Flashkiller

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

Personally, I love macromedia and flash. I doubt microsoft will get it right on the first try. (or in the case of IE and windows, they never get it right PERIOD.)

but i'm glad macromedia will finally have some competition to make them lower their prices. who wants to pay that much
~!~~!~

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

For those of you who don't read the news, here's a link to what I'm talking about;

http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3104381

[DaveSW]

Unless Microsoft are giving it away I'd stick with Macromedia. Let's think for a second. What was Microsoft's last success in the graphics industry? hmm. Paint? Kodak Imaging? LOL

[Compguy Pete]

It's such a hard issue to discuss!

I knew it would only be a matter of time before MS tried to make something like this. Reason being is that PowerPoint could never be reinvented to compete with flash.

Yet I have seen MS get into the game very late and still pull ahead. Prime examples of IE vs. Netscape; Windows vs. OS/2.

Commenting on the Windows stability and history is well known to us all and like it or not for many of us there are no options. Granted Linux is a great server platform (which I use for all my hosting needs) but I honestly could never see it as a replacement for Windows. Linux will always have a place as an OS unlike OS/2.

So as far as your poll... I will take option #3 which is wait and see, it's to early to tell, Lognhorn is not coming out for some time yet.

[Compguy Pete]

Other dead "FlashKillers"

http://www.flashmagazine.com/html/902.htm

[Robert Wellock]

The W3C SVG profile was supposed to cripple flash for standard static vector images but as we all know it was not given enough support by browser vendors.

[havik]

If I had to take a stance, I'd think like Netscape and apple, Flash (in the worst case) would simply compete and remain "fairly" competitive. We could say, "no, Flash is too standard now" but maybe that's what they said with Netscape and OS/2.

[PeOfEo]

Well microsoft would have a hot product on their hands if they made it so that it could be used instead of powerpoint as a presentation tool. Imagine actual animation capabilites like those of flash that could run full screen like power point in one program. But if they just go for internet use I am not sure how well it will sell, I don't think it would be able to compete with flash. But if they went all in one they could get some serious cash.

[James L.]

Hey all,

I highly doubt that M$ will ever come up with a product that will displace Macromedia and Flash, and here is why:

We all know their products are crap, but their marketing is amazing. Windows OS blows, IE has buggy support at best, though if you code specifically for it (proprietary) you can make great pages.... as long as you only care about them being viewed in IE. Powerpoint and the Office suite in general, are allright.

The thing is this: M$ survives, and thrives, by selling their inferior products to the masses. For the average computer user out there, they don't know, nor would they care, that M$ hasn't had an original invention in years. They don't realize that the easiest way to virus proof their machine is to remove windows. Microsoft products do great business with the masses.

People in the know are different. If browsers weren't free, but had to be purchased, how many of you would buy IE? If IE didn't ship with windows, and the average consumer had to decide which to buy, would M$ still have dominance in the browser markey? I doubt it.

A multimedia professional is an intelligent consumer. The average dude on the street isn't running out to by Flash, the web designers, both amateur and professional, are. For the most part these are people who do their homework before purchasing. I can't see these people giving up a product that continues to improve, and inovate, just to adopt one from a company who makes inferior products and simply copies others ideas (I would love to see a timeline on the Mac OS and windows development. I bet you would consistently see the inovation come out in the Mac OS or the UNIX world first, then M$ puts it out a year later).

I think the consumer of web development tools is smart enough to realize that M$ isn't the way to go.

....now, if we were talking about the average "Joe Schmoo" products, I would tell Macromedia to look out cuz the M$ marketing machine is coming your way!

:)

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

well now the "flashkiller" is shipping and integrating with .net frameworks, meaning that more peeps would actually use it just because it integrates more easily with the .net frameworks(a lot of people actually use the .net frameworks...)

put yeah as a standalone graphics tool, flash will most likely get picked. it's just when it comes to the integrating of it with .netframeworks that it will be chosen. so i guess they really arent the same product, thus making it not quite a flashkiller. it is a DeveloperKiller cause it does do the powerpoint integration...

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by James L.

We all know their products are crap, but their marketing is amazing. Windows OS blows, IE has buggy support at best, though if you code specifically for it (proprietary) you can make great pages.... as long as you only care about them being viewed in IE. Powerpoint and the Office suite in general, are allright. bull, microsoft has had tons of great products, windows is very stable and very user friendly so do not say it blows. Name another operating system that has its functionality. Your bashing of ms products (except for ie, it has its short comeings) is without good reason

The thing is this: M$ survives, and thrives, by selling their inferior products to the masses. For the average computer user out there, they don't know, nor would they care, that M$ hasn't had an original invention in years. They don't realize that the easiest way to virus proof their machine is to remove windows. Microsoft products do great business with the masses.power point mentioned earlier was not original? They have had tons original products.
People in the know are different. If browsers weren't free, but had to be purchased, how many of you would buy IE? If IE didn't ship with windows, and the average consumer had to decide which to buy, would M$ still have dominance in the browser markey? I doubt it.But it does come with windows, it has evolved with windows. This has no relevance to your argument eitherA multimedia professional is an intelligent consumer. The average dude on the street isn't running out to by Flash, the web designers, both amateur and professional, are. For the most part these are people who do their homework before purchasing. I can't see these people giving up a product that continues to improve, and inovate, just to adopt one from a company who makes inferior products and simply copies others ideas (I would love to see a timeline on the Mac OS and windows development. I bet you would consistently see the inovation come out in the Mac OS or the UNIX world first, then M$ puts it out a year later).Not reallyI think the consumer of web development tools is smart enough to realize that M$ isn't the way to go.WHAT? Microsoft has a huge role on the internet what do you think asp is? Asp.net C# w2k3 server w2k server iis advanced server exchange server sql server, the list goes on and on. Windows is a very stable operating system. Linux is nice, but try gaming on it, it is hard. Windows actually runs extreamly fast, look at windows server 2003, it is nt based but it runs extreamly fast. The reason xp and 2000 run a bit slower is because mcirsoft does actually care about compadability, that is all extra code so that their platform can run more products and be more universal. Windows nt based os's are also extreamly stable. The reason you hear about security breaches on windows is because the majority of computer users use it and thats what hackers go after. You hate ms without good reason. It is probably pointless to try and argue with you because you are set in your ways but please do not go ms bashing like this unless you have a more concrete argument. Also saying you have a preference for non ms peoducts is one thing but to say that all ms products blow is a stereo type and I would have to say it is very far from the truth. Front page and ie are the only ms products that I think you could actually say 'blow'

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
WHAT? Microsoft has a huge role on the internetThankfully, as far as the internet goes, M$ does not have nearly as large of a role as Linux, Apache, and other open source alternatives. Long live open source!

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

I know MS is an evil corporate machine, and but peofeo has a point... the reason MS gets capped on is because so many people use it. thus it is a target and more problems are found with it. I personally never had a problem with any MS product i have ever had. Opera runs to slow. it's nice, but slow. IE is much faster!! I haven't tried mozilla yet because i'm to lazy, but i'll do that soon. I have never seen a webpage with problems on it... not one. IE doesn't "go into quirks mode" like u all say. it displays everything i want it to display. and C# is a great language, and so is ASP.net ...

I just can't find a flaw in MS atm other than Frontpage. that thing blows... but then they came out with a new version that is supposedly cleaner.. i love MS's functionality. who cares if they are a monopoly. like pyro said, their's opensource for those who don't wanna work with it. for everyone else there is what is commonplace and works most of the time.

[PeOfEo]

hey ms is a company, that does not make it evil. But remember in companies there is a profit incentive then its dog eat dog. But ms takes care of its supporters. My hosting is 100% free. I get smtp email, unlimited bandwidth, mssql server access (you cant find it free anywhere else, well anywhere else legally, I checked everywhere), global files, code behinds, ftp, etc. I mean the ammenities are that of a premium hosting service and micrsoft paid for it all. My host is a asp.net training ground basically and It has all the features you would have with an ecommerce package or something. Its wonderful. As long as you do not spam email, do not have pornography, and basically do not try to scam them they are pretty open about what you run on the servers too. Ms may have done some seemingly mean things in the past in order to get on top but thats just what companies do. But you have to remember things like the wmh project too.

[James L.]

PeOfEo,

Wow, wholly temper tantrum batman! When you have posted your thoughts on here, I have always respected your opinion. I even stated in a recent post that while I disagreed with you, I completely respected your opinion, and your right to free speech to voice it.

I, on the other hand, apparently am not entitled to the same.

My post was not aimed at you, but a corporation that treats many of its employees like crap (you will probably want proof of that, as apparently whenever I say something bad about Microsoft you take it personally. I have family that work for them, and have for quite some time, so I speak of what I know in this regard).

I think Windows does blow compared to other products, and I stand by my opinion. If you do any serious cross platform work, there is no way you can compare the historic versions of windows to the stability of UNIX based OS's. Talk to any network administrator that has ample experience if you don't believe me.

And, it seems like everytime I turn on my Dell, there is a message telling me to download a new update for my Win XP OS. How many holes and bugs do they have that there are this many updates?

I have several machines in my home and business, with 3 different OS's. I strongly encourage you to spend a complete, unbiased, month on several OS's before you proclaim Windows the king. Mac OS 10.3 puts Windows to shame in many frontiers. If you haven't spent 100's of hours on the different platforms, you don't know. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. The amazing thing about free speech is that we can all voice our opinions. I respect you for doing so... you should try respecting others for doing the same.

On my unix machine and my mac, I don't even have anti-virus software installed. I'm not worried about it. Where do you think graphic GUI came from? The use of the mouse as an interactive tool? Do you think Microsoft invented these? Microsoft takes inovations that others come up with, then repackage and remarket them under their own label. They market them better, and often cheaper. They are allowed to do that under the free market system. Power to them for doing so, but that doesn't mean I don't have my opinion.

You are right about Powerpoint, which I use often at work.

So, I guess that is about it. From my experience, having used PC's since the DOS days, and Macs since 1986, I have developed my own opinions. From my family members who work in the IT field, and for M$ themselves, I have developed my opinions.

From your background, you have developed your opinions. You seem an enthousiastic fan of M$. Great! If we are all adults then surely we should realize that voicing an opinion about a computer product, of al the pathetic little things in the grand scheme of life, is not a personal attack on each other. If Bill Gates wants to take it personally, then I understand. If you do, to the point of attacking me, then that I don't get.

As I said before, I enjoy your posts, and respect your opinions, but I suggest you reread this quote:

"It is probably pointless to try and argue with you because you are set in your ways."

...first of all, you don't know me. If you want to know, I am an educator, a paramedic, and a student in a design program at university. Every day of my life involves learning. Set in my ways I am not!

The above quote could be applied to your strong defense of a company, that to the best of my knowledge neither of us works for or owns. You strenuously voiced your opinion, as did I .

Second of all, why would you consider this arguing? Surely we are adults, and therefore can separate personal attacks from differences of opinion on a computer product?

I hope so, as I meant no disrespect to you.

Cheers!

[PeOfEo]

I take no offence and I was not trying to insult you but when I say argument I mean your stance. I do not like mac in general, they use risc processors and they are crap for gaming and create problems for universiality. Linux is fun but that gets too complicated to use on a day to day basis. Also, I would think that windows updates on a regular basis would be a good thing, it shows that ms is trying to make their products better is how I enterpret it. I just get tired of all the microsoft bashing that goes around here and I do not aggree with everything thing ms has done but to say that microsoft makes inferior producs and their stuff blows seems a little too strong. Do not take me saying thigs like this as disrespect towards you because comments like this are not meant to be, they are simply meant to present another view point so everyone can be exposed to different options and opionions. Atleast thats how I see it when people post things like that after my statements.
Edit: about the mouse thing and the gui, maybe ms did not invent those, but they were good ideas, why reinvent the wheel and come up with something like it of your own? About the gui, they said hey what a sweet idea and figure out their own way of doing it and ran w/ it.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Sux0rZh@jc0rz
I have never seen a webpage with problems on it... not one. IE doesn't "go into quirks mode" like u all say.And how do you know this? To make a statement like that, you would have to be framiliar enough with the HTML or XHTML specifications to know when it is going into quirks, something I highly doubt you know. Trust me, in the absence of a valid DOCTYPE (and in some other situations) IE does indeed go into quirks mode.

Originally posted by Sux0rZh@jc0rz
it displays everything i want it to display.IE can be hacked into doing what one wants in many (most?) cases. I doubt that is what you meant. I'm willing to be you meant that you program (or you use something to generate code) for IE, and thus your pages work in IE, but do not follow W3C standards, and are not compliant with other browsers.

[James L.]

PeOfEo,

Glad you took no offence. I am curious about your stance regarding the Macs though... how much time have you spent on one? Your comments that they use RISC chips is true, but why is this a bad thing? I must say that I would take the IBM PPC chip over the Intel Architecture almost any day of the week.

With regards to the Mac being poor for gaming, you obviously haven't gamed on a Mac in a long time. You can currently get Macs, configured with dual 2.0 GHZ (risc chip, so much faster then Intel chips at the same clock speed) G5 chips, that support 1GHZ FSB with up to 8GB of ram. Top this off with any of the industry leading video cards and a great gaming machine you have! My day to day Mac is a 1.25GHZ G4 with an ATI 9600 video card with 64MB VRAM in it.... it games just fine! The problem with the Mac has been the crappy game ports that were written. Curently, I am playing Medal of Honour, Undying, UT2003, Max Payne, and Splinter cell. The Mac handles the FPS games just fine.

When you say that they create problems with universiality, I must ask... how? They are unix based, which means the meat and potatoes of the OS is open source. Mac OS can open doc files in the finder (desktop). Every program print dialog box has built in fax and save as pdf options in it, so you don't need external software to fax or create pdfs. The finder (desktop) has built in CD and DVD burning, so again, no need for 3rd party software.

Drivers? Not an issue. I have plugged 14 different digital cameras, 3 printers, and 2 scanners into my Mac. I have NEVER used an install cd or downloaded a driver for these devices. The install process is as simple as plugging in the cable.

Want to server side script? OSX has a built in Apache shell. Want Web compatibility? Safari (Apple's browser), and IEMac have been touted as two of the most standards complient browsers ever written. Interestingly enough, the core of MacIE is totally different from the core of the PCIE..... wierd.

Is the Mac OS different from Windows.... yes! And Apple has sold 50 - 60 million Macs with it. I would think that being able to drag and drop (everything), not having to worry about installing 3rd party apps and drivers for the most part, and being able to open 99% of pc files is pretty darn universal! docs are docs, swf/fla is swf/fla, xls, tm, blah blah blah... the file formats are the same.

If you haven't used a Mac in a while, see what it is all about. If you are comfortable in Windows, then that is cool too. I use both so I comment on each from my own experiences.

NOW, having said that, let's talk gaming! My buddy just built a gaming PC that is absolutely stellar! It is the smoothest machine I have used for games, and he did a great job throwing it together. I love playing on it.

Great thoughts, thanks for voicing them.
All the best,

James

EDIT: and, just so we don't completely highjack this thread, I still think Flash rocks and will last!

:P

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

Originally posted by pyro
And how do you know this? To make a statement like that, you would have to be framiliar enough with the HTML or XHTML specifications to know when it is going into quirks, something I highly doubt you know.

I do know most of the specifications. For what I miss, I use w3c validator to catch. (and these forums.)

Trust me, in the absence of a valid DOCTYPE (and in some other situations) IE does indeed go into quirks mode.

This is what I'm talking about. I have never seen IE display a page "wrong" or "messed up". They all work for me.. navigation.. design.. graphics.. content.. What is quirks mode then? an evil thing that causes no damage? IE displays pages that were designed correctly. if they dont work, which i have never seen, then it most likely is an error on the side of the designer. if they put the correct doctype and use semi-valid coding, then it will work.

I'm willing to be you meant that you program (or you use something to generate code) for IE, and thus your pages work in IE, but do not follow W3C standards, and are not compliant with other browsers.

Sadly, I wish I could spend time making webpages, but my life doesn't permit me that luxury. I only have time to make flash layouts and animations and go to forums. I am only 14 and have school, homework, a girlfriend, chores, ect. to worry about. So you are right, my pages probly arent as valid as yours. But I do get them fixed. It just takes me longer.
AND: Do not insult me by saying that i use a WYSIWYG. I dont even have frontpage installed on my windows. (not the shortcuts anyway, it's probly still lying embedded in their somewhere) and I don't use dreamweaver, geocities, ect. I handcode what little code i can find time to do, and check it at w3c validator. Again, your probly right about my lack of experience and I'm not ashamed of that. I have a life to live besides web design, which i enjoy and i know is your job. I'm not saying you have no life. don't take it like that. But my life is different from yours in that i am a kid and you are an adult who makes a living and has more control over what freetime he has.
Sorry but your attempted insult of a 14 year old has failed. And I wish I had more time to actually do webdesign. I think it's great. But all I do is Flash.. So that's my specialty. Wanna see my skill? I made this recently, just a layout; http://xaxei.europe.webmatrixhosting.net/KSFlash.swf

[pyro]

Originally posted by Sux0rZh@jc0rz
I do know most of the specifications.

Ok, if you say so...

What is quirks mode then?

Quirks mode is the mode browsers go into when developers exclude a valid DOCTYPE. Basically, it means that the browser is free to parse and render the HTML as they please. This is why it is very important to set a DOCTYPE on all your pages.

an evil thing that causes no damage?

No one said that the fact that IE goes into quirks mode in the absense of a DOCTYPE is a bad thing. DOCTYPE switching was originally proposed by Todd Fahrner as a way to toggle browers from their slop handing of HTML in the late '90s to their more standard compliant mode. So, I will say that absense of a DOCTYPE is a bad thing...

if they dont work, which i have never seen, then it most likely is an error on the side of the designer.

How about position: fixed? 100% valid CSS2, does not work in IE6, and that's not the only thing that does not work... If we're talking IE 5 or 5.5 there are tons.

Do not insult me by saying that i use a WYSIWYG.

There was no reason to get insulted by anything I said. I did not say that you use a WYSIWYG, I simply threw it out as an option. Take a chill pill, dude.

[PeOfEo]

if you are on the new power mac g5, you have dual 2.0ghz processors. That means its running in 64bit which is crap for gaming. The chips in macs I would have to disaggree on you with the architecture thing, I believe that intel has great arcitecture. Not because of bandwidth but because the chips run so cold. You can up the clock speed on an intel chip, just really jack it up and not really have to worrie about harming it. AMD on the other hand may be able to make things cheaper because of better bandwidth but their chips already have a lower clock and also I think they are flamable because it seems like right when you overclock one they burst into flams. I do not know the overclocking situation on a mac though. You can run virtual pc on a mac in order to run wondows applications but the emulation time bogs it down a whole lot. Also programs lag a lot more at startup because of the emulation lag. I built my own pc so I know a thing or two about upgrading and drivers. It is not that bad and it allows the actual hard ware manufactuters to configure your system to the hard ware. Mac on the other hand builds the systems themselves.I personally do not think this is a good thing because it limits your options. Micrsoft windows nt based operating systems also can run iis and xp pro comes with it and a whole lot of other security features. IIS can run asp php asp.net cgi jsp you name it, you just need to install that on your system. I do not recall saying mac had accessability problems, but I believe I said something along the lines of windows running much slower then w2k3 or something because windows xp has a bunch of extra code that will make accessability and universiality much more friendly. Being open source may have some up points but I think it also might be a security risk sometimes as well. I have used macs before and know people that own them and have had to deal with them. I do not like macs and I do not like macs. Perhaps we should head back to the topic we seem to have been off on a tangent.

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

wow pyro. dude, as you say, i now know one thing that doesnt work in IE. the position: fixed... so mayby a page doesnt look exactly right... but it all displays close enough for me. the content, still there. the navigation, still works. the pictures, still display.

"the internet is bringing people together."
yeah, well not two people are alike. so the internet will never work perfectly. i think IE does a good job of displaying most everything close enough to how it was intended.

[Che]

I know this thread is a little dated, but I couldn't resist such an excellent debate.

Truth is, I think Microsoft is going to have a difficult time competing with Flash not because of design superiority, but rather because Microsoft has done some very strange things in the past.

IE has altered javascript into its own Jscript language. Firefox and Mozilla do not support VBScript because it is solely an IE issue. IE is THE #1 target of most web virus's and security breaches.

We can all agree that the internet is growing and evolving. Trust me, there will be a day where hard drive space will no longer be an issue. Microsoft has made its moves to try and contain internet growth. And when it cannot contain this growth, it buys it and repackages it.

If IE adheres to its desicion to exclude the flash plug in because Macromedia wont bend, then it will lose 95% of online users.

Flash has a name. So does Microsoft, but it's tarnished and cold.

Linux will very soon reach a point where the transition from Microsoft to Linux will be relatively painless. When this day comes, we all should want to jump in.

[Nevermore]

My money's on Flash winning the day, if only because the designers who use flash today are likely to want to stick with it, especially since it integrates with the whole Macromedia suite beautifully. It's true that Microsoft have overtaken established products before, but never something this established - 95% of users have the Flash player, Dreamweaver is the most respected WYSIWYG design tool, and Flash is well developed and well used.