Web Design Facts and Stats

[jlaw43035]

I'm working with a client to write an article about 'employment trends' for Web designers and developers since the 'bust'. Do any of you want to share your personal experiences? Has outsourcing affected you?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated - the intent is to share information beyond general (and impersonal) statistics. Thanks

[starrwriter]

Originally posted by jlaw43035
I'm working with a client to write an article about 'employment trends' for Web designers and developers since the 'bust'. Do any of you want to share your personal experiences? Has outsourcing affected you?

I get a fraction of the work I used to get before 2000. And outsourcing to countries like India has aced me out of many jobs. Looks like I got into the wrong business. Thank God I also wrote 3 software programs and 3 fiction books.

[ajs]

What is this 'bust' thing with webdevelopers about? Is it international labor law related?
Aaron

[starrwriter]

Originally posted by ajs
What is this 'bust' thing with webdevelopers about? Is it international labor law related?
Aaron

Were you living in a cave in 2000? Investors bailed out of the web en masse that year, taking billions with them. It is commonly referred to as the dot.com collapse.

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

seems to me the web still works.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Sux0rZh@jc0rz
seems to me the web still works. Yes, still works, but people aren't throwing the gobs of money at web developers like they were prior to that...

[DaveSW]

I reckon there are other factors involved too. Like a lot more people with the same skills... Far too many little kids doing the same thing as pro web designers for next to nothing...

[ajs]

Oh Yah, Duh, I should of put two and two together? The Dotcom crash.

[ajs]

Well, it's just like any business. A customer will usually go with the best bargain over anything. Although, time and time again, you get what you pay for, and people will still buy the cheap stuff or pay the more inexpensive webdesigner.

The bottom line is that there are more and more people that can do webdesigning, thus there is more of a competive working price and lost wages for all webdesigners.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by DaveSW
...Far too many little kids doing the same thing as pro web designers for next to nothing...

I suppose that it could be at all possible for me, at the ripe ol' age of 15, to fall in that category?

[pyro]

Originally posted by DaveSW
Far too many little kids doing the same thing as pro web designers for next to nothing... Actually, it's more what seems to be the same thing. It is quite obvious when a professional has designed the site, and when a kid has, though. ;)

I do agree, though. When the business in need of a web site compairs a professional's price with that of XYZ-Dude Design (the kid...;)) they tend to like the kids prices better... That is, until their site does not work, or they need something more advanced than throwing some images on a page, and the kid can't do it. :rolleyes:

[DaveSW]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
I suppose that it could be at all possible for me, at the ripe ol' age of 15, to fall in that category?

I was too not so long ago. I just put my prices up... :o

[ColdSteel]

So, how are those (including myself) that are younger supposed to get more experience...not in a bad way, but we couldn't get anything if we charged what I proffessional charged....I mean, are you saying, in a since, that "Kids" are taking the jobs from the Pro's? I mean I never try to tell people that I am an expert...just trying to get better....So, the more of us younger folks that get into this field at a younger age, the worse for those actually in the business?

[DaveSW]

Technically yes. The 'kids' (note the inverted commas) are spoiling their future market. You have to think that if you want to make a living as an adult in that industry, one day you'll be competing with a bunch of kids... And some of them are PDG. It's probably the first time 'kids' have ever been able to compete.

[AnacondaAndy]

....I guess all us "kids"(at 15 years old anybody should have stoped acting like a kid) that are any good will just have to raise our prices a bit;)

[AnacondaAndy]

....That is, until their site does not work, or they need something more advanced than throwing some images on a page, and the kid can't do it.

....I think that some "kids" can put together a advanced site that works(not me)...but people like ColdSteel can...

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

Uhm. Yeah. I suck and I admit that.. but if I did charge for a website I'd use all standard code(I learned EVERYTHING from www.w3schools.com... which is pretty much correct. so i haven't learned any invalid code. i only use the good stuff=P.) and i run through validators.. use doctypes.. (correct ones. not the ones that point to a doctype. not the ones that point to a source for the doctype that isnt on my machine. the ones that point to the correct doctype with the correct and full address for the source at w3c's website.) and i use CSS + Span's + Div's. And i dont know javascript.. so i cant fudge it up with crap like that :D and i am VERY good at flash, so if the person wanted some flash, they'd get it.(shut up... 97% of people have it installed.. if the client wants it, he gets it.) but yeah.. it would take me forever cause i'm not as experienced and thus I never charge by the hour. I charge per page / per image in photoshop / for layout / for flash, ect.

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

BTW: yeah im 14.

[AnacondaAndy]

I see what you mean...BTW I'm 15

[toicontien]

The question that comes to my mind is, why do 'kids' have to thrust themselves into the real market to gain experience? Why not learn that in college? Oh yeah. I'm a senior at Central Michigan University in the IT program and nobody there has ever heard of standards compliant design, most of the CSS they teach is 1998-ish, the HTML is circa 1995 and the javascript is mostly Internet Explorer 5.0 for the PC.

The biggest reason is that I haven't heard of any educational institutions that cover all facets of web design:

- Graphics/Multimedia
- Page layout
- Navigation
- Aesthetics
- Web standards for CSS, HTML and JavaScript
- Accessibility
- Server-side scripting
- e-commerce
- Security
- database management

The IT program at Central is good on the server side scripting and database management, but covers nothing else :mad:

So the kids have no where to go to learn from the pros. Kids and pros are too busy competing against each other. Kids should be in school (I still kind of consider myself a 'kid' because I'm still in college) and the pros should be doing the professional work and teaching the kids so they too can become pros!

Ready for the cliche?

The kids are our future (cringe)

I know. It's an awfull cliche :D

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

uhg... I will always call myself a kid. I'm to afraid of my mortality to do otherwise. i can't imagine myself being 30. (heaven hope they find the fountain of youth before i hit 40)
I'm already mature mentally. luckily i was gifted where it comes to my mentality and i grew up with my mom so i am very respectful of women and adults. I don't wanna get old cause it doesnt mean maturing to me. it means just getting old and having life be more difficult where younger people will do things twice as fast with half the effort... i wouldnt care if there was nothing we could do about it, but human's could live forever if we just stopped having sex. cause they've done it with almost every animal. they make the animal wait longer b4 mating and then the kids live longer and they make the kids wait longer, then their kids wait longer, and eventually you end up with fruit flies that live for 98 days where normally they live for only 24 hours. now im sure with genetics, they could skip the whole generations thing and go straight for the endless life.(yes.. childhood lasts longer too as a result) ANYWAYS... after that nice long rant... I'd just like to say you adults are right to yell at us. we suck and you know it. you all have more experience and most likely actually need this business. we just do it for kicks instead of working at mcdonalds cause we're lazy. so feel free to yell at us.

[ColdSteel]

Yeah, keep yelling at us...I mean it...good advice from the pro's is what we need...we are not NEARLY as good as the pro's out there...and I hope that none of us younger developers get a sense of pride in things that the pro's do every day....My advice is to make friends with a pro in the business and in a sense be a "protege"...hey, I did it, and it works for me...it's not like I'm taking from his business...and he helps me a TON! So, my advice to younger webdever's out there (myself included) is to learn, and don't get pridefull in any of the field, because you're just going to get smacked right back down by the people that DO know how to do things...and like said earlier, It's good to get yelled at and reprimanded at once in a while, kind of puts you in your place, hehe....

[ColdSteel]

BYW, if some can't figure out how old a highschool freshman is...I am 14...hehe...

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

well, most know how old a highschool freshman is(14-15) but we were unsure as to whether you had failed a few grades.. mayby you were 16, or near 17?? how could we know? BAHAHAA. just playing. :D

[ColdSteel]

Hehe...yeah, I didn't miss any grades...I was giving my age for the benefit of those that did miss a few....hehe....