Age Appropriate Reviews

[crh3675]

I have been developing website and web applications for over 10 years. I have quite a bit of experience in the working field as a professional. I do not agree with "newbie's" or younger persons critiquing websites. Immature users of this forum tend to post immature responses. If you feel that you are qualified to offer an educated and professional response to a web design besides "it sucks", then please offer your words of wisdom. Otherwise, keep your obnoxious comments to yourselves.

For all those who want to have their site reviewed please visit the W3C (http://www.w3c.org) website and VALIDATE your code.

[Vladdy]

And in your professional opinion what is a good description of this piece of code:
:rolleyes: <div align="left"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1" color="#333333">&nbsp;<a href="crystal_cruises.htm">Details</a></font><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="0.5px" color="#333333">
<b>»</b></font> </div>

</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>&amp;nbsp;</td>
<td>&amp;nbsp;</td>
<td>&amp;nbsp;</td>

</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>

</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>

[Daniel T]

Originally posted by crh3675
I do not agree with "newbie's" or younger persons critiquing websites.
I somewhat agree with the newbies part, but I do not agree that youngin's should not critique sites. Who says you have to be of a certain age to know a thing or two about web design?
-Dan

[crh3675]

That is poorly written invalid code for so many reasons. All of which can be found on the web. I have learned through trial and error and lifetime experience and so can these terrible coders.

When people come to this section and ask "How's my website?", they don't realize that we as programmers are looking at the code and not the colors.

Have you ever seen a post that asks "How does my code look?" No, because that is not what they are expecting to get a response about. I think we should close this section of the forum because not a single decently coded website has ever passed through here.

[Daniel T]

Originally posted by crh3675
I think we should close this section of the forum because not a single decently coded website has ever passed through here.
I don't think that's a very good reason to close a forum. The point of these forums is to help web developers. If every site that came through here was perfectly valid and looked extremely attractive, then this forum wouldn't really be serving it's purpose, which is to comment on how people can imporve their sites. That is why most people get their site reviewed in the first place, to get suggestions or ideas on what they can do to make it better. Just my 2¢,
-Dan

[crh3675]

Who says you have to be of a certain age to know a thing or two about web design?


It's not necessarily the age that I talked about if you read my post, it's the maturity level of the person posting


The point of these forums is to help web developers


I help many developers with code snippets and ideas of how to make things work. The people posting in this section only want an ego-boost or re-assurance that ther site "is cool". I have spent mass amounts of time reading and working hard to get to where I am today with my skills. If these "web designers" want help, ask for it before you mangle a website. In other words, "learn your trade before trying to apply it." That's what many of us went to college for.

This forum needs a section called "Newbies"

[pyro]

Originally posted by crh3675
I think we should close this section of the forum because not a single decently coded website has ever passed through here. I'm about ready to post my latest work for critique. Not to be a pompous ass, but you'll see a "decently coded website" when that's up for review.

[crh3675]

That would be a refresher! :)

[Vladdy]

Originally posted by crh3675
That is poorly written invalid code for so many reasons. All of which can be found on the web. <snip />
So summing it up.... it sucks.... ;)

[crh3675]

Maybe I just get tired of helping those that need more than just "a little help". I offer coding help and then the person responds back asking "so what does that mean and how do I use it". I hate having to explain what I believe is "boiler-plate" for web development.

[davidbrent]

Hello All.

I think you should class the validity of a review of a website based on the reviewers maturity levels. A review from anybody is a worthwhile review as someone offering their opinion can always be helpful.

I dont think that just because people may not understand the art of coding and technical validity, that they will not put forward a true opinion.

I.e: If i was designing a site and a 10year old told me it looks ugly then i would consider this comment just as much as a 34year old proffessional web developer.

I do agree the web deservers a better view on coding and making sites accessible and valid, but the web is slowly moving in this direction. Personally i think all the css fluent webblogs are guiding it there.

David

[Sam]

Originally posted by crh3675
I think we should close this section of the forum because not a single decently coded website has ever passed through here.
I'd like to think mine (http://forums.webdeveloper.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33554) was decent to say the least, and Vladdy's (http://forums.webdeveloper.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33657) was entirely solid coding.

On a side note, I think that we should have a sticky saying don't ask for a review if your code isn't valid.

[davidbrent]

Originally posted by samij586
On a side note, I think that we should have a sticky saying don't ask for a review if your code isn't valid.

But why? Surely by reviewing their site and pointing them in the direction is much better than just telling them to come back when they have learnt how to code properly.
Giving them helpful comments and suggestions is much better than scaring them about the technical side of web development. They have to be encouraged to design and code properly, rather than bullied into fitting the higher standard.

I know when i first started it was about how it looked. Enocuraging comments about my designs encouraged me to progress wherei learnt more about validity and accessibility.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by davidbrent
Hello All.

I think you should class the validity of a review of a website based on the reviewers maturity levels. A review from anybody is a worthwhile review as someone offering their opinion can always be helpful.

I dont think that just because people may not understand the art of coding and technical validity, that they will not put forward a true opinion.

I.e: If i was designing a site and a 10year old told me it looks ugly then i would consider this comment just as much as a 34year old proffessional web developer.

I do agree the web deservers a better view on coding and making sites accessible and valid, but the web is slowly moving in this direction. Personally i think all the css fluent webblogs are guiding it there.

David sadly opinions are not taken seriously by younger people even if they know what they are talking about by most people. Fred and I were having a conversation, a long while ago, and I asked him how old he was, and found out he was as old as me, 16. We aggreed that many of the web "professionals" are not professional in the least bit, examples:
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.cnn.com/
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2F&doctype=%28detect+automatically%29&charset=iso-8859-1+%28Western+Europe%29&verbose=1
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.msnbc.msn.com/
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//abcnews.go.com/
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//news.bbc.co.uk/
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
this is what the validator thinks of some of the major news sources (aljazeera was thrown in to be funny). Tell the web developers there they are not professional and they would have a cow, after all they are getting a hefty pay check and 'know' what they are doing. But they sure do not act like it with markup like that. Count how many actually bothered to use a doc type. Now if someone that is working on colledge credits, someone not even old enough to drink yet, tells them they are unprofessional, they would piss and moan and ignore the advice.

[crh3675]

I feel like an old fart in this forum. I am 29. I have been doing web development for many years. Imagine being there from pretty much the start of the web and having to go back and "fix" all of your code. I used to code in HTML 2.0 and 3.2 for Netscape 2 and 3.
There was no such thing as "valid" code or the right way. IE came out with version 4 which had more "options" as they were called. There was no need for compliance. Making the transition from HTML 2 through XHTML 1.1 is a big leap for many developers (believe it or not).

So, when all of you teenages who are in high school are developing your websites in your spare time, understand that developers like myself (married, full-time, with family) don't have the extensive amount of time to always develop in compliance. I spend most of my time developing many. many projects. Some of which are meant to function strictly in IE as web applications. Many of our clients want their websites viewable in Netscape 4.x. So, with all of that said, I cannot always develop in compliance with the W3C recommendation.

So, I take back what I said about "validate your code" in the first post because in the grand scale of things, our clients create the market for which we work in. We adapt to their needs.

How would you explain to a client, "Sorry, we can't develop your website to work in Netscape 4.x because we develop in XHTML 1.0 Transitional and the code will not validate"

[Vladdy]

Originally posted by crh3675
I feel like an old fart in this forum. I am 29.
<snip />

How would you explain to a client, "Sorry, we can't develop your website to work in Netscape 4.x because we develop in XHTML 1.0 Transitional and the code will not validate"
Don't worry, I'm older :p
The answer to your last question is in my sig.
BTW, I would never understand what is the purpose of XHTML Transitional, it's like taking an F1 Car and putting roman chariot wheels on it :rolleyes:

[crh3675]

I need to stick with you Vladdy! :D

[spufi]

I think one of things I would change is the links like "Want a website but don't know where to start?" shouldn't be links, or at least get rid of the underline they have under them.

[crh3675]

I think one of things I would change is the links like "Want a website but don't know where to start?"


I am not asking anyone for their opinion on our company website. We are also undergiong a major overhaul with new new marketing methods. I am aware of the flaws of our website. Hopefully when we are not working on client sites, we can focus on a redesign.

[RedLooney]

Originally posted by crh3675
In other words, "learn your trade before trying to apply it."

I don't know about anyone else, but I learn a great deal from trial and error. If I pay for hosting space and a domain name, I'm going to put up what I want, and edit it as I learn more and more. Just for the record, I've never submitted a site for review though.

[crh3675]

I learn a great deal from trial and error but I am definitely not going to try to apply something that I am still learning for a paying client. Please also remember folks, I am talking about people that PAY FOR WORK. My time is money and a client is not going to pay for my "education" on learning a new language for their website. As well, they should not have to pay for a "novice" solution because I am still learning. I take great pride in my work and provide the best solutions for our clients. The solution I develop for them is a direct reflection of myself and if I give them a sub-standard product, all I'm going to be doing is degrading my reputation.

[spufi]

Originally posted by crh3675
That is poorly written invalid code for so many reasons. All of which can be found on the web. I have learned through trial and error and lifetime experience and so can these terrible coders.

When people come to this section and ask "How's my website?", they don't realize that we as programmers are looking at the code and not the colors.

Have you ever seen a post that asks "How does my code look?" No, because that is not what they are expecting to get a response about. I think we should close this section of the forum because not a single decently coded website has ever passed through here.

In all honesty even so-called really cool looking sites to me are not something I get all that excited about these days. I check out enough sites that post high quality stuff to where it's going to take A LOT for me to really stand up and say "Wow!" If a person could kick out those kind of websites, it's doubtful they would "need" to post here anyway.

[dera]

if somebody went to my website, regardless of their age, and said my side looked boring, i would value there comment. There are allot of young users on this forum, i my self am one of them, these forums have helped me learn about lots of new diffrent things.

Most of the general public which view a majority of sites are not web developers, and do not no anything about creating or how to make a website work, if they are what you call immature then why don’t you want to hear there opinions as they are the majority. Sounds to me like you’re a little bit up your self, I do manage a website on top of school work for the fun of it and i admit that my website is it fully correct (acording to W3C, Code Wise)

There are no policies agreements or conditions that our replies have to be professional, and if people make in accurate comment, that is their problem, you could also reply to them telling them what they said is wrong. If you don’t want immature responses don’t use these forums. You could also start your own forum just for professionals, and people with bias views.

...people make mistakes thats why they have erasers at the back of pencils... -the simpsons

[crh3675]

There are no policies agreements or conditions that our replies have to be professional,


I think that's why I started this thread. :rolleyes:

Here's what I think, if you are confident enough in your skills, you won't need the validation and acceptance from other people. That's like me building a house and then asking another contractor, "Whaddya think?" And he, as a professional comes back and says, "Well, your structure is incorrect, the plumbing goes the wrong way and your foundation is cracked." Then he would say "Why would you start buliding a house without having all of the knowledge necessary to do so?" I would say, "Because I am just learning." And he would say "Would you feel safe in a house like that?"

[PeOfEo]

So, when all of you teenages who are in high school are developing your websites in your spare time ... I cannot always develop in compliance with the W3C recommendation.
Oh please, I have work, ap tests, and everything else and I still find time for it, and I am not doing personal stuff, I have to please clients too. If this is what you do all day, yet I can only do it on the weekends that would mean you have more time for web development. If you are using a style sheet, you can be using divs or tables the thing will break down to a unstyled mode and still be there for browsers that do not support css. For example http://knights.europe.webmatrixhosting.net/hybrid2.html disable css and look at it, I can view it in lynx too, looks just fine. I am doing freelance stuff, and have no time, but it does not take me much more time to do it right the first time and I cannot feel like I am earning this cash If I am giving the client a steaming hunk of crap. I am not saying I think everything needs to be valid xhtml 1.1, but it should be valid something, html 4.01 transitional or strict would be just fine, but if you do not have valid code you might as well not have a doc type right? Either way the browser is in quirks mode. I do think css should be used to matter what though, either to style a table or for a full css layout.
another question: I can see that since you are married and have kids and web dev is your income, then shouldn't that give you all the more incentive to do it right? Like I said it should not take much more time to make it correct, its just a matter of ditching some deprectated attributes, even if you are using a table based layout. I posted that link to a hybrid above, as you can see I just did height widht border, and valid with css, I could also do align and nowrap no problem, colspan and rowspan are still perfectly acceptable, so even if you do not have time to hack a css layout up the ying yang to get that to work it should not take much time at all to get a table based hybrid to validate, I was just clearning up what I mean't by it does not take much longer to make it validate. This post was written in a stream of consciousness, so it has absolutly no flow from thought to thought... sorry about that.