Mcchan87
05-05-2010, 02:55 PM
is it possible to be both a web developer and designer? Is it extremely stressful and not recommended?
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NogDog
05-05-2010, 08:59 PM
It depends on your talent, skills, and inclination. If you are good at both, then you don't have to worry about coordinating with someone else if you choose to do both. But if you are weak at one, you might be able to provide better value to clients by specializing in your strong suit, and perhaps finding one or more people who are strong in the other with which you can partner or sub-contract.
Jarrod1937
05-05-2010, 10:20 PM
If you design originally and practice you can generally get good at programming... Yet i've seen programmers who practice and practice and yet fail at design. I do 3d modeling for video games in my spare time and find that this even carries over into that field as well. You'll get 3d artists who manage to transition well into the programming aspect, yet most programmers struggle with the art side and produce whats commonly called "programmer art". Though in rare cases i see some spectacular artwork coming out of a programmer, but the question is, were they a designer first?
Its a strange thing to say, but it seems that those with an inclination toward design at first tend to be able to transition into the programming area. However, maybe because of the programmers inclination toward structure, they tend to produce very derivative and plain design elements as well as lack the eye for what proper design is.
But, the world is also not so black and white, if you're one or the other, might as well give it a try, because you never know :)
Its a strange thing to say, but it seems that those with an inclination toward design at first tend to be able to transition into the programming area. However, maybe because of the programmers inclination toward structure, they tend to produce very derivative and plain design elements as well as lack the eye for what proper design is.
But, the world is also not so black and white, if you're one or the other, might as well give it a try, because you never know :)
sohguanh
05-06-2010, 02:40 AM
is it possible to be both a web developer and designer? Is it extremely stressful and not recommended?
Let me ask you a question. Are you going to enter the IT industry ? If not yet, let me say another fact which have often been hidden from a lot of IT entrees :p
Depending on the industry and your country, there is a taboo word called "maintenance". And it is not maintaining your own code but code left behind by others. If the code left behind is great, no complaints. But if the code left behind is hehehehe..... you may find yourself spending more time maintaining than develop from scratch.
Organization don't like to re-invent the wheel or want to justify their earlier investment. They will insist you do the maintenance for the code left behind by others than create new ones. This is despite the fact the man hours will be longer for maintenance than create new ones.
In my 12 years of programming career, close to 80% of the time is doing maintenance of ppl code or the so called sh1t and faeces left behind by mediocre programmers. For talented programmers code, you can take the chance to learn from their coding skills and design.
And to say talented programmers code are far and in-between whereas mediocre programmers code are abundant. Organizations should value programmers who do maintenance as they can clean up mess left behind as compared to programmers who only know how to create new program but has zero maintenance skill-set.
Let me ask you a question. Are you going to enter the IT industry ? If not yet, let me say another fact which have often been hidden from a lot of IT entrees :p
Depending on the industry and your country, there is a taboo word called "maintenance". And it is not maintaining your own code but code left behind by others. If the code left behind is great, no complaints. But if the code left behind is hehehehe..... you may find yourself spending more time maintaining than develop from scratch.
Organization don't like to re-invent the wheel or want to justify their earlier investment. They will insist you do the maintenance for the code left behind by others than create new ones. This is despite the fact the man hours will be longer for maintenance than create new ones.
In my 12 years of programming career, close to 80% of the time is doing maintenance of ppl code or the so called sh1t and faeces left behind by mediocre programmers. For talented programmers code, you can take the chance to learn from their coding skills and design.
And to say talented programmers code are far and in-between whereas mediocre programmers code are abundant. Organizations should value programmers who do maintenance as they can clean up mess left behind as compared to programmers who only know how to create new program but has zero maintenance skill-set.
Declan1991
05-06-2010, 02:23 PM
Personally, I'm not interested in web-design whatsoever. I find the development interesting and rewarding, but as Jarrod said, my designs are plain and practical, not works of art. I also agree with him, designers can learn to be good programmers, good enough to be good web developers anyway, but it's a little harder to go the other way.
So what I would ask you, is what way are you coming to web development, and what interests you?
So what I would ask you, is what way are you coming to web development, and what interests you?
Mcchan87
05-06-2010, 08:40 PM
personally I like to code websites and I've considered myself an artist yet never done any graphic design work yet. I would like to, to make more money and have more fun but I'm not sure how hard it would be to do both.
midouglas
05-10-2010, 06:10 PM
I'm finding it difficult, being a designer and only being able to program at a novice level on flash is a pain.
Sunny G
05-12-2010, 09:25 AM
... Is it extremely stressful and not recommended?One or the other will drive you mad. Both together will tear your soul apart. Be an artist instead.
svidgen
05-12-2010, 09:57 AM
What's wrong with simplistic design? Google uses very simple designs ... they seem pretty successful.
Jarrod1937
05-12-2010, 10:00 AM
What's wrong with simplistic design? Google uses very simple designs ... they seem pretty successful.
There's a big difference between a "plain" design and a "simplistic/minimalist" design.
There's a big difference between a "plain" design and a "simplistic/minimalist" design.
svidgen
05-12-2010, 10:09 AM
There's a big difference between a "plain" design and a "simplistic/minimalist" design.
Oh, I see. What's the difference?
Oh, I see. What's the difference?
Jarrod1937
05-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Oh, I see. What's the difference?
Plain design can be very structured, very plain as far as the color choices and general design elements that are included goes. However, with a minimalist design you're essentially taking a complete design and compacting it. This generally allows you much more freedom than a plain design, allowing more freedom in design element placement and color scheme.
Plain equals plain in the design in its entirety, while minimalist essentially means a design based on the minimal amount of elements needed to convey your message, which doesn't necessarily restrict the actual design itself.
Plain design can be very structured, very plain as far as the color choices and general design elements that are included goes. However, with a minimalist design you're essentially taking a complete design and compacting it. This generally allows you much more freedom than a plain design, allowing more freedom in design element placement and color scheme.
Plain equals plain in the design in its entirety, while minimalist essentially means a design based on the minimal amount of elements needed to convey your message, which doesn't necessarily restrict the actual design itself.
svidgen
05-12-2010, 10:28 AM
Your definitions seem in discord with ... things. And, I doubt Google took a design and compacted it. So, by your definitions, I'd have to say that Google's applications use a plain design. :p
... And as I already stated, Google seems pretty successful.
So let me rephrase: What's wrong with a plain design?
And if we could, let's focus on the meaning of what I said this time and not the word I used to say it!
... And as I already stated, Google seems pretty successful.
So let me rephrase: What's wrong with a plain design?
And if we could, let's focus on the meaning of what I said this time and not the word I used to say it!
Jarrod1937
05-12-2010, 02:11 PM
Your definitions seem in discord with ... things. And, I doubt Google took a design and compacted it. So, by your definitions, I'd have to say that Google's applications use a plain design. :p
... And as I already stated, Google seems pretty successful.
So let me rephrase: What's wrong with a plain design?
And if we could, let's focus on the meaning of what I said this time and not the word I used to say it!
I'm using compacting in a designer sense. Compacting can mean that the designer has an overall design goal which they develop through a wireframe model and then "compact" it by discarding any actual design element that doesn't necessarily need to be there. Google's design is most definitely a minimalist one.
... And as I already stated, Google seems pretty successful.
So let me rephrase: What's wrong with a plain design?
And if we could, let's focus on the meaning of what I said this time and not the word I used to say it!
I'm using compacting in a designer sense. Compacting can mean that the designer has an overall design goal which they develop through a wireframe model and then "compact" it by discarding any actual design element that doesn't necessarily need to be there. Google's design is most definitely a minimalist one.
svidgen
05-12-2010, 02:15 PM
I'm still not seeing the distinction between that and a "plain" design. Sorry for my ... dumbness? And, are you suggesting that Google starts designing with a more filled out wireframe and then removes elements? They don't start with simple wireframe and then apply their style?
svidgen
05-12-2010, 02:27 PM
ADDENDUM: I think the need to delve into the semantics takes things a little off-topic here. It was noted that a developer delving into design would produce relatively plain designs. To me, that means that the developer isn't going to spend hours or days crafting graphics. The site will have simple styles and images--not a lack of style and image.
And to that my response was is that so bad? A developer delving into design produces sites that look like Google's sites. And that seems to have worked out quite well. So, whether you disagree with the terminology I used is entirely irrelevant. Google is the prototype of developers who dabble into design.
Call it plain, simple, minimalist, or even Martian or <insert made up word> if you like. It is what it is! ... Is it not?
And to that my response was is that so bad? A developer delving into design produces sites that look like Google's sites. And that seems to have worked out quite well. So, whether you disagree with the terminology I used is entirely irrelevant. Google is the prototype of developers who dabble into design.
Call it plain, simple, minimalist, or even Martian or <insert made up word> if you like. It is what it is! ... Is it not?
Jarrod1937
05-12-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm still not seeing the distinction between that and a "plain" design. Sorry for my ... dumbness? And, are you suggesting that Google starts designing with a more filled out wireframe and then removes elements? They don't start with simple wireframe and then apply their style?
Haha, you're missing the point slightly. A plain design is one that is plain in both its structure (aka very ridged) and its color pallete. That is a large difference from a minimalist design which is simply a basic design only from its amount of design elements, whereas the designer has free reign over the color pallete (can go crazy has they want with it) as well as less restrictions on the actual structure (you can be minimalist but have some crazy layouts). As for the wireframe and google, i have no idea how google does it! ;) The wireframe is just my particular process for which i go through to create a minimalist design. I start with a complex layout, and slowly start moving elements, massaging them into other areas, throwout whole element areas altogether... But just like with art in general, there is no single defined process through which one must go. However, the end results are the same.
If you look at google, they have a very clean, yet not 100% structured layout and varied color choices. A true plain design would have no more than two colors (generalizing here) and the entire design is then based off of hues of them, and the structure would be more stringent like a strict table layout. Though of course you can still have a plain design without these restrictions, this is just the most basic example. Some people produce the plainest designs i've seen while throwing everything and the kitchen sink into it.
The original point i was making to your comment, "What's wrong with simplistic design?" is that there is a large difference between someone inexperienced in design who produces plain designs versus a true designer who is intentionally making their design with a minimalist paradigm.
Haha, you're missing the point slightly. A plain design is one that is plain in both its structure (aka very ridged) and its color pallete. That is a large difference from a minimalist design which is simply a basic design only from its amount of design elements, whereas the designer has free reign over the color pallete (can go crazy has they want with it) as well as less restrictions on the actual structure (you can be minimalist but have some crazy layouts). As for the wireframe and google, i have no idea how google does it! ;) The wireframe is just my particular process for which i go through to create a minimalist design. I start with a complex layout, and slowly start moving elements, massaging them into other areas, throwout whole element areas altogether... But just like with art in general, there is no single defined process through which one must go. However, the end results are the same.
If you look at google, they have a very clean, yet not 100% structured layout and varied color choices. A true plain design would have no more than two colors (generalizing here) and the entire design is then based off of hues of them, and the structure would be more stringent like a strict table layout. Though of course you can still have a plain design without these restrictions, this is just the most basic example. Some people produce the plainest designs i've seen while throwing everything and the kitchen sink into it.
The original point i was making to your comment, "What's wrong with simplistic design?" is that there is a large difference between someone inexperienced in design who produces plain designs versus a true designer who is intentionally making their design with a minimalist paradigm.
svidgen
05-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Alright. Well, in any case. My original point was meant to communicate the following ...
As a developer, if you dabble into design, you can at least expect yourself to learn the basics of UI design and layout and create sensible minimalistic (simple) designs. Though, if your interest is development, you may not wish to bother taking the time for highly involved graphic designs. And that's ok. Refer to Google :)
I stand corrected on my terminology. But, my clarified opinion remains!
As a developer, if you dabble into design, you can at least expect yourself to learn the basics of UI design and layout and create sensible minimalistic (simple) designs. Though, if your interest is development, you may not wish to bother taking the time for highly involved graphic designs. And that's ok. Refer to Google :)
I stand corrected on my terminology. But, my clarified opinion remains!
Jarrod1937
05-12-2010, 02:36 PM
ADDENDUM: I think the need to delve into the semantics takes things a little off-topic here. It was noted that a developer delving into design would produce relatively plain designs. To me, that means that the developer isn't going to spend hours or days crafting graphics. The site will have simple styles and images--not a lack of style and image.
And to that my response was is that so bad? A developer delving into design produces sites that look like Google's sites. And that seems to have worked out quite well. So, whether you disagree with the terminology I used is entirely irrelevant. Google is the prototype of developers who dabble into design.
Call it plain, simple, minimalist, or even Martian or <insert made up word> if you like. It is what it is! ... Is it not?
Well, if thats the way you think, the only way to really allow you to understand would be to pit you (assuming you're not a designer) against a designer and see what comes out.
A good analogy is minimalism in art. As a person just learning painting you may get some rather basic paintings out after a while, however compare this to a minimalist painting... there should be a difference there ;)
And to that my response was is that so bad? A developer delving into design produces sites that look like Google's sites. And that seems to have worked out quite well. So, whether you disagree with the terminology I used is entirely irrelevant. Google is the prototype of developers who dabble into design.
Call it plain, simple, minimalist, or even Martian or <insert made up word> if you like. It is what it is! ... Is it not?
Well, if thats the way you think, the only way to really allow you to understand would be to pit you (assuming you're not a designer) against a designer and see what comes out.
A good analogy is minimalism in art. As a person just learning painting you may get some rather basic paintings out after a while, however compare this to a minimalist painting... there should be a difference there ;)
Jarrod1937
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Alright. Well, in any case. My original point was meant to communicate the following ...
As a developer, if you dabble into design, you can at least expect yourself to learn the basics of UI design and layout and create sensible minimalistic (simple) designs. Though, if your interest is development, you may not wish to bother taking the time for highly involved graphic designs. And that's ok. Refer to Google :)
I stand corrected on my terminology. But, my clarified opinion remains!
I see, in that case i also understand your point too. Though keep in mind the graphics is only a small (but fun :-) part of designing, there is much more than just the graphics that go into it.
As a developer, if you dabble into design, you can at least expect yourself to learn the basics of UI design and layout and create sensible minimalistic (simple) designs. Though, if your interest is development, you may not wish to bother taking the time for highly involved graphic designs. And that's ok. Refer to Google :)
I stand corrected on my terminology. But, my clarified opinion remains!
I see, in that case i also understand your point too. Though keep in mind the graphics is only a small (but fun :-) part of designing, there is much more than just the graphics that go into it.
svidgen
05-12-2010, 02:55 PM
I see, in that case i also understand your point too. Though keep in mind the graphics is only a small (but fun :-) part of designing, there is much more than just the graphics that go into it.
Understood. But, like most fields of study, it is primarily a descriptive rather than a prescriptive study. One can acquire a good sense for quality minimalistic design by taking note of other good designs.
Unfortunately for myself, most of the time I spend studying design has been lost by lack of time and enthusiasm for playing with and implementing those principles ... You can probably see this reflected in my own sites -- they're pretty raw. (FYI, the Rowland Reading site in my signature is not my design)
Understood. But, like most fields of study, it is primarily a descriptive rather than a prescriptive study. One can acquire a good sense for quality minimalistic design by taking note of other good designs.
Unfortunately for myself, most of the time I spend studying design has been lost by lack of time and enthusiasm for playing with and implementing those principles ... You can probably see this reflected in my own sites -- they're pretty raw. (FYI, the Rowland Reading site in my signature is not my design)
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