Bad Developers R-A-N-T

[Kuriyama]

Something has really been pissing me off lately, and I was hoping to get some opinions of other developers out there.

Is it just me or are there some really really stupid people developing web applications? I have noticed that most of the questions on these boards can be solved with minimal knowledge and simply taking the time to search for answers using google. I really think that there are way to many "copy and paste" developers out there. People that don't truly understand what is going on and simply get by from the help of people on forums, or taking code snippets from sites. It's really depressing to have to site on an ASP classic board and see people post .NET or JavaScript questions. If you don't even understand what technologies to use, you shouldn't be coding.

I understand everyone starts from somewhere, but it just seems like people do not even want to try to learn the languages anymore.

thoughts?

[Charles]

Well, yes, there are a lot of people out there that can't find something productive to do with their lives and they think that web development is an easy way to get rich. But excluding those many, there is a systematic problem. Web development sits at the intersection of graphic design and engineering. Few people do both well.

[Kuriyama]

I understand your point, but I would say that web development shouldn't be done by one person alone. You need graphic designers and you need engineers/developers.

I'm terrible at graphics/layout. On the rare case that I need to use Photoshop I will figure out how to do things on my own so that I can ask very specific questions. If I have to create a layout, I do the research to find out what standards exist and try to create something myself. I don't go out and copy and paste images from other sites, or steal their layouts.

[Charles]

I should add that there is another part yet to this. A whole industry exists to convince artists that they don't need engineers to build a web page. Dreamweaver and its ilk come to mind but also site like HTML Goodies. And as someone just banned from the JavaScript forum for some unknown reason, I would add this site as well.

[Kuriyama]

I should add that there is another part yet to this. A whole industry exists to convince artists that they don't need engineers to build a web page. Dreamweaver and its ilk come to mind but also site like HTML Goodies. And as someone just banned from the JavaScript forum for some unknown reason, I would add this site as well.

Yes and this is another huge problem with development. Anytime I hear about a tool that can "do it all for you" I instantly start to worry. A few months ago I had to fire a guy that wanted to make pages in Design Mode.

[JunkMale]

One word...

FLASH

I hate it because people who uses it consider themselves web developers!

[Shorts]

During the last round of hiring we did at my office this stood out the most.

Me: "So what would you say your proficiency with CSS?"
Interviewee: "Well, CSS is rarely used so I don't use it."

This was for a developer...

Over all it seems more and more "developers" show up and like you both have mentioned they're more copy\paste abusers without learning what they're copying. Yes, we all started somewhere, I started reading other people's sources, yet every time would try and learn why it worked and what else could be added... Try to be conscious of that when answering questions as well and not actually do the work for the person wishing to learn.

[kiwibrit]

.........I really think that there are way to many "copy and paste" developers out there. People that don't truly understand what is going on and simply get by from the help of people on forums, or taking code snippets from sites.......

I think that's a little harsh. I started coding with Fornt Page, IIRC. I realised that produced rubbish code, and learned Dreamweaver. I realised that code wasn't the best either - but I could learn from forums how to improve it - and it was through forums I developed an appreciation of CSS. When I started php and MySQL it was mostly cut and paste. But then I would try to improve, or develop my own coding - again relying on forums for help. Through forums it dawned on me that there were functions and classes.

Right now I am learning asp.net for a specific site need. I am using a couple of books - but no doubt I will rely heavily on cut and paste to start off with. And no doubt I will irritate someone with my dumb questions - but I hope others won't mind.

I think what irritates me are those college students who would like me to spoon feed their coursework, ot those who expect to now coding instantly - or tell me I don't understand from a position of ignorance.

[KDLA]

The "copy and pasters" and such are usually people who've been designated as a "web" person for a job that has little to do with web design; the company or organization is trying to cut corners by refraining from actually hiring a professional, but still get the job done.

I can't fault people like who end up in those positions: I started out as one of them. And like kiwibrit, I was handed a website and FrontPage and told to maintain it and/or expand it as needed and no one wanted to "wait" until I learned how to do it.

If you want to rant about anyone, rant about the entity hiring Joe Intern without knowing a lick about what their website needs, or expecting Suzy Sales Rep. to do the website as part of the "other duties as assigned."

[skilled1]

The "copy and pasters" and such are usually people who've been designated as a "web" person for a job that has little to do with web design; the company or organization is trying to cut corners by refraining from actually hiring a professional, but still get the job done.

I can't fault people like who end up in those positions: I started out as one of them. And like kiwibrit, I was handed a website and FrontPage and told to maintain it and/or expand it as needed and no one wanted to "wait" until I learned how to do it.

If you want to rant about anyone, rant about the entity hiring Joe Intern without knowing a lick about what their website needs, or expecting Suzy Sales Rep. to do the website as part of the "other duties as assigned."


+1

Biggest problem on the web right there.

[Yelgnidroc]

It's all set to get a lot worse unfortunately with many hosting companies offering a tool to "design your website within minutes".

This then gives the perception to company bosses that website design is just a few minutes work - and expect their tailor made CMS / shop / stock control system etc etc to only cost a few peanuts. When it costs more they then try and reduce the cost by looking at anyone who might have a bit of computer knowledge to be their "webmaster".

Guess where this webmaster goes for help!!!!

[Stephen Philbin]

I think that's a little harsh.

I think Kuriyama meant people that just copy and paste without any intention of ever making an attempt to understand the code they wield.

[JavaServlet]

I see many developers copy and paste something in an application and get into trouble when something breaks due to their "copy and paste". We should add another word to the copy and paste phrase and say: copy, paste and comprehend.

[Shorts]

I'll second that suggestion JavaServlet. As long as the end user is learning there are no personal complaints with people copying any of my code (unless it's closed source for my job).

[Irongleet]

One word...

FLASH

I hate it because people who uses it consider themselves web developers!

That's pretty harsh. Sure, flash *can* be just about code free, but ActionScript3, Air, Flex (soon to be Flash Builder) have changed that -- high level ActionScript 3 coding is just as challenging and deserves the same respect as Java, javascript, or php development.

Just my two cents... but I think I agree with the essence of what you;'re saying, a couple months experience with flash doesn't make a developer.

IronGleet

[multimediocrity]

Well of course there are people out there that do not completely know what they're doing who are developing web apps and such. That's part of the market.

As a tool becomes easier, cheaper, and more accessible, it exits the professional phase and enters the consumer phase. Before, the applications were developed only by professionals, as they usually required extensive knowledge and training. Nowadays, the applications can be created by people who do not entirely understand the process. This is good in the sense that people can do something without much effort, but yes, it's also bad that the product created is sub-par. However, this still gives the knowledgeable developers the competitive advantage.

It's interesting how this works. Now that development is easier, creators can focus more on the practicality and usability instead of putting so much effort in the foundation.

[multimediocrity]

It seems that, with the development of software applications like FrontPage and Dreamweaver, many are making websites without an understanding of how they work, or the capability or knowledge of proper design.

[JunkMale]

It seems that, with the development of software applications like FrontPage and Dreamweaver, many are making websites without an understanding of how they work, or the capability or knowledge of proper design.

You forgot FLASH which is an abomination in itself and No1 on my ban list.

[multimediocrity]

You forgot FLASH which is an abomination in itself and No1 on my ban list.

I despise Flash, but what bothers me even more the people who insist on using it. Flash is a good tool, but not for the design and development of web pages. Maybe Flash is an ideal element for certain page elements, but anything that can be done with JavaScript should be done with JavaScript.

I want to see someone make a website using C++ or something. (To view this website, download and install it on your computer.) That would trump Flash.

[svidgen]

... I have never asked a stupid question ... ever.

[Kuriyama]

... I have never asked a stupid question ... ever.

Stupid questions are defined on what position you where hired for ;). Stupid questions get you demoted or fired. :)

[JunkMale]

Stupid questions are defined on what position you where hired for ;). Stupid questions get you demoted or fired. :)

Yep, that is true. To go off at a tangent for a second or so... A friend who worked for the GPO as it was back then before it became British Telecom, was working in an exchange doing a refit.

Along comes the district engineer for that region with their new graduate university expert on telecommunications to get a look at her new job.

When the district engineer introduced the new employee who was to begin a supervisory / management role she had a puzzled expression on her face.

The district engineer chuffed with his new employee was proud to announce that she had studied telecommunications and had a first.

My friend asked her what the problem was as she still had a puzzled look on her face. She replied, "I don't understand" to which he replied "Sorry, what don't you understand" and she replied "Where do the voices go?" he didn't understand what she meant himself so he asked "What do you mean where do the voices go" and she replied ".. the holes, theirs no holes so how do the voices travel down the wires..."

My friend and his two co-workers were creased up with laughter as it was really the dumbest thing they had herd. It turned out that the woman had studied telecommunications alright but for a different era... Needless to say that she was fired that day.

[opifex]

We can blame all this on Grace Hopper! If she hadn't developed an "easy way" to talk to these machines there would be a lot fewer "developers" running around.

"But Grace, then anyone will be able to write programs!"
... or at least attempt to do so!

Seriously, I think the vast majority of problems do come from Dreamweaver and friends and the advent of javascript and other programing language frameworks. Folks attempt to use these things without ANY background in coding and when things go sour... they don't have a clue. I tend to vary in the way I treat the miscreants... those who really want to learn get help, those who want someone to do the code for them and wish to remain idiots are shunned.

[svidgen]

Wait. Why are we assuming that only people with jobs can ask [stupid] questions?

[Shorts]

Wait. Why are we assuming that only people with jobs can ask [stupid] questions?
Seems not! I kid I kid. Seriously though wouldn't think so, although the only time I hear really stupid questions is when I'm at work.

That's more to do with one of my coworkers though. Didn't even know what continent we lived on or what country Hawaii was a part of. If one isn't aware I live and work in USA... Oh wait, no she did know what continent we lived on, she said "Northern Hemisphere" which surprised she at least knew which hemisphere we were on... She's marketing though.

[Freejack]

Part of the difference is the advent of the 'net as well. Back when I started learning to program (1980ish), all I had were the books from the computer (Color Computer and the two learning Basic books). From there I learned IBM Basic by typing in programs from the magazines and fixing them.

Once I had a grounding in programming (even though it was basic), I had a basis for figuring out the answer. I learned C by reading the "Hogan Programming C" book and applying it to TurboC and Microsoft C. About then was when I hit the BBSs and was able to answer questions for others.

With the 'net and forums, it's easier to just to ask someone than figure it out.

I still do things the old fashioned way. I tried a bunch of different things to get my Javascript thing working, then tried looking in my books (both Safari and my own books) then even a google but no results (maybe my googlefoo isn't as good as it should be). So I posted the question here. But I'm satisfied that I did look in all the places I think I should have looked first.

Carl