can use the object tag right now to make all of those, weather ie will handle it correctly or not is another story. But the iv6v2 handles the object tag just like opera.

Robert Wellock

11-20-2003, 09:59 AM

The <object> element is a replaced element and <iframe> was removed in XHTML 1.1 because M$ invented it and it was such an inaccessible idea it was dropped.

Within the HTML 4.0x Technical Recommendations it clearly mentioned that the <object> might replace the <img> much in the same way as XHTML 2.0 discusses using it as the replaced alternative to the image element.

No M$ IE 6.0 does not handle the <object> correctly, let alone any special M$ IE enhanced additions.

GavinPearce

11-20-2003, 12:39 PM

As most people won't have the browser, how am I meant to write a site that works in the new one and the current ones aswell, many people of course won't upgrade, and I for sure ain't surfing the web on a browser that don't support da img tag.

PeOfEo

11-20-2003, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Robert Wellock
The <object> element is a replaced element and <iframe> was removed in XHTML 1.1 because M$ invented it and it was such an inaccessible idea it was dropped.

Within the HTML 4.0x Technical Recommendations it clearly mentioned that the <object> might replace the <img> much in the same way as XHTML 2.0 discusses using it as the replaced alternative to the image element.

No M$ IE 6.0 does not handle the <object> correctly, let alone any special M$ IE enhanced additions. But ms is trying to make ie handle the object tag correctly. MS is aware of their problems and I think they are going to try to make a conscious effort to make a reliable browser, but I am not going to put money on it. I quite like the iframe as apposed to regular frames, they seem to be more accessable. Even though the iframe was a later innovation frames really die on browsers like lynx where as an iframe can be made accessable by putting the default page as a link inside of the tags. That way all of the pages will work. Also the w3 is not the only governing power on the internet I mean the browsers and the w3 make the rules. IE has made many things besides the iframe and so has ns, they have had some innovations of their own back in the day. XHTML dropped the iframe but I thought that the object tag could be used to replace it. I have seen pages with object tags that oepned external docs like an iframe, I have just not seen them with the versitility. I mean they have to put a div with overflow:auto; etc inside of the doc opening in the object just to get it to scroll. How would you open an external document in an object tag for all browsers? I have done it before but it only worked in ie because it handles them differently from the other browsers. Is there one method to have it work on all platforms?