srimca
02-06-2003, 02:42 AM
how to give blockspace to the left of a paragraph.
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Charles
02-06-2003, 04:19 AM
<p style="margin-left:5em">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.</p>
Magenta
02-06-2003, 02:30 PM
Or you could try using <blockquote> which is quicker but less flexible than setting the margin width yourself. It requires a closing tag </blockquote>. It will also indent from your right hand margin.
Charles
02-06-2003, 03:00 PM
Oddly enough, BLOCKQUOTE doesn't mean "left indent" it means "this text is a block quotation". And you cannot be certain that it will be displayed on a graphical browser with any indentation. And mis-using HTML in that way makes your page inaccesible to persons using Braille and audio browsers.
Magenta
02-07-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Charles
Oddly enough, BLOCKQUOTE doesn't mean "left indent" it means "this text is a block quotation". And you cannot be certain that it will be displayed on a graphical browser with any indentation. And mis-using HTML in that way makes your page inaccesible to persons using Braille and audio browsers.
Well, I did mention that it would be right indented too, Charles but fair enough.
And on "mis-using HTML" - rather depends who you agree with on that score, doesn't it, and whether or not you rate usability above accessibility in some cases. And whether or not you rate the advantage to partially-sighted users of a differentiated block of text that limits line length and doesn't rely on colour contrast over the disadvantage to users of interpretive technologies.
Cheers,
M
Oddly enough, BLOCKQUOTE doesn't mean "left indent" it means "this text is a block quotation". And you cannot be certain that it will be displayed on a graphical browser with any indentation. And mis-using HTML in that way makes your page inaccesible to persons using Braille and audio browsers.
Well, I did mention that it would be right indented too, Charles but fair enough.
And on "mis-using HTML" - rather depends who you agree with on that score, doesn't it, and whether or not you rate usability above accessibility in some cases. And whether or not you rate the advantage to partially-sighted users of a differentiated block of text that limits line length and doesn't rely on colour contrast over the disadvantage to users of interpretive technologies.
Cheers,
M
Stefan
02-07-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Magenta
whether or not you rate usability above accessibility in some cases.
Exactly from were do you get higher "usability" from using an inapropriate tag? :confused:
I would be very interested in hearing that explanation, becuse as I see it usability is not a factor. The two things I see standing agaist each other in regard to using the right tag is ignorance vs accessibility.
whether or not you rate usability above accessibility in some cases.
Exactly from were do you get higher "usability" from using an inapropriate tag? :confused:
I would be very interested in hearing that explanation, becuse as I see it usability is not a factor. The two things I see standing agaist each other in regard to using the right tag is ignorance vs accessibility.
Magenta
02-07-2003, 12:27 PM
"Ignorance versus accessibility"? So where does that leave usability? Accessibility is not necessarily by any means the same thing as usability and the two can work against eachother.
The direct example I gave was that in using blockquote, lines are shortened and that particular area of text stands out clearly. Good for usability. Good for accessibility for partially-sighted users with reasonable vision.
However, it doesn't help users of interpretive technologies. Poor for accessibility. Poor for users with restricted vision.
I'd also quote some guy called Jakob Neilsen on this : "A wall of text is deadly for an interactive experience. Intimidating. Boring. Painful to read. "
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20021223.html
Seems like a nice, usable way of avoiding a wall of text. Nice enough for Jakob to use it himself to highlight some text at the top of his page - text which is not a "block quotation".
The direct example I gave was that in using blockquote, lines are shortened and that particular area of text stands out clearly. Good for usability. Good for accessibility for partially-sighted users with reasonable vision.
However, it doesn't help users of interpretive technologies. Poor for accessibility. Poor for users with restricted vision.
I'd also quote some guy called Jakob Neilsen on this : "A wall of text is deadly for an interactive experience. Intimidating. Boring. Painful to read. "
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20021223.html
Seems like a nice, usable way of avoiding a wall of text. Nice enough for Jakob to use it himself to highlight some text at the top of his page - text which is not a "block quotation".
Stefan
02-08-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Magenta
[B]"Ignorance versus accessibility"? So where does that leave usability? Accessibility is not necessarily by any means the same thing as usability and the two can work against eachother.
Not in my experience. Every time I've seen that argument it was due to ignorance on the webcoders part.
The direct example I gave was that in using blockquote, lines are shortened and that particular area of text stands out clearly.
And that is not acchiveable by using an apropriate tag?
Eg <p style="margin:0 10%;">
Good for usability. Good for accessibility for partially-sighted users with reasonable vision.
But sucks for many others. That's why you shouldn't use it (unless it's really a quote of cource).
The above P would work well for EVERYBODY. Abusing blockquote in this case is the perfect example of ignorance on the webdevelopers part. Using a specific tag only to get a visual effect, not becuse it's the apropriate markup for the content.
[B]"Ignorance versus accessibility"? So where does that leave usability? Accessibility is not necessarily by any means the same thing as usability and the two can work against eachother.
Not in my experience. Every time I've seen that argument it was due to ignorance on the webcoders part.
The direct example I gave was that in using blockquote, lines are shortened and that particular area of text stands out clearly.
And that is not acchiveable by using an apropriate tag?
Eg <p style="margin:0 10%;">
Good for usability. Good for accessibility for partially-sighted users with reasonable vision.
But sucks for many others. That's why you shouldn't use it (unless it's really a quote of cource).
The above P would work well for EVERYBODY. Abusing blockquote in this case is the perfect example of ignorance on the webdevelopers part. Using a specific tag only to get a visual effect, not becuse it's the apropriate markup for the content.
Magenta
02-09-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Stefan
Not in my experience. Every time I've seen that argument it was due to ignorance on the webcoders part.
And that is not acchiveable by using an apropriate tag?
Eg <p style="margin:0 10%;">
But sucks for many others. That's why you shouldn't use it (unless it's really a quote of cource).
The above P would work well for EVERYBODY. Abusing blockquote in this case is the perfect example of ignorance on the webdevelopers part. Using a specific tag only to get a visual effect, not becuse it's the apropriate markup for the content.
Well let's agree to differ then, Stefan - though frankly I prefer Jakob's world-renowned judgment over your own. Besides, if you are depending on it to clarify an area of text, your tag clearly does not work for EVERYBODY - users of many older browsers such as Opera 4, or some versions of Linux, for example.
I believe that the improved clarity for the vast majority of users overrides pedantic insistence on tag purity.
Finally, a friendly suggestion. if you're going insist on accusing other professionals of being ignorant, why not pop your offerings through a spell-checker first?
Not in my experience. Every time I've seen that argument it was due to ignorance on the webcoders part.
And that is not acchiveable by using an apropriate tag?
Eg <p style="margin:0 10%;">
But sucks for many others. That's why you shouldn't use it (unless it's really a quote of cource).
The above P would work well for EVERYBODY. Abusing blockquote in this case is the perfect example of ignorance on the webdevelopers part. Using a specific tag only to get a visual effect, not becuse it's the apropriate markup for the content.
Well let's agree to differ then, Stefan - though frankly I prefer Jakob's world-renowned judgment over your own. Besides, if you are depending on it to clarify an area of text, your tag clearly does not work for EVERYBODY - users of many older browsers such as Opera 4, or some versions of Linux, for example.
I believe that the improved clarity for the vast majority of users overrides pedantic insistence on tag purity.
Finally, a friendly suggestion. if you're going insist on accusing other professionals of being ignorant, why not pop your offerings through a spell-checker first?
Stefan
02-09-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Magenta
[B]Besides, if you are depending on it to clarify an area of text, your tag clearly does not work for EVERYBODY - users of many older browsers such as Opera 4, or some versions of Linux, for example.
Sorry my bad, I meant to write EVERYBODY (except lazy people that don't upgrade their 1990ies browsers to a newer one).
But at least they have noone else to blame but them selves, but what do you say to eg a blind person, upgrade your Eyes?
I believe that the improved clarity for the vast majority of users overrides pedantic insistence on tag purity.
The vast mayority don't use Opera 4...
99.9% of the graphical browsers in use will understand CSS margin.
Finally, a friendly suggestion. if you're going insist on accusing other professionals of being ignorant, why not pop your offerings through a spell-checker first?
That is not a friendly suggestion, that's a childish attempt to divert attention from the real issue discussed. Try to stick on topic...
[B]Besides, if you are depending on it to clarify an area of text, your tag clearly does not work for EVERYBODY - users of many older browsers such as Opera 4, or some versions of Linux, for example.
Sorry my bad, I meant to write EVERYBODY (except lazy people that don't upgrade their 1990ies browsers to a newer one).
But at least they have noone else to blame but them selves, but what do you say to eg a blind person, upgrade your Eyes?
I believe that the improved clarity for the vast majority of users overrides pedantic insistence on tag purity.
The vast mayority don't use Opera 4...
99.9% of the graphical browsers in use will understand CSS margin.
Finally, a friendly suggestion. if you're going insist on accusing other professionals of being ignorant, why not pop your offerings through a spell-checker first?
That is not a friendly suggestion, that's a childish attempt to divert attention from the real issue discussed. Try to stick on topic...
Charles
02-09-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Stefan
That is not a friendly suggestion, that's a childish attempt to divert attention from the real issue discussed. I find that once again I must disagree with Stefan. That was an attack against Stefan's person and not at all to be tolerated.
It should be noted, however, that Stefan is completely correct about the usefulness of correct HTML. If you restrict BLOCKQUOTE elements for block quotations and P elements for paragraphs then your page will always make sense on every browser. It may not look the way you expect but it will work, nonetheless. And if your page only works if it looks just so, then it's not going to work at all on a Braille or audio browser.
That is not a friendly suggestion, that's a childish attempt to divert attention from the real issue discussed. I find that once again I must disagree with Stefan. That was an attack against Stefan's person and not at all to be tolerated.
It should be noted, however, that Stefan is completely correct about the usefulness of correct HTML. If you restrict BLOCKQUOTE elements for block quotations and P elements for paragraphs then your page will always make sense on every browser. It may not look the way you expect but it will work, nonetheless. And if your page only works if it looks just so, then it's not going to work at all on a Braille or audio browser.
Magenta
02-09-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Stefan
Sorry my bad, I meant to write EVERYBODY (except lazy people that don't upgrade their 1990ies browsers to a newer one).
But at least they have noone else to blame but them selves, but what do you say to eg a blind person, upgrade your Eyes?What about blind people using older browsers? Lots of interpretive technologies can't use javascript so blind people are often several versions behind - deliberately so. And what do you say to a visually impaired person who would benefit from clearly defined paragraphs, however they are achieved? "Sorry - the tag-police won't allow this."? Will your code always work in text browsers like Lynx - lots of them around and used a lot by blind people?
The vast mayority don't use Opera 4...
99.9% of the graphical browsers in use will understand CSS margin.Well don't say EVERYBODY next time then. If you can make a sweeping statement like that, then allow me in turn to suggest that MORE people would benefit in terms of accessibility from clearly-defined text blocks as compared to the FEW people who will be mildly inconvenienced when their speaking browsers tell them a block quote is there when it isn't strictly a quotation. Web development will always be a compromise.
That is not a friendly suggestion, that's a childish attempt to divert attention from the real issue discussed. Try to stick on topic... Then don't be so rude next time, Stefan! And it is certainly well on-topic - how can you expect your postings to be accessible to users of speaking browsers if you are just too lazy to spell them correctly?
Please note, Charles, that Stefan is only too happy to call other users "lazy" and is less than courteous in his own postings. I think calling somebody "ignorant" is also an attack on the person.
Sorry my bad, I meant to write EVERYBODY (except lazy people that don't upgrade their 1990ies browsers to a newer one).
But at least they have noone else to blame but them selves, but what do you say to eg a blind person, upgrade your Eyes?What about blind people using older browsers? Lots of interpretive technologies can't use javascript so blind people are often several versions behind - deliberately so. And what do you say to a visually impaired person who would benefit from clearly defined paragraphs, however they are achieved? "Sorry - the tag-police won't allow this."? Will your code always work in text browsers like Lynx - lots of them around and used a lot by blind people?
The vast mayority don't use Opera 4...
99.9% of the graphical browsers in use will understand CSS margin.Well don't say EVERYBODY next time then. If you can make a sweeping statement like that, then allow me in turn to suggest that MORE people would benefit in terms of accessibility from clearly-defined text blocks as compared to the FEW people who will be mildly inconvenienced when their speaking browsers tell them a block quote is there when it isn't strictly a quotation. Web development will always be a compromise.
That is not a friendly suggestion, that's a childish attempt to divert attention from the real issue discussed. Try to stick on topic... Then don't be so rude next time, Stefan! And it is certainly well on-topic - how can you expect your postings to be accessible to users of speaking browsers if you are just too lazy to spell them correctly?
Please note, Charles, that Stefan is only too happy to call other users "lazy" and is less than courteous in his own postings. I think calling somebody "ignorant" is also an attack on the person.
Stefan
02-10-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Magenta
[B]What about blind people using older browsers? Lots of interpretive technologies can't use javascript so blind people are often several versions behind - deliberately so.
Eh?
I've yet to bump into any JS enabled browser in which you can't turn JS off. That includes all the latest versions.
Will your code always work in text browsers like Lynx - lots of them around and used a lot by blind people?
Correctly made markup WILL work just fine in Lynx.
BLOCKQUOTE is for quoting.
If you eg want to emphasize something the correct tag is <em>. There are a large set of other specific tags to correctly mark up your text with.
Do yourself a favour and read up about them here
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-EM
MORE people would benefit in terms of accessibility from clearly-defined text blocks as compared to the FEW people who will be mildly inconvenienced when their speaking browsers tell them a block quote is there when it isn't strictly a quotation.
The problem here is that you belive the 2 to be incompatible with each other. That you can only have one or the other. This is where the ignorance lies. It's perfectly possible to have BOTH if you use the correct markup.
That is why this is NOT a usability vs accessibility question, but a ignorance vs accessibility question.
Then don't be so rude next time, Stefan! And it is certainly well on-topic - how can you expect your postings to be accessible to users of speaking browsers if you are just too lazy to spell them correctly?
If you have issues with my level of English knowledge, then I suggest we continue this discussion in my native language.
Like most civilized people I won't mock YOU for the occasional typo or misspelling, especially in a foreign language. I think calling somebody "ignorant" is also an attack on the person.
Ignorant is not a personal attack. It states you are not knowledgable in an issue, not that you are unwilling nor unable to learn. Everybody starts out ignorant.
If you choose to interpret ignorant as eg stupid, then that is your problem. Don't blame that on me please.
If I would have meant stupid, I would have written stupid not ignorant, even with my apparently lacking English skills.
[B]What about blind people using older browsers? Lots of interpretive technologies can't use javascript so blind people are often several versions behind - deliberately so.
Eh?
I've yet to bump into any JS enabled browser in which you can't turn JS off. That includes all the latest versions.
Will your code always work in text browsers like Lynx - lots of them around and used a lot by blind people?
Correctly made markup WILL work just fine in Lynx.
BLOCKQUOTE is for quoting.
If you eg want to emphasize something the correct tag is <em>. There are a large set of other specific tags to correctly mark up your text with.
Do yourself a favour and read up about them here
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-EM
MORE people would benefit in terms of accessibility from clearly-defined text blocks as compared to the FEW people who will be mildly inconvenienced when their speaking browsers tell them a block quote is there when it isn't strictly a quotation.
The problem here is that you belive the 2 to be incompatible with each other. That you can only have one or the other. This is where the ignorance lies. It's perfectly possible to have BOTH if you use the correct markup.
That is why this is NOT a usability vs accessibility question, but a ignorance vs accessibility question.
Then don't be so rude next time, Stefan! And it is certainly well on-topic - how can you expect your postings to be accessible to users of speaking browsers if you are just too lazy to spell them correctly?
If you have issues with my level of English knowledge, then I suggest we continue this discussion in my native language.
Like most civilized people I won't mock YOU for the occasional typo or misspelling, especially in a foreign language. I think calling somebody "ignorant" is also an attack on the person.
Ignorant is not a personal attack. It states you are not knowledgable in an issue, not that you are unwilling nor unable to learn. Everybody starts out ignorant.
If you choose to interpret ignorant as eg stupid, then that is your problem. Don't blame that on me please.
If I would have meant stupid, I would have written stupid not ignorant, even with my apparently lacking English skills.
meow
02-10-2003, 01:55 AM
May I add that Opera 4 understands CSS margins on a para perfectly fine but it doesn't indent blockquote the same way as IE and Netscape traditionally do. So it seems like using blockquote for indention is a lose-lose situation. :rolleyes:
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