Freelance Work

[tonyh]

Hey guys,

My landlord is trying to convince his boss that his company needs a website. He's also the companies District Manager and holds the companies number 2 position.

He offered me the contract if it's a go.

Other than some intranet and other graphic design I did for an IT company a few years back, this would be considered my first contract.

I know there are existing threads regarding pricing and so forth, but I'm more concerned about his companies clientele. He's told me that "75% of their funding is received from the gov't." When I asked if this meant that the gov't was simply a client or if they are a subsidiary he couldn't say.

I need to know when a company must oblige accessibility laws 508 and the Canadian equivalent?

And if a site must be built accordingly, how does the rate adjust?

The site itself will be static (XHTML & CSS2), without web applications, flash, ect. And I'm guessing less than 30 pages total. Since I cannot consider myself a 'webmaster' and my experience must reflect the rate I told him to get some quotes from local companies. I said I would do my own research as well.

I've seen rate varying here has high as $80USD/hr. Before seeing this I was considering starting at $20CND/hr (approx $15USD/hr), but I'm wondering if that's actually too low. Also, with the above site description, how many hours would it normally take? I was thinking 80, as that would be two full time weeks (8hrs/day). So would be about $1600CDN (approx $1200USD). Would this be about accurate?

He would also prefer a 'lump sum' deal. Meaning the number of hours wouldn't matter, if I complete within 80hrs fine, if I exceed I eat the cost. But, there wouldn't be a deadline, since the the two of us can work together to ensure that the site matches his expectations. Technically the deadline would be September 1st, as it is more or less a favour to me to make some extra money during the summer and aid my resume.

What are your suggestions?

[iniquity101]

Originally posted by tonyh


I need to know when a company must oblige accessibility laws 508 and the Canadian equivalent?


http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/#Canada may help you

[Aronya1]

Just my 2cts.

I always charge by the page. On smaller sites, this usually means that I'm not being paid that much per hour. However, on larger sites, there are usually some basic similarities from page to page, so you can create a template to use over & over. In that case, your development time is greatly reduced, and your hourly pay is increased. The client doesn't need to know that it only took you 15 minutes to knock out a page. On the other hand, especially when you are beginning/learning, it will take you a lot longer to produce that same page, and it can be hard to justify the time spent. Most client's don't feel it's their responsibility to fund your education.

[Robert Wellock]

Myself £500.00 per hour is my starting fee. I expect you'll be asking for 50% of the total budget upfront.

[olaf]

500 BP ???
you mean the first hour in a new project?

[tonyh]

Originally posted by Aronya1
The client doesn't need to know that it only took you 15 minutes to knock out a page. On the other hand, especially when you are beginning/learning, it will take you a lot longer to produce that same page, and it can be hard to justify the time spent.
It's usually not the markup that takes most of my time, it's the graphic design and especially scripting. How would you charge per page? Wouldn't your client be able to cirumvent cost by eliminating the number of pages necessary by grouping content that normally be seperated?

Originally posted by Robert Wellock
Myself £500.00 per hour is my starting fee. I expect you'll be asking for 50% of the total budget upfront.
Uhm, did you miss a decimal place or something? Cause that's around $1200CAD(800USD)/hr....

As for the budget, like I said he wants to pay lump sum all upfront, so this isn't an issue.

[Aronya1]

I usually charge a base rate for static pages. Add for dynamic content or graphic work. You just have to work out what you can live with. There will be sites where you break even, so to speak, but there will also be sites where you will clean up. For me, it tends to even itself out fairly well. Also, there's no time to track for/justify to the client. Bottom line, though, is that it's easy for me. I don't want to be a bookkeeper. If I can't enjoy the process (and I wouldn't if I had to track every minute of my time), then I don't want to do it.

As for them grouping content, I try to educate them from day one on how to sort out what needs its own page & what doesn't. If they want to cram everything on one page, I always have the choice to walk away if I feel it's going to end in disaster. This is also ammunition for the argument that you need contracts that spell out as much as possible about the project.

[Robert Wellock]

You read correctly £500.00 Sterling.

[tonyh]

Originally posted by Robert Wellock
You read correctly £500.00 Sterling.
Dude, who do you have for clients?

What makes your service so spectacular that you can charge that? Because compared to others on this board your rate seems outrageous....

[gianna]

FWIW, I've been doing web design (light scripting, graphic design/layout, business identity, etc) since 1997 freelance and I charge $45/hr. That's more than the "kids" in the area charge but it's significantly less than the professional firms.

I'm also curious as to what kind of clients are willing to pay that much for XHTML work...

-g

[niccobrogi]

I, too, am struggling to find a pattern to follow to decide how much to charge.

I don't understand why it has to be so hard for web designers to get paid. If I tell a client i want to be paid by the hour he starts going crazy that he can't check how many hrs i put into it and won't wanna do it.On the other hand, charging by the page is also pointless.

Some pages will just have text to copy and paste, some will take you hrs to code. Also, the client can make compress the content to have it on fewer pages. I once saw a website done by a company that charges by the page where the client demanded the whole site be on ONE page, with anchor links and no scrollbar to navigate.

Also, some clients will be willing to pay more, and some less.
The best way is probably to go to the client, find out what their budget is, and charge accordingly, with a flat fee.

Any suggestion?

[gianna]

If at all possible, I try my best to do some undercover investigation to figure out what the client's budget is, and then modify my proposal. Sometimes I will suggest that they do some of the work themselves (like taking and resizing pictures, copywriting, etc) to save money.

Usually I don't lower my per-hour price; I try to figure out how I can do it in less hours. I think that helps preserve your reputation, and if the client talks to someone else, s/he doesn't start things off with "I know this website designer, she's really cheap" but with "I know this website designer, she's really good".

[Aronya1]

The only times I lower my rate is if I am doing a favor for a friend, doing work for a fellow member of a professional group, or if I am learning/testing a new technique or technology on the client's site - I give them a break on the price & they cut me some slack for time & experimentation.

niccobrogi
Relatively few potential clients are going to be willing to tell you what their true budget is. What are you going to do if they tell you they have $300, but they want a 15 page site? Tell them what you charge, and let them decide. As far as the client that wants to cram everything on one page, you can always walk away. You won't want to be associated with that page or client anyway.

[mbender]

You might check out this article
http://www.nu-designs.com/article2_pricing_article.html

and for what its worth my pricing model is as follows.

Hourly Rates:
Initial Consultation FREE
Additional Consultation $35.00
HTML / Layout $40.00
Editing / Rewriting $40.00
Graphics Work $50.00
Flash Work $55.00
Scripting / Database $55.00

[niccobrogi]

after reading all the comments, i think the best solution is probably charging by the hour, but still how can the client check how many hrs you put into his/her website? is he/she just going to trust you?
Also, even with experience, it's kind of hard to know in advance how many hrs you'll need to make a site: 1- because clients often make you change stuff around adding work and 2-because sometimes you might encounter obstacles you hadn't planned.
This makes it quite hard to give an estimate to the client.

[Aronya1]

<refer>My 1st 2 replies</refer>

how can the client check how many hrs you put into his/her website? is he/she just going to trust you?
Also, even with experience, it's kind of hard to know in advance how many hrs you'll need to make a site: 1- because clients often make you change stuff around adding work and 2-because sometimes you might encounter obstacles you hadn't planned.
This makes it quite hard to give an estimate to the client.Exactly. So why do it? Unless you want to be an accountant... Of course you could charge the way auto repair shops do; charge for the amount of time a job is supposed to take. If it takes longer, that's your problem. If it doesn't take that much time, your benefit.

[gianna]

The more work you do, the more experienced you become, and the better you get at estimating jobs. Every professional develops a complex model for costing out new jobs, with varying degrees of padding (between 10% and 20% usually) to handle scope creep and unforseeables.

There's a good book out there called "Web ReDesign: Workflow That Works" that lays out an excellent procedure to follow when estimating jobs. The checklists it provides help you think about every aspect of a new project and make sure you build in costs for things that are easy to forget. Sometimes I underbudget and cut myself short. Rarely I overbudget. Sometimes I have clients who require a lot of time spent on the phone or explanations; I charge them for that but throw in a few discounts, which makes them feel like they're getting a deal.

It's been my experience that clients who are obsessive about how many hours you have put into a job are micromanagers and are going to be a problem. That's why I charge by the project, and make clear proposals outlining exactly what I am prepared to do for that money. Once signed, if the client deviates from this plan s/he must again sign for any additional work, which carries with it additional charge.

Instead of scaring clients, I've found that this approach comforts them. It's all very professional and upfront, and they don't feel like they're being taken for a ride.

[shimon]

Originally posted by tonyh
Dude, who do you have for clients?

What makes your service so spectacular that you can charge that? Because compared to others on this board your rate seems outrageous....

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Having wiped the coffee from my monitor, I would also say that, with respect, I also find this rate hard to believe. In my experience a professional web agency with blue chip clients will charge something like £60 - £100 per hour. My last company, for example, would charge £720 per day for backend, and a bit less for just HTML. And looking at your own site Robert, you simply ain't in that league mate.

Still, the 50% before + 50% after thing is pretty standard arrangement.

[tonyh]

Hey,

Could someone offer an attached contract template? Or even a dummy version of an existing contract?

It looks like the client may be a go, but for a later date. So, I thought it may be a good idea to get a head start on stuff like this.

Thanx everyone for your input :) .

[Intensity]

Here is a pretty good sample of a Contract that you can work from.
Example Service Agreement (http://www.intensedevelopment.net/Tampa-Website-Freelancing.html#2)

I personally revised a little of it and compressed the amount it occupies and placed it on a carbon copy 8 1/2 x 14 in.

[buntine]

WHOA!! Thats about $1200 Australian dollars an hour. No agency could possibly charge that much...

1) Your joking; 2) Your company has already gone bankrupt.

Regards.

[anotherGateway]

I personally think charging by a project basis is better, based on number of pages and/or features of websites. It's more accurate and easier to justify for the client.

For example, if you clients needs a normal 5 page website, and also need additional features such as a newsletter subscriptoin component and a livechat component, and also a Flash Intro, you can charge, say.

Static Page ($20/page) x 3
Dynamic Page ($35/page) x 2
Flash Intro(40sec) - $50

Additional Features/Components:
1 newsletter subscription component ($50)
l livechat component ($50)

Webhosting ($7.75/month)
Domain Name Registration ($8.00)

Hope you get the idea.