help!will give free hosting

[zachzach]

ok, if someone would redo this layout:
http://www.subsilvernet.com/index.php
in VALID css, and divs, without tables,in valid html
I'll give free hosting:
30megs
PHP and CGI/Perl support
subdomains
cpanel access
10 pop3 accounts
ftp and frontpage support
fowarding support
easy phpbb support
easy counter setup
a TON more add ins
a TON of php mouduels or w/e you call um

[soccer362001]

Why dont you learn css and do it your self

[Compguy Pete]

good point... it's going to take you some time however your going to enjoy what you have a lot more!

Soccer you hit the goal there!!!

[Paul Jr]

I checked out your site, and this seems to be a bit more work than anyone would do for basically free. You'd be better off doing it yourself, as soccer and Pete suggested. You'll get better results, you'll know the code, and you'll get that warm fuzzy feeling when you make something with your own two hands :D.

[Sux0rZh@jc0rz]

ahh man dont give them cpanel access. dont want some code junkies getting access to my ****.

[zachzach]

your ****
you mean your **** hosted on my **** lol
naa i'd just give them the code and tell um to fix it and gfive it back
ok but would someone friggin tell me how to do something that would work that absolute positioning in XHTML
i can't beleive it, wtf!!!!
they removed absolute and relative positioning in XHTML
that was like the best thing in css!

[zachzach]

your ****
you mean your **** hosted on my **** lol
naa i'd just give them the code and tell um to fix it and gfive it back
ok but would someone friggin tell me how to do something that would work that absolute positioning in XHTML
i can't beleive it, wtf!!!!
they removed absolute and relative positioning in XHTML
that was like the best thing in css!

[soccer362001]

<style type="text/css">
body
{
position:absolute;
top:0px;
left:0px;
}
</style>

[zachzach]

xhtml doesn't support absolute positioning
maybe in css
ahh how does thsat help lol
i know some css but im not very good
and i have lots and lots of nested tables lol

[pyro]

Originally posted by zachzach
i know some css but im not very goodThen learn more.

[soccer362001]

zachzach, if you want an example of how it works look in my signature and there is a link to my site. VIEW THE SOURCE

[zachzach]

peoples...i get how to position a table
but if i have like 100 tables, isn't there an easier way than absolute positioning them alll!!!!

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by zachzach
peoples...i get how to position a table
but if i have like 100 tables, isn't there an easier way than absolute positioning them alll!!!! Yes, there is. There is also a way to do it without using tables at all, which is what you really should do... You should have no need to "position tables"...

[zachzach]

*position divs*
i meant
its just that if i made it into divs


thered be like 200 divs to absolute position

[DaveSW]

Well nest the divs - position the parent div:

<div id="parent_div">
<div id="1">
</div>
<div id="2">
</div>
</div>

the other two will sit one underneath the other then.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by zachzach
thered be like 200 divs to absolute position
I highly doubt you would need that many DIV's, and I would not recomend just absolutely positioning everything and everything just so you can get it exactly where you want. There are times where absolute positioning is needed, and good, but it should not be used exclusively -- IMHO ;).

[zachzach]

but you cant put divs side by side...like a td in a row

[pyro]

Div's are not tables. Forget how you used to layout pages - CSS layout requires a new way of thinking. If you go about trying to create a site with CSS, with a tables mentality, you'll get frusterated...

[chris9902]

that site could be made into a CSS layout in an hour or two...

[EDIT] F' ME.... have you seen this guys code.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by chris9902
[EDIT] F' ME.... have you seen this guys code.
I most certainly have. ;)

[zachzach]

yes css is nice in all
but tables allow you 2 lyout content
and if pyros right
either they should make tables valid
change css so you could make my design in css(lolz)
or do something
because new languages shouldn't limit our abilities
but expand them
i mean whats the point of switching if something

[pyro]

Who said your layout could not be made in CSS? Not I...

[chris9902]

No i did.

and css does not "limit our abilities"

css makes things so much better but it does make it harder to code some web sites... like yours.

your site has lots of images, but with web sites that use CSS (like pyro's) they use solid colors.

so it is possible but it is alot of work.

more then 1-2 hours as i posted before maybe 1-2 years looking at your code...;)

[Paul Jr]

The only reason this will be more work than usual is because of the nasty, icky code. You'd be better off keeping the old site just for reference, and redoing the whole thing from scratch.

[AdamBrill]

I'll redo it for you. It really is pretty basic, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm doing it mostly for just the practice, so... ;) Anyway, I don't want your hosting, but I do want my name on the bottom since I did totally re-make it.

BTW, the "nasty, icky code" does not matter at all. In order to redo it without tables, I had to start from scratch, so it didn't matter what the code was.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by AdamBrill

BTW, the "nasty, icky code" does not matter at all.
Well, we all aren't Super Adam, now are we? ;)

[chris9902]

there properly is a better way to do it but i don't care,

here is the top navigation for you.

CSS code ( save as style.css )

body {
width:100%;
background-color:#FFFFFF;
background-image: url(img/top_bg.png);
background-repeat:repeat-x;
}


/* top nav set-up when on link 1 */
#top_link1 {
position:absolute;
left:0px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_silver.png);
width:80px;
height:27px;
text-align:right;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link1 a {
color:#325A96;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link1 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_1 {
position:absolute;
left:80px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_1.png);
height:27px;
width:16px;
}

/* link 2 when on link 1 */
#top_link2 {
position:absolute;
left:101px;
top:0px;
width:30px;
height:27px;
text-align:left;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link2 a {
color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link2 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_2 {
position:absolute;
left:122px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_2.png);
height:27px;
width:15px;
}

/* link 3 when on link 1 */
#top_link3 {
position:absolute;
left:139px;
top:0px;
width:71px;
height:27px;
text-align:left;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link3 a {
color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link3 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_3 {
position:absolute;
left:193px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_2.png);
height:27px;
width:15px;
}

/* link 4 when on link 1 */
#top_link4 {
position:absolute;
left:213px;
top:0px;
width:60px;
height:27px;
text-align:left;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link4 a {
color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link4 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_4 {
position:absolute;
left:260px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_2.png);
height:27px;
width:15px;
}

/* link 5 when on link 1 */
#top_link5 {
position:absolute;
left:280px;
top:0px;
width:100px;
height:27px;
text-align:left;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link5 a {
color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link5 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_5 {
position:absolute;
left:350px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_2.png);
height:27px;
width:15px;
}

/* link 6 when on link 1 */
#top_link6 {
position:absolute;
left:370px;
top:0px;
width:50px;
height:27px;
text-align:left;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link6 a {
color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link6 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_6 {
position:absolute;
left:400px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_2.png);
height:27px;
width:15px;
}


/* link 7 when on link 1 */
#top_link7 {
position:absolute;
left:422px;
top:0px;
width:70px;
height:27px;
text-align:left;
vertical-align:middle;
}

#top_link7 a {
color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size:0.75em;
text-decoration:none;
font-weight: bold;
}

#top_link7 a:hover {
color:#C5D5E5;
}

#top_divide_7 {
position:absolute;
left:460px;
top:0px;
background-image:url(img/top_divide_2.png);
height:27px;
width:15px;
}

#top_2_silver {
position:absolute;
top:27px;
left:0px;
right:0px;
height:15px;
width:100%;
background-image:url(img/top_2_silver.png);
background-repeat:repeat-x;
}

now your XHTML. ( save as index.php )

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<title>Untitled Document</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
<style type="text/css" media="all">@import "style.css";</style>
</head>

<body>
<div id="top_link1"><a href="index.php">SubSilverNet</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_1"></div>
<div id="top_link2"><a href="http://my.subsilvernet.com/">My</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_2"></div>
<div id="top_link3"><a href="http://channels.subsilvernet.com/">Channels</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_3"></div>
<div id="top_link4"><a href="http://search.subsilvernet.com/">Search</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_4"></div>
<div id="top_link5"><a href="http://my.subsilvernet.com/account">My Account</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_5"></div>
<div id="top_link6"><a href="http://support.subsilvernet.com/">Help</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_6"></div>
<div id="top_link7"><a href="http://login.subsilvernet.com/">Login</a></div>
<div id="top_divide_7"></div>
<div id="top_2_silver"></div>
</body>
</html>

preview here (http://www.geocities.com/chris_robins_2000/index.htm)

Download ALL files (http://www.geocities.com/chris_robins_2000/subsilvernet.zip)

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by chris9902
there properly is a better way to do it but i don't care,You should care, because the entire page CSS should be about half as long as just that menu's CSS. :rolleyes: To put it mildly, there is definately a better way to do it, and I'll show it to you soon.

[pyro]

Originally posted by chris9902
there properly is a better way to do it but i don't careYou should. That code is unbelievable. The CSS for the entire site could probably be about the same length as what you've got for the top bar!

[AdamBrill]

Just for a comparison, when I re-made that part, it took only 19 lines, in comparison to your 244. :eek: My CSS for the entire page is only 135 lines(approximately, it's not quite done yet), almost half of just your menu CSS... With CSS like that, why not use tables??

[zachzach]

yes my code is awful lol
i never said you couldn't make a layout in css
but mines hard to make in css apparently
thank you but the hard part is doing the acualy middle piece

[AdamBrill]

Zachzach, if you agree to leave my name on the bottom of the page and not remove it with JS or any other way and leave the comment in the CSS code, I will give you the code I have made with valid CSS and valid HTML 4.01 Strict. I have tested it in IE5.5, IE6, FireBird, NS7, and Mozilla. Once you agree, I will upload it for you.

I also want to point out where chris9902 went wrong. There are two basic problems:

1. When many things have very similar code, use classes, not IDs.

2. Do not absolutely position the elements on your page unless absolutely necessary.

My suggestion to you is to look at my code for that part after I upload it. It would be good for you to see how it is properly done.

[zachzach]

oky doky
do i have 2 put ur name on every page?cuz i use that design on multiple pages
and how big
like 8pt or 12pt
or 72pt lol jk
ok upload it and then i''ll look at it
thankz

[zachzach]

but you can't give it to anybody else
thats cheap
just for my kk

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by zachzach
but you can't give it to anybody else
thats cheapI have created this for you for free and I won't promise that I won't give it to anyone else, although I don't have any plans to do so. It is not "cheap" to keep the rights to something that I created for free.

For the name, I have the name on the page and the comment in the CSS file, so just leave them as they are.

Here are the files. Try to learn a thing or two from it. ;) Enjoy!

EDIT: Attachment removed due to design theft.

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by zachzach
do i have 2 put ur name on every page?cuz i use that design on multiple pagesYes, leave it on all of the pages that use this CSS.

[Paul Jr]

I downloaded it and took a peek, and I must say Bravo, Adam. From the quick glance I took, it looks good :).

How long did it take you, anyway?

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
I downloaded it and took a peek, and I must say Bravo, Adam. From the quick glance I took, it looks good :).

How long did it take you, anyway? Thanks. I didn't time myself and I worked on it over several days, so I'm not really sure how long it took me. A couple hours at the most, probably around 2-3 hours. I mostly worked from a screen shot that I took of the page to create it, not using the existing code at all. I cut out my own graphics, etc., instead of using the existing graphics, which gave me more control over the whole thing.

If your interested in some "useless knowledge," here is a report of the number of hacks it took in each browser:

IE6: 1 hack
IE5.5: 6 hacks(mostly for the box model)
FireBird/Mozilla: 1 hack

FireBird seems to have a problem with margins around images in certain situations, which is what that hack is for, and IE had a problem with how it used the clear:both; command after I had floated some divs. They were all pretty minor, though.

[PeOfEo]

Ownes hack by any chance :D

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Ownes hack by any chance :D No.

[PeOfEo]

bah. Ownes hack rules! Though I am not using it anymore http://quasi-ke.servebeer.com/layout/index.html just box model hacks for ie5

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
bah. Ownes hack rules! Though I am not using it anymore http://quasi-ke.servebeer.com/layout/index.html just box model hacks for ie5 Man, that look familiar. I still like my version better, though, since you are still positioning most(actually nearly all) of your elements absolutely, and the code(minus the menu part) is probably at least twice as long as what mine was.

As for the menu part, I have a very hard time believing that those 7 links would really need over 200 lines of CSS, but I could be mistaken... My guess is if you wouldn't absolutely position the divs and if you used classes instead of ids, you could cut the code down to under 50 lines(and it would be much cleaner and easier to handle).

EDIT: I also noticed that some of your styles are inline and some are external. It would be best to put them all external, and get rid of all of the inline styles.

[PeOfEo]

Well I noticed as I was making this that it fared better to put some of them inline, the ones I was playing with because I could update them faster. I will move them when I do the includes. But the class thing, I had to position is absolutly like that, well not absolute, I could have done it relative, I just do not like relative as much. But I could not use a class because some are longer then others and I was trying to save horizontal space because it is right from side to side at 800 x 600. If it were just links in a bar and not drop downs it would be one line of code though, but since I wanted drop downs I have tons of it :rolleyes: such is life, but I think they look nice, they will be less 'invisible' in the future and they add a little more conveiniance to the user having options there rather then having to do to another page to click on a link in menu. Just my (probably messed up as usual) logic for doing things the way I did.

[AdamBrill]

Since this thread was most certainly not started to discuss your site, I am going to refrain from going off-topic. If you want to discuss your site, go ahead and start a new thread for it...

[PeOfEo]

I did :( You neglected it. But we basically disgussed everything about it to disguss, I just wanted to ask if you used my owens hack for ie6. But you didn't.

[AdamBrill]

Ah, so you did. You should have PMed me and let me know that the thread existed, since I am not on all that much and didn't even notice that you had posted. I will look over your site and either PM you or reply to the other thread if I see anything of importance that I didn't already mention...

[PeOfEo]

ty, but I think the major stuff was hashed out. I use the float:; and made it strict but ty. Ok back to the orignal layout in disgussion.

[zachzach]

WOW
ty much lol
umm...well acually since i made the acual layout, if you used my layout it would really be very fair
you could use ur amazing(seriously its really good) coding for something else, its fine.
but i made the acualy layout so..
umm im leaving ur name in but moving it around
dont worry ppl will still see it
just i need to add some other stuff related to that

also....
just a challange for someone, not relevent now
but i wonder if you guys could go to the old version of the site[url]http://www.subsilvernet.com/oldsite/index.php[url] and figure out why things just missing, for no reason
its kinda pointless but wierd 2 so...who knows maybe it was just my comp...i doubt that though

again:ty alot adam

[zachzach]

what gives?!!
anytime i even TOUCH something in the styles.css, everything goes topsyturvsy!images go everywhere
even when i fix it back 2 normal, its still wierd!
what gives!??

[pyro]

You probably do not understand how they are working, and thus, are not able to keep them working when you try to make changes. I would recommend learning as much CSS as you can...

[zachzach]

nonono
like when i type in:
font-weight: bold;
it doesn't work
and the images in the page disapere and move around
ok now ive finaly been able to change it without it going crazy
but for some reason
" font-weight: bold; "
is not working
when adam uses it, it works
when i use it, nonono, it just doesn't happen
why have i been cursed by css
what did i do
EVIL
^sorry^ im taking out my stress on you lolz

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by zachzach
when adam uses it, it works
when i use it, nonono, it just doesn't happen
why have i been cursed by cssCursed? No. You just don't know enough about CSS. ;) Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to keep editing it for you, so unless you have a specific question, your on your own... You should try to learn everything you can about CSS, and maybe look at my code and see if you can figure out what I'm doing.

[PeOfEo]

I would reccomend going to www.w3schools.com and using them as a quick reference while you are working so you can figure out what maybe one line is doing or something. They are also great to get syntax on the fly.

[zachzach]

i know some css
but for some reason its just not working???
lots of people already said font-weight:bold; should work
also, even when i put <strong> and <b> signs around text in the header, nothing happens

[PeOfEo]

post that section of code
you can always just say
<span style="font-weight:bold;">text</span>

[zachzach]

why would that work if <b> and <strong didn't
ok i'll try it
note the style tag is just a place for in the middle of the document css, right?

[PeOfEo]

I do not see the style tag as much as declarations in the head for a class or id, but I use it, not a bunch but, here and there. It is just for throwing a few attributes directly in the tag of an element, it can be a little better if it is just for one element or something if you do not have a style block in the head of your document already.

[neil]

Originally posted by zachzach
ok, if someone would redo this layout:
http://www.subsilvernet.com/index.php
in VALID css, and divs, without tables,in valid html
I'll give free hosting:
30megs
PHP and CGI/Perl support
subdomains
cpanel access
10 pop3 accounts
ftp and frontpage support
fowarding support
easy phpbb support
easy counter setup
a TON more add ins
a TON of php mouduels or w/e you call um

the links to "my account" and "help" son't work.

Can I have some free hosting now? :D ;)

[zachzach]

maybe
i'll tell you when my hosting server is up, so anyone can get hosting

[AdamBrill]

Well, after thinking that that specific design(http://www.subsilvernet.com/index.php) looked extremely familiar while I was "re-creating" it with CSS, I finally got around to checking. After a little research, I found that zachzach had virtually stolen the entire layout from juno (http://www.juno.com). :rolleyes: I also noticed that in this (http://forums.webdeveloper.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24742&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) thread he posted a link to this (http://www.subsilvernet.com/im/index.htm) design by "himself". After a little research, I found this. (http://www.srctec.com/index.htm) :rolleyes:

zachzach, you no longer have permission to use my CSS, since I will not support you stealing other people's designs. I also highly encourage your taking them both down before they get reported to either Juno or ******* and they take legal action.

All of my time re-creating this in CSS is also a waste, since you forgot to mention beforehand that you stole the design from Juno. :rolleyes: Maybe I will write Juno and ask them if they want it. :p

So what do you have to say for yourself, zachzach??

[Paul Jr]

Oh my god... First Ryan's site, now this?

I never thought I'd ever, ever see the day... :( :( :(

[zachzach]

i changed the layouts alot, if you look at the code
yes i tecnicy did "take" the juno design, if you r determined on getting me in touble
I redid the ENTIRE layout of subsilvernet, i just looked at the design.
how can they take legal action
i haven't "leagaly" declared i made it?also the sothing thing is barely like each other
and yes i took the menu but after reasearch, i found it is under GPL, im prety sure about that.also there site design is prety general.If someone finds the menu is not gpl, please tell me. i was under the impression the menu was gpl.

[zachzach]

i will remove the main subsilver.com design from the contest, but im under the impresion i did nothing legaly wrong
anywayz
http://www.subsilvernet.com/im/2
and
blumec.com
are mine and you wont be able to find something similar

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by zachzach
yes i tecnicy did "take" the juno design, if you r determined on getting me in touble
That's stealing, which is a crime.

Originally posted by zachzach
how can they take legal action
i haven't "leagaly" declared i made it?
You just said you did "take" the juno design, which entitles them to legal action, correct? Also, I could point out a few posts where you explicitly stated you created the site/layout.

Originally posted by zachzach
also the sothing thing is barely like each other
If you are refering to the second link Adam posted, then I find that hard to believe. They look very much alike.

Originally posted by zachzach
i will remove the main subsilver.com design from the contest
Contest? Who cares about the contest, you could be faced with serious legal charges.

[zachzach]

i put take in quotes
i used the look and some images, otherwise, i made it seperatly
plus what are they going to do?sue me?i will report myself to juno.but ******* i do not think i really should have to

[zachzach]

i have reported to juno
i am awaiting a reponse regarding if they want me 2 take it down

[PeOfEo]

why would you rip off their design though, juno is a major dialup provider, I am suprised no one noticed it sooner, like several weeks ago when you first were posting about it.

[zachzach]

look, it was a very bad choice and addmitingly it wass very stupid. i doubt i will do it again. my applologies

[PeOfEo]

nonono but I mean, putting that aside, why juno? There are other good layouts out there that you could have jacked and no one whold have even known.

[AdamBrill]

Zachzach, there is no excuse for it. You seem to be trying to make it sound like you did nothing wrong. How can you possibly think that?? Do you really feel that there is nothing wrong with completely swiping someone's design? If so, I feel sick. I can't believe that you ever did it, much less try to say that you didn't do anything wrong after you did. :(

The only other thing I will comment on is this:i changed the layouts alot, if you look at the code If I would take a screen shot, the only difference between the two sites would be the links(and very slight other differences). What you did was wrong. You should remove the design now. You should take it down, and if Juno ever writes back and says you can steal their design(yeah right :rolleyes: ), you can put it back up.

Juno developers put a lot of hard work into making that design. Even if I would get permission from a company to use their website, I would not feel right using it after they spent all of their time creating it. I can almost guarentee you, though, that if you get a reply, it won't be one saying that you can use their design. They payed top dollar for that design, I'm sure, and they aren't going to give it away for free.

If you don't take it down a design that you stole, you are losing a lot of creditability in my book.

[PunkSktBrdr01]

All of this design stealing is getting ridiculous! Learning from a design is a good idea, but completely replicating the appearance, even with different code, is definitely not okay.

zachzach, you even admitted to using "some images" from the original site! How is that not stealing!?

[zachzach]

its coming down.i did not get a reply from juno.at all.duno i think theyd be mad a little...anywayz...yea i did screw up i was being a moron....this thread is kinda prime so pyro or somebody should lock it or delte/close/ or w/e you call it, it

[zachzach]

umm why juno.
well it was a good design and yeas i guess it was dumb to steal i big companys design....anywayz...i was being a moron

[neil]

surely it doesn't matter that much,

sometimes good design doesn't mean re-enventing the wheel, does it? :confused:

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by neil
surely it doesn't matter that much,

sometimes good design doesn't mean re-enventing the wheel, does it? :confused: Are you trying to say that there is nothing wrong with stealing a design?? :rolleyes:

[neil]

its not like its a criminal offence or owt ;) :D

nah i wouldn't reccommending stealing a design, not unless you beat the author round the head with a lead pipe first to make sure they can't chase after you.

[pyro]

Originally posted by neil
its not like its a criminal offence...Last I checked, copyright infringiment was indeed.

[neil]

personally, I generally don't rip peoples designs off, but look to others for inspitration, if a site reccommends or encourages using their css then that can give me something to work with and changed the style, whilst keeping the layout, (I'm slightly confused by how flanking menus and layouts done in css - and I can't say I could code that off the top of my head)