Dynamic iFrame

[Traffic]

Hello...

If I am using an iFrame:

<iframe src="calendar.php" width=225 height=350 scrolling=no frameborder=0></iframe>

If my iFrame consists of more than '350 height'... how can I dynamically lengthen the iFrame...?

I have tried height=100% and, of course, this does not work...


Any help would be appreciated...

[DaveSW]

If you want the iframe to just expand with it's contents why not use a div? you could then use a server side include to insert the content.

[Traffic]

I dont understand...

[Traffic]

If anyone would like to know... I did complete this function...

You can use the OBJECT method using JavaScript to determine the height of your iFrame contents...



<script language="JavaScript">
iFrameHeight();
function iFrameHeight() {
if(document.getElementById && !(document.all)) {
h = document.getElementById('custFrame').contentDocument.body.scrollHeight;
document.getElementById('custFrame').style.height = h;
}
else if(document.all) {
h = document.frames('custFrame').document.body.scrollHeight;
document.all.custFrame.style.height = h;
}
}
</script>


...

[shanterusan]

Thanks for posting your solution, Traffic. I've been having a similar problem. I'm going to try your solution and give you feedback. ^_^

[fredmv]

Seems pretty redundant when you could, like Dave said, just have the actual content on the page (this would be MUCH more accessible)...

[shanterusan]

What I'm doing is making a blog. The person I'm making it for specially requested that this version be entirely done using dhtml. Then after that's been up for a while he wants a completely new version done using php (which will be much easier, I know).

[js_prof_cons]

What I'm doing is making a blog. The person I'm making it for specially requested that this version be entirely done using dhtml. Then after that's been up for a while he wants a completely new version done using php (which will be much easier, I know).That's dumb. Why do something wrong in the first place just to correct it? Why not just do it right in the first place (using PHP, that is)?

[shanterusan]

There's no need to be rude. Particularly not about my boyfriend, who is learning web development from scratch - his blog started as a text file hosted on Geocities - and is using my development-in-stages as an opportunity to learn it for himself.

I don't really care if you think dhtml is "wrong" and php is the only "right" way to do anything. If you're not contributing anything useful don't expect people (or me, at least) to give a damn about your opinion.

[js_prof_cons]

There's no need to be rude. Particularly not about my boyfriend, who is learning web development from scratch - his blog started as a text file hosted on Geocities - and is using my development-in-stages as an opportunity to learn it for himself.I'm not being rude. I'm offering good opinions. But I will say you were wrong here again, that is, to start with Geocities. <to_self>I'm glad I never went through a Geocities phase</to_self>.I don't really care if you think dhtml is "wrong" and php is the only "right" way to do anything. If you're not contributing anything useful don't expect people (or me, at least) to give a damn about your opinion.I neer said dhtml is wrong. I said it was wrong for this task. And I never said PHP was the only right solution. It can easily be done in asp(.net), perl, or any other server side language. PHP is just the language you mentioned. i would call this useful. Once you get past your Geocities phase, you'll realize that this is useful constructive criticism, not rudeness.

[PeOfEo]

I don't really care if you think dhtml is "wrong" and php is the only "right" way to do anything. If you're not contributing anything useful don't expect people (or me, at least) to give a damn about your opinion.
The fact is it is wrong. The use of client side scripting should be kept to nonessential things like aesthetics only. If the script can hinder the accessibility of a website if done client side it should definatly be done server side. Also, not just from an accessibility standpoint, but from a design and usability standpoint you should not be even using an iframe. You will find that it will be easier to deal with a div, the iframe is going to cripple your ability to design. Frames tend to irritate users as it does not allow them to bookmark pages or come back to pages later and it will tend to hurt your search engine rating. What dave originally posted is the best course of action.

[MstrBob]

Really, what you want to consider is, if a user comes to read your website, and doesn't have Javascript enabled, can they read all your content? Javascript-less users include search engines, some assistive technologies, and users who are irritated by some common, and annoying javascripts and have chosen to disable it. In addition, if you already know of a better way, and instead choose a worse way, with the plan of converting later, that's counter-productive. You're better off doing things the best way you know how the first time around.

[shanterusan]

Instead of assuming I don't know the fundamentals of web development, why don't you learn to read? I said my boyfriend, not me, used Geocities. He doesn't have money to pay for better hosting and nor does he have a spare box to set up (though if he did, I'm more than capable of setting it up). The php version of his blog (not mine) was going to be implemented later when better hosting is an option. Not that any of that is your business.

Did anyone notice I said blog? It's a tiny personal website read by a few people.
If it were on a larger scale than I would have been using server-side scripting to begin with but that is NOT an option right now.

This is also none of your business, but I use Tripod to host my blog because it offers php. The lack of control over my hosting is irritating but I don't have much choice.

I'm not being rude. I'm offering good opinions.
You didn't substantiate them in your first post.


I neer said dhtml is wrong. I said it was wrong for this task.
Um, no you didn't. You said:
Why do something wrong in the first place just to correct it?

Once you get past your Geocities phase, you'll realize that this is useful constructive criticism, not rudeness.
No doubt you know a bit about scripting and I'm sure some newbie would appreciate your "constructive criticism". But my query was entirely unrelated to server-side scripting. I wasn't inviting you to criticise the fact that my boyfriend doesn't have hosting that allows server-side scripting.

[shanterusan]

My last post was finished and sent just after yours appeared, MstrBob. By the way, your courtesy is appreciated.

In addition, if you already know of a better way, and instead choose a worse way, with the plan of converting later, that's counter-productive. You're better off doing things the best way you know how the first time around.

As I said, the better way just isn't an option right now. My boyfriend wants the dhtml blog finished as soon as possible but better hosting will not be available for a while.

If you're doing a task for someone else, you're working to their requirements. You can tell them that what they want isn't feasible with their setup, but if: their setup can't be changed immediately, any solution is required ASAP, they (and you) don't mind the clumsiness of an interim solution, then they get the interim solution. That's what I'm doing. (And I don't see why I should have to defend myself, as I said in my last post.) As I also said, this is a learning experience for my "client."

[MstrBob]

You stated that you were making this blog for your friend. If you are creating the blog, then it's your responsibility to use the correct tools. If someone without Javascript DOES want to read it, then your attitude is "I really don't care about you, so tough luck". Inlcuding that attitude towards search engines. It's always nice to know other people are reading and accessing your website. If you don't want it publically available to everyone, then it doesn't belong on the internet. If you're going to put it on the internet, then it's your responsibility as a webdeveloper and author to make it meet certain guidelines so that it can be universally accessed. Otherwise you're splintering the internet, which goes against the very idea of the internet.

I'm not criticizing your friend. I'm saying that if YOU are making this website and you KNOW that there is a better way, then to not use it is irresponsible, and counter-productive. That is my personal oppinion, but I'm very much a proponent of web accessibility. Remember, screens are just one method of communicating information.

Edit: Just caught your last post. There are many free hosts that offer PHP and MySQL support. You aren't limited by the financial requirments. Not in this case, and as many people here will tell you, Geocities, well, sucks. There are other free hosts with much better options. If time is a constraint, why not consider one of many pre-made blog scripts/CMS. There's little need to reinvent the wheel, other than educational value.

[shanterusan]

<sarcasm>And naturally, I'm far too thick to not have told him that dhtml wasn't the best way?</sarcasm>

Don't waste any of your preaching on me, I will ignore it.

Out of curiosity, without accusing anyone, would any of you egomaniacs have been less condescending if I hadn't made it obvious I was female?

[fredmv]

<sarcasm>And naturally, I'm far too thick to not have told him that dhtml wasn't the best way?</sarcasm>

Don't waste any of your preaching on me, I will ignore it.

Out of curiosity, without accusing anyone, would any of you egomaniacs have been less condescending if I hadn't made it obvious I was female?I wouldn't get too upset. They're just trying to help.

[shanterusan]

It's possible to offer help without being rude and condescending.

Anyway, I won't argue with a mod. :P

[MstrBob]

<sarcasm>And naturally, I'm far too thick to not have told him that dhtml wasn't the best way?</sarcasm>

Don't waste any of your preaching on me, I will ignore it.

Out of curiosity, without accusing anyone, would any of you egomaniacs have been less condescending if I hadn't made it obvious I was female?

Your gender is not a concern of mine, but rather your mind is. Unfortunately, I know from experience not to let clients decide technical issues. Especially ones that think they know what they're talking about, after all, if they knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have hired me. I get the requirements from my client and then I take care of how to get it done. If your friend is getting into web development, then you should be pressing the proper way of doing things. You're only going to make the learning road longer and more treacherous any other way. Sadly, nobody cares about accessibility, it seems, until they're on the receiving end of an inaccessible page.

If you would rather ignore our advice and opinions and insult us, rather either heeding our advice or having a concise counter-argument, then I'll stop wasting both of our times.

[shanterusan]

If you would rather ignore our advice and opinions and insult us, rather either heeding our advice or having a concise counter-argument, then I'll stop wasting both of our times.

I don't consider it advice because you've told me nothing I didn't already know (and I said that). I stated (concisely) why I'm not doing that. If you want my boyfriend to have an entirely server-side scripted blog immediately, are you going to provide the hosting for it? No? Not his fault or mine that he can't afford better at the moment.

[MstrBob]

Like I said, finance is no constraint on server side options. Let's take PHP.

http://www.tripod.lycos.co.uk/
http://t35.com/
http://www.viperhosting.net/
http://www.globalweb.com.ru/

And I'm sure members here could point you to others.

[shanterusan]

Tripod's dodgy. If you'd read my earlier posts you'd know I used Tripod for my own site. I'm well aware free hosting exists. In all my experience so far (which is pretty extensive, whatever patronising dismissal you may come back with), it's free for that reason.

Didn't I say not to waste your "advice" on me and go preach at the newbies instead?

[shanterusan]

I found a solution to my question at http://webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47904

[PeOfEo]

I found a solution to my question at http://webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47904
We tried to give you advice and you ignored it and did something that is completely incorrect. Statistics show that about 10% of the internet does not support javascript. You might not be running a google sized operation here, but 10% is still a good large of your traffic.


one more thought: If we give you advice and it is not exactly what you want to hear, please do not get bent out of shape. We are not here to make others feel bad to make ourselves feel better or anything like that. We are here to help. But when people treat us like dirt it makes us no longer want help others... we get jaded.

[shanterusan]

If I cared about 10% of the internet, I would not be using dhtml for this blog I'm doing. Get over it. It's not your blog. You're not making it, you nor anyone else posting on this topic seem to understand the reasons why I'm doing it this way.

I didn't want your advice at all. I had a specific query, that's it. Nothing to do with what my circumstances are or why I'm stuck using javascript. It might be hard for you to accept that you're not the only person who knows things, but you're going to have to and if you want to feed your ego then offer your patronising "advice" to the idiots who don't know what they're doing. Don't assume everyone's an idiot.

We are not here to make others feel bad to make ourselves feel better or anything like that.
Patronising people makes them feel good about themselves?

We are here to help. But when people treat us like dirt it makes us no longer want help others... we get jaded.
When people who have questions get patronised they get jaded about asking for help.

[the tree]

When people who have questions get patronised they get jaded about asking for help.If you come in asking how to do something that you know to be incorrect, then don't be suprised when you're told so. It is rather difficult not to patronise someone who doesn't want to know the correct awnser and insists on doing things thier way as if they were a toddler.

[shanterusan]

Toddler? It's rather difficult not to insult someone with the logic of one, like yourself, [B]the tree[B]. Did you even read the earlier posts? I did not ask "what is the best way to make a blog". I addressed a statement to someone else about the "incorrect" method they were using. So it's wrong for me to "ask" but not for others to use dhtml when they should be using ss-scripting? Why don't all you idiots go through the other topics and look for other stupid little girls like me to patronise?

[the tree]

You asked how to dynamicaly change the attributes of an iframe when you knew that it was incorrect, obviously the person who was actualy doing this was wrong but that just makes it futile to delve further into it. I wont be going through the forums looking for girls to partronise for these reasons: Plenty of people want questions awnsered, and can take the awnsers. There is no obligation to make your gender obvious, or even to state it.

[toru173]

In my opinion, you guys should leave her alone. It's not her fault her boyfriend is too stubborn to want to have his blog done the easy way, but instead wants to do it clumsily. You also said that it's stupid to script something from scratch unless it's for educational purposes; however, Shanterusan specifically said (and I'm too lazy to quote it properly) that she *was* doing this to educate him. She just wanted to know the answer to her question, not what the 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it is. She even said she wouldn't be able to find it here, but was trying to find it and would share it when she found it (presumably)

I might add, too, that if it's a personal blog who would want to read it? If he's using geocities, 10% of the internet would probably disable his account in under 2 seconds ^_^

And finally - I am that boyfriend. I'm stubborn and stupid, but she's teaching me webauthering from scratch. Is there anything wrong with that? I'd certainly prefer having her to teach me then learning it for myself.

[shanterusan]

@the tree:
I didn't even ask anything on this topic. Read all the posts before you comment. It's amusing to see you trying to justify yourself. Could you make dynamically resizing iframes? It's no one else's business if I want to try to do that, or even why.

@PeOfEo:
The purpose of this forum is to help, right? As you said. So I try to discuss Traffic's question and so my help comes under attack, but no way am I to criticise your "help." Your logic is astoundingly lame and hypocritical.

@everyone:
Why did you all direct your "advice" at me, instead of the person who actually was asking for help? I hope you've all enjoyed making yourselves feel better. Now go help the newbies who need, and possibly even want, your help.

@toru173:
You're not stupid, sweetie. You're trying to learn and that's a good thing.

[js_prof_cons]

Shanterusan specifically said (and I'm too lazy to quote it properly) that she *was* doing this to educate him ... [S]he's teaching me webauthering from scratch. Is there anything wrong with that? I'd certainly prefer having her to teach me then learning it for myself.As prof suggests, I am a professor, and I've never, ever, bothered to teach any students incorrectly then fix it. I always do it right the first time. There is something wrong, as I just pointed out. There is no use in learning the wrong way to do something. DHTML has plenmty of uses. Blogs is not, never was, nor ever will be one of them. Server side scripting like PHP and ASP are designed for blogs. You can have her teach you, but you'll have to accept you are being taught incorrectly.

[This is not meant to sound as an attack, nor offensive to anyone]

[shanterusan]

*sighs*

How much clearer can I make this? I'm teaching him dhtml. I'm using his blog to teach him how dhtml itself works. It is a learning exercise. Shouldn't a professor understand what learning is? Are you the typical kind of teacher who thinks that all there is to learning is prepping students on what the assessment contains? You're saying toru isn't allowed to learn dhtml because it's not on your curriculum....

[toru173]

Yes, you're right. Blogging is not the best way to teach dhtml and She dutifully pointed that out to me (many times). It is, however, the way I chose - mostly based on the fact that I had one active webpage at the time. It wasn't her decision, so please don't criticise her for having to put up with it.

You pointed out that PHP and ASP were proper blogging tools: my blog was originally a giant text file I would update from time to time, with no html. it's slowly grown to be more complicated, and I want to learn as much web-authering as I can from it, no matter how inappropriate it is for the task. It is, after all, just a webpage.

[MstrBob]

You've gotten very defensive now. Understand that we are not personally attacking you. We were pointing out the better and preferred method of making websites. I know at least I won't condone the improper methods when you know better. This isn't a matter of ignorance, which is why I'm being persistant here. Do realize that there are better ways to learn what it is you want to learn (I personally detest the term DHTML; you're learning Javascript and, I asssume, the DOM?). Realize that the best way to learn a tool, is by working on a project where that tool is appropriate. If I want to learn to use a knife, I'll practice cutting apples, and I won't attempt to cut down a tree with it. Yeah, I might be able to eventually. But in the end, what have I learned? Not how to cut objects with a knife, but how to abuse the knife enough so that I can cut down a tree.

Also, note that I never said that scripting from scratch is always stupid unless it's educational. I pointed out that there's an abundnace of blog systems already out their, with a vast array of features. There's no real need for one to make their own except educational value. The reason I suggested it, was because I got the impression that you were a bit impatient about getting it up.

Allow me to reiterate. You will get the maximum educational value by applying your tool to a task which is properly suited for the tool. If you set out to do something, say, make a Javascript drop-down menu, or create a script that validates information in a form, or a myriad of optional, client-side tasks, which is what you should be using Javascript for, then you'll learn.

I'm by no means saying not to learn Javascript. I have a soft spot for Javascript, as it's the first scripting I learned. We're saying learn properly. Going down this road just confuses things and will lengthen your road. And if your website IS on the internet, then it is public. Geocities or not, it is your responsibility as a webauthor to make it as accessible as possible. If you aren't willing to make your page conform to accessibility laws, guidlines, and common practices, then perhaps web development isn't the field for you. Being a webdeveloper is more than making pretty pages.

[js_prof_cons]

You've gotten very defensive now. Understand that we are not personally attacking you. We were pointing out the better and preferred method of making websites. I know at least I won't condone the improper methods when you know better. This isn't a matter of ignorance, which is why I'm being persistant here. Do realize that there are better ways to learn what it is you want to learn (I personally detest the term DHTML; you're learning Javascript and, I asssume, the DOM?). Realize that the best way to learn a tool, is by working on a project where that tool is appropriate. If I want to learn to use a knife, I'll practice cutting apples, and I won't attempt to cut down a tree with it. Yeah, I might be able to eventually. But in the end, what have I learned? Not how to cut objects with a knife, but how to abuse the knife enough so that I can cut down a tree.

Also, note that I never said that scripting from scratch is always stupid unless it's educational. I pointed out that there's an abundnace of blog systems already out their, with a vast array of features. There's no real need for one to make their own except educational value. The reason I suggested it, was because I got the impression that you were a bit impatient about getting it up.

Allow me to reiterate. You will get the maximum educational value by applying your tool to a task which is properly suited for the tool. If you set out to do something, say, make a Javascript drop-down menu, or create a script that validates information in a form, or a myriad of optional, client-side tasks, which is what you should be using Javascript for, then you'll learn.

I'm by no means saying not to learn Javascript. I have a soft spot for Javascript, as it's the first scripting I learned. We're saying learn properly. Going down this road just confuses things and will lengthen your road. And if your website IS on the internet, then it is public. Geocities or not, it is your responsibility as a webauthor to make it as accessible as possible. If you aren't willing to make your page conform to accessibility laws, guidlines, and common practices, then perhaps web development isn't the field for you. Being a webdeveloper is more than making pretty pages.Thank you for saving my times, and my feeble hands from typing. ditto

[shanterusan]

Is it really necessary to quote 4 paragraphs when a simple "I agree with _" would suffice?

I don't care what anyone else thinks of my teaching methods. I don't care about your idea of "responsibility as a web author." It's none of your ****ing business.

I made it very clear I know what the preferred way is. I made my reasons for not following it in this instance very clear. It's not my problem if you can't accept someone else has a perfectly sensible reason for not doing things your way.

[shanterusan]

If you aren't willing to make your page conform to accessibility laws, guidlines, and common practices, then perhaps web development isn't the field for you. Being a webdeveloper is more than making pretty pages.
Maybe posting on help forums isn't for you if you can neither read nor comprehend basic sentences, like the ones in all my posts. Didn't I ask you to save the patronising for the newbies who don't know better?

[js_prof_cons]

It's not my problem if you can't accept someone else has a perfectly sensible reason for not doing things your way.I'm sorry. I believe I forget this perfectly sensible reason. In all my years of teaching, I never had a good reason for doing something wrong.

[js_prof_cons]

Maybe posting on help forums isn't for you if you can neither read nor comprehend basic sentences, like the ones in all my posts. Didn't I ask you to save the patronising for the newbies who don't know better?I will reply for Bob, as we are both coming from the same end. Users who think they know everything often get wrong impressions. Both he and I want to correct those wrong impressions.

[shanterusan]

I'm sorry. I believe I forget this perfectly sensible reason. In all my years of teaching, I never had a good reason for doing something wrong.
Like most teachers you're too damn narrow minded to accept people do not have to follow your method. I'm glad I wasn't burdened with teachers like you at school.

Users who think they no everything often get wrong impressions.
I never said I thought I knew everything. You and certain others believe you do. Why not correct your own impressions and open your minds and not preach at people who don't need your help?

[js_prof_cons]

Like most teachers you're too damn narrow minded to accept people do not have to follow your method. I'm glad I wasn't burdened with teachers like you at school.

I never said I thought I knew everything. You and certain others believe you do. Why not correct your own impressions and open your minds and not preach at people who don't need your help?I'm glad I don't have students like you. That's really all I can say. I can make my students do everything right, being I have the power of the pen, but online, I can only suggest. I can't stop you from doing it wrong. "I'm glad I don't have students like you."

[shanterusan]

I'm glad I don't have students like you. That's really all I can say. I can make my students do everything right, being I have the power of the pen, but online, I can only suggest. I can't stop you from doing it wrong. "I'm glad I don't have students like you."
You don't get it! You clearly don't understand the difference between "learning" and "being brainwashed."

[MstrBob]

Did you stop yet to realize why we're being so persistant here? This is a web developer forum, on which we commonly help each other. We are trying to help you, though it's quite obvious that you don't want any help. You seem to dismiss any advice I offer on the grounds that you aren't a "newbie". That is narrowminded. No one knows everything, and to dismiss what I say simply because you believe you know all there is to know is inane. Many times, I've learned from those less experienced then myself. This is the Internet. Technology moves at an astoundingly fast pace, what was true a few years ago might no longer apply. A webdeveloper can not block out everything because they think they know the subject.

I'm not saying I'm all-knowing. I'll freely admit I'm not. But many minds, who know far more than me, have thought up the laws, guidelines, and practices I follow, and have provide ample, logical reasons for following it. I've heard what you said, and to me it doesn't seem like you've put much thought into it, except that you want at this point to very much be right and me to very much be wrong. That's the point where you need to stop, and seriously listen to what the other person is saying. I at one point refused to have anything to do with standards and compliance and CSS, I KNEW HTML and I KNEW Javascript, and I don't need you pretentious people smirking and telling me that I'm wrong. But I realized, after reading and thinking about it, that I was NOT using the best methods, and that I still had much to learn, and the only way I'll survive as a web developer is to continue learning.

Edit: If you consider it brainwashing, then give provide a clear argument as to why it's okay to use client-side scripting over server-side scripting for this educational project, instead of condeming everything we say.

[shanterusan]

We are trying to help you, though it's quite obvious that you don't want any help.
Quite obvious? I said I wasn't asking for help.

No one knows everything, and to dismiss what I say simply because you believe you know all there is to know is inane.
I said I don't know everything.

I'm not saying I'm all-knowing. I'll freely admit I'm not.
Yay, at least there's one person "helping" me who's realistic. (That's not sarcastic.)

I've heard what you said, and to me it doesn't seem like you've put much thought into it, except that you want at this point to very much be right and me to very much be wrong.
You're not wrong in your advice about standards. I understand that. I know that the particular website I am working on is not in accordance with accessibility standards. But I don't care about that in this case because as I said, it is a learning exercise for someone else. An exercise not in accessibilty, as that professor seems to think, but an exercise in dynamic html. Is toru going to learn everything about dhtml itself, if I can't show him because the resulting site would be "inaccessible"? I shouldn't have to justify myself on this point.

That's the point where you need to stop, and seriously listen to what the other person is saying. I at one point refused to have anything to do with standards and compliance and CSS, I KNEW HTML and I KNEW Javascript, and I don't need you pretentious people smirking and telling me that I'm wrong. But I realized, after reading and thinking about it, that I was NOT using the best methods, and that I still had much to learn, and the only way I'll survive as a web developer is to continue learning.
You know, I do realise the importance of standards and compliance. I know they need to be taken seriously. I wouldn't be refusing to listen if I had asked for how to make this website accessible, but that's not what I asked, it's not what I need to know at this very instant in time, and my concern at this instant in time is to teach toru dhtml, and then make a better website for him afterwards. If I make a totally accessible website for him straight off, he won't learn dhtml as thoroughly as he is through this method.

If you consider it brainwashing, then give provide a clear argument as to why it's okay to use client-side scripting over server-side scripting for this educational project, instead of condeming everything we say.
Um, I did. This is for a personal website being used to teach someone dhtml. That's all there is to it.

[MstrBob]

If you're going to be teaching them, then teach properly. That has been my point. Javascript can be accessible, if used properly. As I said before, the best method of teaching is teaching when and how to properly use the tool. Show how to use dynamic webpages with something that properly requires it. By this, what are you teaching? You're teaching how to abuse the tool.

[shanterusan]

No, I'm currently teaching him how to fully manipulate Javascript. I did point out that I've told him (and he acknowledged too) this does not make an accessible website. What good is it teaching him just a few things Javascript can do? When he starts making his own scripts, he'd only have a limited knowledge of methods. That means thinking of how to get Javascript to do what he wants (within standards, of course) will be tougher.

When I started learning Javascript I took a very passive approach and that's not an effective approach to take to learning anything.

[MstrBob]

But teaching him how to create things that aren't compliant to standards, simply means that he also has to learn standards and accessibility after already developing methods that conflict. I can't see why you won't create things that follow accessibility guidlines. My earlier posts were longer, because based upon your attitude, you gave off the impression of being very passive about accessibility. I see your point now, but I still disagree with it. I'd much rather learn the correct way first. This doesn't mean limiting what Javascript can do. I've created complex scripts, testing my knowledge of Javascript that were accessible and standards compliant. In fact, he'll learn most by creating scripts that enhance an existing page, via the DOM, which is how you can most effectively use Javascript.

[js_prof_cons]

You guys (guy and girl) type to quickly. How am I suppose to prove a point when you guys are typing so fast!?

[MstrBob]

You guys (guy and girl) type to quickly. How am I suppose to prove a point when you guys are typing so fast!?

Spend a few years with the majority of your time in front of a computer, and you'll type fast as well. :p :D

[js_prof_cons]

Spend a few years with the majority of your time in front of a computer, and you'll type fast as well. :p :D I have in my profession. I just never bothered to perfect my keyboarding skills, which I now regret.

[shanterusan]

But teaching him how to create things that aren't compliant to standards, simply means that he also has to learn standards and accessibility after already developing methods that conflict.

He has to learn both dhtml and standards/accessibility, right? Does it really matter when he learns each, and whether he learns them together or separately, as long as he learns them? If it suits him to learn Javascript first, why can't he?

I can't see why you won't create things that follow accessibility guidlines.
Because in this particular case, he just wants to learn dhtml first. That's all. Sure it'd be a problem if he wanted such an inaccessible website in the long term, but he doesn't.

[MstrBob]

He has to learn both dhtml and standards/accessibility, right? Does it really matter when he learns each, and whether he learns them together or separately, as long as he learns them? If it suits him to learn Javascript first, why can't he?


Because in this particular case, he just wants to learn dhtml first. That's all. Sure it'd be a problem if he wanted such an inaccessible website in the long term, but he doesn't.

I'm saying that in teaching him Javascript, teach Javascript that complies to accessibility guidelines. I don't see how that doesn't make sense, because why learn how to do something that he won't be doing? Why learn how to make inaccessible things, when he's going to be making accessible things. Instead, focus on compliant javascript, and teach the various methods for creating accessible scripts, instead of just doing whatever he wants with it.

[toru173]

Hi all, just like to contribute some things here (again). MstrBob, I'd like to refer to your apple-knife-tree analogy. The first thing I did (as a child) when I got my brand new swiss army knife was not go chop up some apple,s but go out in the backyard and remove a thick branch that was stopping my from extending my treehouse. I _did_ use the knife to chop down a tree. I believe that you learn by testing the limits of your tools, not by playing only within the guidelines. If this would be the case then there would be no room for innovation. If people do things their own way first the enjoy it, then they can improve on their skills and start to take into consideration practises and guidelines that others say will result in a more 'efficient' webpage. I learned, for example, that you can cut a branch with a radius slightly less then the length of your blade if you work the blade around - this may not be very useful knowledge, but it's something that I know because I tried it. Not many people would have, so not many people would know.

When it comes to web developement there is no 'right' way to do something. There are good practises and guidlines that many people follow, but they won't let you investigate new things. How is one to learn when one isn't given the chance to experiment? I understand that learning from a teacher is different from learning by yourself, but do you really think that none of your students don't try other ways? They may find that the way you taught is better (in the long run), but that doesn't mean they like that method the most, or that they feel the most comfortable with it.

Sure, it's best if everyone uses the 'right' tools for the 'right' job, but wheres the fun in that? Why is it such a crime to test the limits of the tools, rather then simply following the herd? We (Shanterusan and I) both understand that dhtml is not the most appropriate method of completing this task, but why can't we use it? It's a learning experience, I'm learning dhtml, I'm testing the limits of my tools. We're trying to make something do what it wasn't designed to. We're innovating. We may be creating a huge mess at the same time, but I know that I, at least, am learning. I'll be able to apply the techniques I use here - the coding structures and the methods that I learn - to their 'proper' place. I'll have learnt them, but learnt them the way I wanted to.

I'm sure you know all about the best learning methods (being teachers and whatnot) but you should also know (by the same reasoning) that not everyone learns the same way. I enjoy the Chinese proverb (I think it's Chinese) that states: "Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I may remember. Involve me, and I will understand." I learn by discovering things for myself. If you would have all your students simply follow the plan you set out for them, the students who learn like myself would not be able to absorb as much knowledge as they might otherwise be able to.

That's just me. I learn by doing, by testing the limits of my tools. So what if I use those tools for purposes they weren't designed for, I'm learning. That's all that matters to me, and to Shanterusan. Yes, this may be the 'wrong' way according to you, but to us it's just another way to do it. It may be clumsy and not hte prefered way, but it still works. It does (or it will) do what it's supposed to, even if we are using the knife to cut down the tree.

[js_prof_cons]

Sure, it's best if everyone uses the 'right' tools for the 'right' job, but wheres the fun in that? Why is it such a crime to test the limits of the tools, rather then simply following the herd? I won't reply to the whole thing in general, but I will note a small portion. In my career, I never had "fun" doing something the wrong way. Also, testing the limits would mean something that dhtml would be useful for. I'm not sure if its just me, but how on earth do you plan to create a blog using dhtml alone. Maybe that's the bigger question over all this we've vbeen chatting about that's accomplished nothing.

[toru173]

You seem to have forgotten. The blog was first a giant text file (I would re-upload the whole thing when I 'updated' it) and at the moment it's html. It's a job, you can use any tools for it. Some work better then others. It's like someone who can't find the right screwdriver, so they use the next best one instead.

It works pretty well, but it's hard work (or harder work then a PHP blog, for example) to update.

You mentioned that you've never had "fun" doing something the wrong way. Haven't you ever tried to experiment? Never thought "I'll do it this way, because I want to do it this way. I don't care if I'm not supposed to"? No offense, but you seem boring. I know that you have a set way of doing things, and it works for you. Your way isn't my way - I like doing things the way I want to, and then learning from any mistakes I made. It may not be the best way, but it's my way. I did it. I know what's happening, because I did it my way. I can then apply what I've learned to more appropriate situations.

Anything could be a blog, a blog is just like a diary. You could keep a written diary in a book and simply scan and upload the pages each day. You seem to have been caught in the mindset of what a blog is, without considering he essence of it. It's a way for people to reveal what they think or feel to the internet community, and they can do that any way they want to. You don't need PHP, ASP, HTML or even text - a video blog with all the entries labled by date in an ftp folder would work. Sure, it's not very 'accesable', but it's they way the blogger wants it to be.

[js_prof_cons]

Boring? Pretty much. Once you marry and have a job, your schedule gets boring. Enjoy your younger years while you can, as you'll do different things everyday. Once you get old, you seem to have deja vu a lot. No sarcasm intended, it's completely true.

[toru173]

I didn't mean to offend, sorry. To me, everyone who are set in their ways are boring - marrying and growing up can do that to you, I guess, but it doesn't have to. There are many many people with careers and marriages that are willing to try new things, and enjoy life - take Richard Branson, for example. Even though he has far more money then I ever will, he still has the personailty, the 'youth at heart' that I'd like to say I have. Thankyou for the advice you gave, I'll keep it in mind if I ever need to create more public pages.

Even though you may grow older, you don't have to lose your youth.

[js_prof_cons]

Even though you may grow older, you don't have to lose your youth.There are differences between normal people and celebrities and similar. I'll take my life over a celebrities any day. I do just what I want, and enjoy life. I took no offense, by the way.

[phpnovice]

To me, everyone who are set in their ways are boring ...
You were just a bit too specific there. :D You could put just about any derogatory adjective there in place of the red text. I guess you could say that people who are set in their ways are a pet peeve of mine. :p

I will be 50 this year, I'm married, been doing the same kind of job for the last 26+ years (programming), and my life is anything BUT boring (or any other derogatory adjective). ;)

Caveat Emptor: I'm making no judgements about any person or persons having posted in this thread. I haven't been following this thread, so my comments are just that -- comments.

[MstrBob]

I'm not stifiling innovation. Unfortunately it seems people think they are limited by accessibility, which is not the case. Creating effects and scripts that are useful and accessible is still a relatively untested field. There's plenty of room left for innovation, but abusing Javascript is not part of it. Encouraging the use of Javascript for what you intend doesn't make any sense. There's innovating and testing, and then there is abusing. Focus your energies and exercises in the useful, accessible, compliant side of Javascript and you will learn more than trying to make it do something its not supposed to do. Javascript has been around for years, and many people have done many different things with it. I speak from experience in telling you that making Javascript neccessary to utilize a website is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's only a personal website or not. Unless you are physically limiting who can access it, properly use Javascript.

[js_prof_cons]

I'm not stifiling innovation. Unfortunately it seems people think they are limited by accessibility, which is not the case. Creating effects and scripts that are useful and accessible is still a relatively untested field. There's plenty of room left for innovation, but abusing Javascript is not part of it. Encouraging the use of Javascript for what you intend doesn't make any sense. There's innovating and testing, and then there is abusing. Focus your energies and exercises in the useful, accessible, compliant side of Javascript and you will learn more than trying to make it do something its not supposed to do. Javascript has been around for years, and many people have done many different things with it. I speak from experience in telling you that making Javascript neccessary to utilize a website is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's only a personal website or not. Unless you are physically limiting who can access it, properly use Javascript.Bob, I've given up. We both tried, but we probably have to accept that no matter what we do, its going to be done with JavaScript first [only God knows why] and then PHP. Oh well

As for the boring. I've been a bit too vague I've noticed. Really vague. I'm only referring to boring because everyone really does the same thing, day after day. You go to your job, every day, come home the same time everyday, etc. I find it boring. I enjoy doing it, because I have a very interesting job. So maybe just schedules get boring. Then again, maybe if you program at home, like I get the interpretation from phpnovice, there is no boring schedule.

[MstrBob]

Hmm, you're probably right. There comes a point where both sides of an argument have been presented, and neither will give in. At which point it's most likely best just to accept that we won't see eye to eye on this issue. I've presented my opinion and advice on the matter, I can only leave it at that.

[shanterusan]

You're entitled to have your definitions of "properly" and "abusing," MstrBob, but give up the arguing. It won't stop me using dhtml as I choose to for learning and experimenting purposes. Just get over the fact that someone (quite reasonably) doesn't agree with you.

[js_prof_cons]

You're entitled to have your definitions of "properly" and "abusing," MstrBob, but give up the arguing. It won't stop me using dhtml as I choose to for learning and experimenting purposes. Just get over the fact that someone (quite reasonably) doesn't agree with you.It looks to me that both of us have decided to stop arguing. Why do you insist on continuing. I completely agree with him, and years of programming in both languages back that. We are done arguing, can you jut stop too?

[shanterusan]

Bob, I've given up. We both tried, but we probably have to accept that no matter what we do, its going to be done with JavaScript first [only God knows why] and then PHP. Oh well
It'd be more apparent why it's going to be done with Javascript if one could think outside their own very limited mindset. You're right, no matter what you say I'll be doing this site the way I've chosen. It's absolutely none of your business how or why I'm doing it.

[shanterusan]

It looks to me that both of us have decided to stop arguing. Why do you insist on continuing. I completely agree with him, and years of programming in both languages back that. We are done arguing, can you jut stop too?
I laugh. You lot started the argument, and now you're giving up your preaching because you finally worked out I'm not interested. Well done.

Incidentally, my browser didn't show the posts in which you decided to stop arguing until after I typed my last two. If the posts had shown up, I daresay I could have read them perfectly. Unlike other people here, I can read.

[phpnovice]

I speak from experience in telling you that making Javascript neccessary to utilize a website is wrong.
I disagree with that statement (any surprise there?).

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, can tell me how or with what to code my website. Period. The government "has to" for their websites -- that is what that favorite little Section thingamabob is all about that certain people like to erroneously and flatulently use as a sledge-hammer and pitchfork on the innocents that happen to visit this site. Corporations, etc., "have to" -- in order to maintain their public persona. But I DON'T "have to". I can do what I want and NOBODY can tell me different.

People that like to bludgeon others with their "accessibility" propaganda give the disabled a really bad rap -- I speak from experience. I can tell you that the disabled don't like what those kind of people are doing. The disabled don't want (or need) that kind of negative notoriety.

I could give several paragraphs of explanations in support of this but, from experience, I know there are too many closed minds at this site to want to listen or understand. They will be the ones flaming me for this post. Just watch. :p

[shanterusan]

phpnovice, doesn't it suck being flamed? It's good to see there's open minded people out there, though. Congrats on having your say without fear.

[phpnovice]

Then again, maybe if you program at home, like I get the interpretation from phpnovice, there is no boring schedule.
Actually, I do both... I get up at 8am, do the 10am to 6pm programming job as an employee, come home and keep programming for my own clients until about midnight, then go to bed. Yep, it's a routine -- but not a boring routine. :)

[MstrBob]

You're right in that nobody can dictate how a site is to be made. I'm not trying to do that, I'm presenting my opinion and advice. That's the point of a forum such as this, to exchange opinions, ideas, advice and help. For a while, I browsed around with Javascript disabled because I couldn't take all the sites harassing me with scripts. The fact that some websites wouldn't allow me to get past the front page because I chose to not utilize scripting was insulting to me. I'm not saying to never use Javascript, I'm simply saying think about what your using it for and ask yourself is there a better way.

I don't know why I keep this up, none of us will budge, there must be something wrong with me. Can't keep away from debates lately, I guess.

[phpnovice]

I'm not saying to never use Javascript, I'm simply saying think about what your using it for and ask yourself is there a better way.
Well, programmers can be a pretty independent lot. :D At any rate... The part of your statement I quoted is a pretty reasonable statement. The part I didn't like previously was the use of the word "wrong". To me, that carries the connotation of a strong condemnation. However, one could still get picky about the part I quoted -- as if JavaScript weren't a "better" way already. ;)

Mind you... I'm not saying that JavaScript is the do all and the end all. :rolleyes:

[shanterusan]

Nothing is the do all and end all. But there are options and people shouldn't be condemned for their choice.

[js_prof_cons]

I think just a clarification for phpnovice might be in order. Neither Bob nor myself (well at least me) intended to put down JavaScript at all. It is a great language, and I too use it as I wish, without following the Section 508 policy (http://section508.gov). All our arguments so far really are just remarking that JavaScript should not be used for this task, when PHP or ASP.

I still don't understand how you'll make a blog in JavaScript. Unless you plan to update the code everytime you have an entry. You can make PHP do that. Or ASP or Perl, etc.