Cowboy Webdesigners!

[Bonner]

"We have cowboy builders, cowboy plumbers and cowboy joiners.

If you cannot 'build' a webpage and you offer web design for money you are just another cowboy.

Thank you cowboy: you are thanked for ruining the image of web designers. It is no wonder the web has died over the last few years."

How many people feel like this here? I do.

[PeOfEo]

I don't at all. Maybe its because I have never met a cowboy, maybe that is because I am not a cowboy myself... Just someone who is really really awesome and hard core in a hard code sort of a way. :cool:

[buntine]

It doesnt bother me really...

Theres lots of money to be made from the web, they are just trying to make some cash.. All those who arent serious fade away anyway.

Regards.

[Paul Jr]

Pardon me for being dense, but is this a thread ragging on cowboys? Isn't there something in the posting guidelines about this...?

[Bonner]

I never knew there were posting guidelines. I will cooperate fully with abiding by them.

[starrwriter]

Originally posted by Bonner
"We have cowboy builders, cowboy plumbers and cowboy joiners.

If you cannot 'build' a webpage and you offer web design for money you are just another cowboy.

Thank you cowboy: you are thanked for ruining the image of web designers. It is no wonder the web has died over the last few years."

Yippy ki yea and git along little doggies.

[PeOfEo]

ahhh I am a city slicker... But I do watch a lot of clint eastwood movies, thats got to count for something right?

[Compguy Pete]

I think Bonner has a point thou... I have met plenty of businesses that have been taken by one of these "Cowboy webdesigners". I have always called them something different, which I will not mention here!

However they do make it very hard for those of us who use webdesign as a way of life. Trying to show a client that the web can be useful is difficult for a business that has spent thousands and never seen a sale.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Compguy Pete
Trying to show a client that the web can be useful is difficult for a business that has spent thousands and never seen a sale. I've worked with a company that literally ran themselves out of money on these kinds of "web developers". Currently, their entire project is on hold, as they don't have any money to get the web site completed. When I took over, it was running php-nuke, using what looked like a default template - and the guy that made that was the second developer that couldn't come through for them! Unbelieveable.

[PeOfEo]

how can they get away with that? I mean wouldnt you pay them a little for initial setup but the bulk of the money a week after the site is done and it still works or something? I mean I wouldn't pay anyone up front for something like that. I would want to see the cutumb scripting I want working and I would want to see valid markup. (though most laymen would not know to look for valid markup)

[Bonner]

Pyro, that is quite shocking to hear. I actually never thought about it putting businesses out of business before.

I did not even think about the impact it is having on us to be honest. I just look around all the time and see poor quality websites that look like they have had about 1 days work put on them.

My point exatly weather I posted this in the wrong forum or not, is, despite the web is a free and open place people are not taking the right measures to ensure that the right people are hired probbly due to the lack of knowledge.

I myself am not ready to start building websites for people yet and will not for the next 5 years at least.

I build some websites at the moment for the experience but I only do it for free.

[PeOfEo]

If a crapily made website is your dfinition of cowboy then I see that often... but its more a lazyness thing then a not know how to make it right. The problem with this is half the time the company does not know that an inaccessable site that works for ie only (as an example) could be killing their revenue.

[MikeOS]

Interesting thread. I read an article about 6 months ago by some top business analyst that stated 'web designers/developers are fast gaining a reputation equivalent to that of lawyers'. Not a very nice comment I thought, but I could see his point.

[buntine]

I myself am not ready to start building websites for people yet and will not for the next 5 years at least.

Shouldnt take this long.

I think its more out of ignorance than anything else. Alot of people simply aquire a basic knowledge of HTML and then whip up a few sites for local companies.
All so they can say "i have done this..."

Regards.

[Bonner]

Shouldnt take this long.

It does if I want to be the next Bill Gates, but known for good things.

It is disapointing to see people lacking with skills and thinking they can build websites.

Most are willing to learn though but do not try to learn themselves and would rather seek someone else to sort out their messy markup and things.

Although I do not mind helping because it helps clean up the www.

The problem is: the Internet is not owned by anyone so anything goes really.

When I do start building websites for money though, I hope to be known for my standards (in a good way of course) before I even start. At least then I can be proud of what I have created.

[buntine]

Bill Gates had started Microsoft by the time he had been programming for 4 years...

I see your point, and completely agree with it. Personally, i spend WAY too long trying to be the next Bill Gates. One day it will pay off. Infact, its already starting to!

Regards,
Andrew Buntine.

[PeOfEo]

I love how the governments try to regulate the internet with the ADA with accessability requirements and the UK equivilent... but I do not see any law suits about accessability or any sites getting shut down... seems like an idle threat.

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
If a crapily made website is your dfinition of cowboy then I see that often... but its more a lazyness thing then a not know how to make it right.
this is similar to society's view of hackers vs. hacker's views of hackers. hacker was once a badge of honor worn by those who used to computer to stretch the limits of computing. now it is a mark of shame to the public. if someone is viewed as a hacker, then they are automatically a thief. yet the person that does things like this is known as a cracker. i did a 30 minute psychology speech on this (and got an 'A') and i think it's horrible what's being done to the computing world.

what's even worse is that next year, our school will be sending out grades VIA the internet (not sure whether email or cgi). they know well and good that there are several people in the school that can exploit that VERY easily and yet they do it anyway. God bless america, because someone has to.

[buntine]

Im a hacker; i always will be.
And i have never broken into another machine without authorisation, nor have i done anything else which would lable me as a 'hacker' in the medias view.

Shame on the fools who turned in into a bad word.

Regards.

[rhsunderground]

just found another point.
Originally posted by Bonner
It is disapointing to see people lacking with skills and thinking they can build websites.

This is why things like Yahoo! PageBuilder and M$Word's 'Save as Webpage' feature are horrible. they generate CRAP code and they get people thinking that they are all hot stuff because they can make a webpage. yet if they DO learn how to code and then go back and look at what they made and try to fix it, it is nearly impossible, or at least not worth the time. i spent less time COMPLETELY redoing our school's creative writing page (http://www.esu3.k12.ne.us/districts/ralston/hs/rhsweb/Schettler/creativewriting.html) then i did trying to clean up all the crap that M$Word put in place of actual HTML. arrrrgh....

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by buntine
And i have never broken into another machine without authorisation, nor have i done anything else which would lable me as a 'hacker' in the medias view.


and cheers to you sir for knowing what is professional.

[Robert Wellock]

I know of nobody in the UK Web Accessibility field that uses WYSIWYG Editors because such editors are not capable of doing the job right.

[buntine]

Two out of the three web desing companies i have worked with used WYSISYG editors to create their layouts. Obviously, they contracted and employed people like me to validate their code and write the server-side applications. But on their part, it was mostly done in Frontpage 2003.

I couldnt believe it at first. But then i realised how much they were beating the competition. Using HTML in the business world is simply too slow, provided you are aiming to secure some market share.

Dont get me wrong, you should always have your code validated (or atleast working correctly in multiple browsers), but to make real money whilst keeping to deadlines, you really have to be able to spit out working web sites within a couple of days.

Regards,
Andrew Buntine.

[Bonner]

A really important exam on computers for my final GCSE grade at school for ICT had a question:

Q: How can you protect your computer from hackers?

So I answered it with:

A: Hackers are good people who work hard to improve a programs performance and make the world of computing a better place. You should not try to protect your computer from them as it makes no sense to. Why would you?

And I got it marked wrong so I challanged the wording of each question and have caused a big fuss where I live over computers. I still have not been awarded the mark.

[iniquity101]

Originally posted by Bonner


So I answered it with:

A: Hackers are good people who work hard to improve a programs performance and make the world of computing a better place. You should not try to protect your computer from them as it makes no sense to. Why would you?


GCSE ICT is not really about what you think though, to get a good mark all you have to do is memorize everything you are taught and write it down in the exam.

Your answer to the question is wrong because not all hackers want to improve the program performance, so most people would want to protect themselves. There was one hacker who stole thousands of peoples credit card numbers off online shopping sites databases, and posted the code of the program that did it for him on a website. He claimed he was 'exposing' flaws in Windows, although millions of people lost alot of money because of it.

[Bonner]

Originally posted by iniquity101
There was one hacker who stole thousands of peoples credit card numbers off online shopping sites databases, and posted the code of the program that did it for him on a website. He claimed he was 'exposing' flaws in Windows, although millions of people lost alot of money because of it.

If he was 'exposing' he is 'exploiting' and that is cracking. Your arguement is lame and incorrect.

GCSE's teach hackers are bad, this is wrong. They should teach the real meaning.

I ofter refer to crackers and inexperienced computer wizkids idiots now and use the word developer for people who do good things.

[PeOfEo]

and this is why God invented SSL, TLS, MD5, and SALT. This is why He also prevented people from trying to log in more then 5 times within a 10 minute period to prevent brute force attacks.

[tigmarque]

Once upon a time the word gay used to just mean happy. Over time vocabulary and the meaning of words change.

Bonner, school is a political field ground. To get good marks in most subjects even if you are asked for your opinion you will get higher marks if you give the opinion of the marker. That's not to say it's right, but it's the reality of the situation.

Otherwise I'm in agreement with everyone :) I find that there are so many so called "Elite Designers" on the internet these days who wouldn't know a scrap of HTML if it beat them around the face.

And it shames me to think these people are the so called teachers of a new generation of web programmers and developers.

Bah. I'm just cynical on all accounts :)

[buntine]

PeOfEo:

this is why God invented SSL

No, Netscape invented SSL. :p

[Robert Wellock]

You Muppet on you GCSE exam you do not write hackers are good what you should have written:

Most people confuse the term 'cracker' with 'hacker' these are two totally different terms that have been blurred due to ignorance with both the media and less IT savvy population.

However, if you would like to know how I would protect my computer from wetware that had intent in breaking the Computer Misuse Act and stealing sensitive data, etc.

Then I wouldn't connect the PC to a network. Secondly I would place logical password protection on the machine and physically lock the room.

That type of answer would have given full marks, since it covers both "physical" and "logical" data protection.

[Bonner]

Well taking in consideration what you said, I should have at least gotten half marks then.

Thanks for that I will remeber that for my next ICT exam which is paper 2.

[Sam]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
just found another point.

This is why things like Yahoo! PageBuilder and M$Word's 'Save as Webpage' feature are horrible. they generate CRAP code and they get people thinking that they are all hot stuff because they can make a webpage. yet if they DO learn how to code and then go back and look at what they made and try to fix it, it is nearly impossible, or at least not worth the time. i spent less time COMPLETELY redoing our school's creative writing page (http://www.esu3.k12.ne.us/districts/ralston/hs/rhsweb/Schettler/creativewriting.html) then i did trying to clean up all the crap that M$Word put in place of actual HTML. arrrrgh....
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/deofficer

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by buntine
PeOfEo:

No, Netscape invented SSL. :p technically, but God inspired it!

[Robert Wellock]

Even I once got demerit marks at University for commenting on a spelling error in a DNA sequence, which meant the question made no sense, CAG is different to CAC (4 bases: adenine (A), guanine (G), thymine (T), and cytosine (C).

I was correct of course but still I got marked down for being smart - even though I answered the question as if the spelling error was not there.

[buntine]

technically, but God inspired it!

I dont follow... They developed it to make more sales during the 93 - 94 net boom. :p

[PeOfEo]

God also inspired mozilla. Its true, I will show you some prophecy in revelation

And they worshipped the dragon ... who is able to make war with him? - rev 13:4

never mind the ellipsis.

[buntine]

Still dont follow... :eek:

[Paul Jr]

From the book of Mozilla, 7:15 (about:mozilla)

Psst... about:mozilla
:D

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
God also inspired mozilla. Its true, I will show you some prophecy in revelation

quote:
And they worshipped the dragon ... who is able to make war with him? - rev 13:4


never mind the ellipsis.
my parents are both ministers. i'll have to ask them about that one. which translation is that?

[PeOfEo]

nkjv :p

[PeOfEo]

Revelation 13:4 -- And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Ok ok, I took it out of context a little bit, here is the full verse. Still means the same thing! ;)

[rhsunderground]

perhaps in the full verse, one might see netscape as the dragon and mozilla as the beast?

[buntine]

Mozilla was the name of the animated lizard which Netscape introduced in 94.

It was a play on words. 'The Godzilla to kill the Mosaic browser'.
Mosaic, being the brain-child of Bernars-Lee in 90-91.

Mozilla ;)

[PeOfEo]

ok now tell us the story behind gecko, you really are a computer historian :p. Oh btw, I have been looking for old computers, I want to start a collection lol. commodor 64, amiga, apple III, so on and so fourth. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=98
We actually owned one of these:
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=271
I wish we still had it so bad, I had a really cool crossword puzzle game and maze game.

[buntine]

I have a commodore 64 and still use it! They were fantastic machines.

[PeOfEo]

I want one real bad but I do not want to bid on old computers on ebay... the fedex boys will drop it or something and then I have crap. I ordered a case from newegg one time and it came to me with a huge dent on it! But I rma's it because it really did not have a lot of foam and got a replacement for free (I love newegg)
I need to get my hands on a mac3 again, I know the first thing I would do is take it to a lan party and set it up and open the crossword puzzle game, just to see the look on the people's faces with cathods in their systems that have 3.06ghz p4s. I mean I would take my normal rig, just stash it for a little while. I would have to get a picture of a lil old mac with the glare of the cathods from gaming quality rigs sitting next to it.

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
God also inspired mozilla.Originally posted by buntine
Still dont follow... :eek: Originally posted by Paul Jr
From the book of Mozilla, 7:15 (about:mozilla)

Psst... about:mozilla
:D

As Paul pointed out, there's nothing not to get... ;)

And so at last the beast fell and the unbelievers rejoiced. But all was not lost, for from the ash rose a great bird. The bird gazed down upon the unbelievers and cast fire and thunder upon them. For the beast had been reborn with its strength renewed, and the followers of Mammon cowered in horror.

from The Book of Mozilla, 7:15

[PeOfEo]

REVELATION 13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a browser as their default:

REVELATION 13:17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the browser.

REVELATION 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is a version of mozilla firefox; and that number is 0.8.

[buntine]

lol. Very good;) The Gospel According To PeOfEo.

[PeOfEo]

PFSV: Peo Feo Standard Version. We need to do that, make a webdev gosple... have lots of tutorials and just webdev stuff written all biblical.... If it were not such blasphemy/sacrilege.... oh we need to do it anyway!

[buntine]

Yes, that would be fun. Fred could give a tutorial on why IE is a direct spawn of satan.

[PeOfEo]

That is reserved for geocities! :P I already have a verse from out translation of matthew in my sig!

[Robert Wellock]

Alas, the coder was tangled in a strangling web; though the giant-spider of invalid-syntax dare not eat him, for it was torn asunder by the gaze of mighty wisdom...

[Bonner]

I think it is the fact the Internet Explorer has seen very little updates in the last 5 years.

So we are still practically using Internet Exporer 5.

Mozilla is pretty crap for expansion, nothing like Netscape's original browser was.

Has anyone noticed that when Microsoft stop expanding, so does everything else?

[buntine]

Netscapes original was great. It kicked the hell out of the first version of IE.

MS poses a threat to these companies, they only need to expand when MS does. Or something like that.

Regards.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Bonner
Mozilla is pretty crap for expansion, nothing like Netscape's original browser was.I hope by "expansion", you do not mean adding proprietary crap!

[Bonner]

I was on about the amount of new ideas they are putting into the browser.

[pyro]

Browser funcionality, then? Such as tabbed browsing, etc?

[Bonner]

No. New ideas like new languages to help making dynamic webpages easier and things.

Netscape came up with JavaScript and CSS.

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by PeOfEo

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=271
I wish we still had it so bad, I had a really cool crossword puzzle game and maze game.
my IT teacher just threw one away last month.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Bonner
Netscape came up with ... CSS. Where'd you hear that? You might want to read this (http://www.w3.org/Style/LieBos2e/history/) for the actual history of CSS.

[rhsunderground]

perhaps we should set up a webgroup somewhere to work on the www.internet.gospel.

[shalombi]

On the cowboy subject i once met a computer "specialist" who was suposed to repair my comp.
he told me aha i see the problem some hacker has put a virus in youre ventilator!!!
since when does a ventilator have ram chips in which you can place a virus?
i did take my computer with me elsewhere which i think was a good decision.
anyne ever heard of a virus inside a ventilator??
i guess he's a cowboy allright

Max

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
my IT teacher just threw one away last month. Thats terrible. Mozilla is not an expantion of netscape, its its own browser, infact netscape has nothing to do with mozilla other then the netscape corperation uses mozilla's source code in their browser so it is netscape one might say who is makeing an expantion of mozilla. Netscape donates large sums of money to mozilla??? Not sure about the whole business relationship, but I am sure Buntine will fill me in :D.

[buntine]

Mozilla is not an expantion of netscape, its its own browser, infact netscape has nothing to do with mozilla other then the netscape corperation uses mozilla's source code in their browser so it is netscape one might say who is makeing an expantion of mozilla

Netscape developed Mozilla. It was originally their mascot. So, thereore Netscape has everything to do with Mozilla. Remember what i told you about Mozillas origins?

:D

[PeOfEo]

I thought mozilla jacked the ns mascot but was independent of ns. I thought mozilla was a stand alone group that just picked up huge bags of money from ns from time to time.

[buntine]

Nope. Netscape released Netscape Navigator v1 in 94. It wasnt until MS introduced IE v3 when the Netscape reign came to an end.

Netscape made most of their cash through the sale of e-commerce servers which supported their SSL technology. And I-Apps which they sold for Intranets.

These days, Mozilla mey be an independant company, but it definetely didnt start that way.

Regards,
Andrew Buntine.

[PeOfEo]

It seems kind of dump for moz to be a subsidiary of ns and then ns7 is very much like firefox/bird except with somewhat dumber interface. You would think they would combine them and drop mozilla or drop navigator, then instead of having 2 browsers that get 1% of the internet (well its small) you would have one that gets a wopping 2%!

[buntine]

At one stage, they had over 90%. In late 1994 and early 1995 :)

Though, no company can stand up to the wrath of Microsoft. One day, it will happen.

Regards.

[PeOfEo]

Yep, I am on microsoft's side because when they take over the world I want to be on their good side. Maybe get a cooshy rank in their class system and not be put in jail like the php developers of the world who will not repent.

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by buntine
Though, no company can stand up to the wrath of Microsoft. One day, it will happen.

as of yet, the grocery store i work at has stood up to M$. bill gates is no match for our 4 aisles of fury!

[PeOfEo]

did bill gates attempt a hostile take over of the produce section? Well if it is a partnership or a sole proprietorship I guess bill would have to resort to arson.

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
did bill gates attempt a hostile take over of the produce section? Well if it is a partnership or a sole proprietorship I guess bill would have to resort to arson.
he came in and tried to show us how IE could make the cucumbers turn into peanut butter and how hide our mayonnaise's source code.

[PeOfEo]

Well IIS6 on w2k3 can keep your mayonnaise very safe from hackers. Especially if you use asp.net 1.1 and cover your tracks and use the server validation of form values, that mayonnaise will not be oppened by anyone before a purchase and do not even worrie about expiration date!

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Well IIS6 on w2k3 can keep your mayonnaise very safe from hackers. Especially if you use asp.net 1.1 and cover your tracks and use the server validation of form values
i'll tell my boss. she'll look at me and go 'what the hell did you just say?' and then i'll tell one of the managers that's in school in computer programming and he'll say 'nerd.'
mayonnaise will not be oppened by anyone before a purchase
but what about those bastard kids that 'accidentally' dropped a jar of mayonnaise and a gallon of milk because they were too heavy? i think if i used javascript to run an IP check of the kids that come in (none of them will be smart enough to have js disabled) i can know which ones to make sure take a cart.

[rhsunderground]

i decided to dig this up. mainly because it ended hilariously. read the last 10 or so posts.
as of yet, the grocery store i work at has stood up to M$. bill gates is no match for our 4 aisles of fury!
one week after i posted this, we had a store meeting to find out that we were closing. DAMN YOU, BILL GATES!

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

what the...that's old!

[rhsunderground]

it was from right after i became a mod, almost 2 years ago