(The Complete?) Web Development Guide

[MstrBob]

Alright, mainly inspired by this thread: http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45595

I present to you the idea of a Web Development Guide. You know, you're good old "How to make a website" guide. Well, actually, more like: "How to Make a Proper Website" guide. All the guides out there don't teach properly. This is why there is so much confusion and anti-W3C thoughts out there. There's no place guiding you in creating a website the proper way. W3Schools is great, but it breaks it up into learning the technologies. The best bet is to aim for those who are just starting out. Those who are confused and look for the simple how to make a website guides. Who need help putting it together. Not so much a series of guides on HTML and CSS and the like, but a series which teaches how to create a website.

And damnit, this won't fall through like the Internet Bible! No, I forbid it! Forget things like management systems, hosting, and design. If we pooled together and started writing some guides, than we could actually do this. And create a rich resource to guide those in creating modern websites that are accessible and future friendly.

[sharkey]

This is a good idea one in which i would be happy to contribute to by writing some articles.

[MstrBob]

Thanks sharkey. If need be, this can be hosted off of my website, nice and ad free (I've got a lot of space and bandwith). I really think that if we start gathering some articles this will actually happen and won't die (Like the Internet Bible thing). So, come on people, you've got ideas, don't you? A name for it? How should the articles be written? What should be cover? That sort of thing.

[sciguyryan]

Yea, a very good idea. I would also be interested in helping with this :D.


RyanJ

[the tree]

Sounds good, but who's gonna do all the... y'know stuff. You'd need somewhere to put these guides.

[Jona]

Good idea, Bob. How can I contribute?

[MstrBob]

Yes, we of course need a website. That's easy enough, there are tons of free hosts and cheap hosts out there, and as I said, I could host it as well. Making a website isn't difficult (especially for a forum of web developers) and I don't want to get hung up on the technicalities. If somebody wants to design something, then design away. But until this actually gets off the ground I think we should push actually getting some articles written and to get enough support so that it goes somewhere. If we get enough people involved, than this will actually work out.

We should organize it all in this thread. That way it's open and everyone can know what's going on. Basically we're looking to create guides to take the beginner through the world of making semantic, accessible, cross-browser, appealing websites. Step by step, and do it right the first time. After all, making standards-compliant, user friendly websites isn't hard at all when you know what you're doing. So the goal here is to provide the resources neccesssary.

[Jona]

I'd be happy to make a design. :D Are we going to have staff members, like www.webdevfaqs.com does, along with guest articles?

[MstrBob]

Sorry Jona, started writing before your post. This needs to be organized, so if we want to do this properly we'll need writers, of course. Perhaps an editor or two. Of course, we need a website as well! Whichever is your srtrength, or you think you'll be best at. But before people start writing articles, perhaps we should work out a basic outline of the guide?

[Jona]

Sure thing, I'm prepared to contribute whenever and wherever possible, that's all. :)

[the tree]

Outline. Well you'd have pages on How to add content, how to style it, how to get content, what hosts are good etc etc. It needent be a start here then finish there thing, it could be all cross referenced, like how people actualy do learn.

[Ben Rogers]

On the previous thread, I already offered to do an outline, and I'm working on it right now (would be finished, but the tractor shed's roof was leaking; had to help teh dad shingle it- we ran out of shingles. :p). Once the outline is done, people can write up certain sections, and then people can edit them. Also, once we're done, we could probably put it up on Webdev faqs, so we needn't worry about design or hosting. Also, don't worry about structuring it until we're done.

[JavaHead Jonnie]

I would love to get involved with this (I sort of had the idea here (http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=255505#post255470)).

In my opinion, one of the first articles that should be written shouldn't actually be about coding, but about planning and the tools O' the trade. Ive noticed that alot of sites have great concept and a design that sounds good in your head, but not online.

Perhaps a guide showing people how to plan - and how with planning you don't need an awful lot of expensive programs to make a decent site - would be nice.

[Ben Rogers]

It's not a series of articles, it's more of a walkthrough.

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by Ben R.
On the previous thread, I already offered to do an outline, and I'm working on it right now (would be finished, but the tractor shed's roof was leaking; had to help teh dad shingle it- we ran out of shingles. :p). Once the outline is done, people can write up certain sections, and then people can edit them. Also, once we're done, we could probably put it up on Webdev faqs, so we needn't worry about design or hosting. Also, don't worry about structuring it until we're done.


I thought about that. I don't know, it's just that I haven't seen any work on it in... well, actually, I don't recall ever seeing work on it. But it's just been static. I know that Ryan, Khalid, and Dave are busy. I was planning to see this as being more of a site with articles and guides on development. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't webdevfaqs.com geared towards answering common web development questions? The idea here is to guide begginners into the art of making websites, and perhaps even expand it to include guides for experienced developers to enhance their sites and change over towards CSS and more accessible websites.

For this here guide, should not we start with the basics of how a website is made? Many beginners when starting out, are just figuring out how a website works. Maybe a nice, brief, not to technical explanation of a website's different components and how they fit together? And then you could start in with some basic HTML. And then some basic CSS for styling it. And then you could keep going with a bit more HTML, and a bit more CSS for styling. That way, while learning, people can see results and make it while not using presentational markup.

[JavaHead Jonnie]

Sorry, bad wording; I'm asuming that you'd have to have the walkthrough organised/split up into chapters/sections or whatever. I was just suggesting a topic for a section.

Also, as well as a walkthrough, resources, links etc. maybe have a section of seperate tutorials on ways of improving your site with scrpting languages, PHP, ASP etc.?

[Ben Rogers]

Yeah, I get you Bob. Attached is the outline, I think it's fine the way it is for now.

[Jona]

Originally posted by MstrBob
I know that Ryan, Khalid, and Dave are busy. I was planning to see this as being more of a site with articles and guides on development. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't webdevfaqs.com geared towards answering common web development questions? The idea here is to guide begginners into the art of making websites, and perhaps even expand it to include guides for experienced developers to enhance their sites and change over towards CSS and more accessible websites.

Word. Why not make a whole web site out of the idea, and get a domain?

[MstrBob]

Ah, Ben, very, very nice. That's a great outline, with a nice logical flow. My only concern is the styling, or lack there of. When people learn, they like to see results. With your method, people will see results rather quickly, which is good. But upon doing something like a heading, they'll want to do something like change it's color. I'm unsure how we can implement styling without (1)Overloading readers or (2)Dragging it out too long We don't want people going into presentational markup, so it's just going to be trying to implement styling slowly. But I think it can be incorporated into that outline.

[Ben Rogers]

Yeah, I see your point, but hopefully, we can make the tags part fast. It'd probably be a <dl> like <p> - denounces a paragraph, <strong> - denounces strong emphasis; and then afterwards right on to spiffifying it.

[Jona]

Taking the example given by Bob with the H2's and colors: When reading such an article on headings, one may temporarily leave the site and search for a way to color their text; they then find incorrect information before correct information which is explained later. To address this problem, I would suggest linking to a CSS-related article at the beginning of the article and also at the end, so that the reader can refer to that article if he feels he should modify the visual presentation of his text. This way, the reader knows that the article links to another one which tells him how to do what he is interested in doing, without him having to search the Web for information on how to do it.

[Ben Rogers]

Or, maybe do it in such a way so that near the tags section it has what will be made to look like a box with Modifying colors (#design-color) | Modifying fonts (#design-fonts)... and stuff like that. It'll eventually be SSL generated, so we'll worry about that much later. (Don't worry about the scripting of the site right now, because then this project will die off just like the Internet Bible (http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=41128) did.)

A clearer, HTML formatted version: http://projep.no-ip.com:81/test/forum/guide-outline.php

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by Ben R.
(No getting into the scripting, that's what killed the bible)

That should be rephrased....

But, Jona, I like that idea. So that we don't have to overwhelm at first, but we can still help out properly those who wish to know. I just noticed that Ben, erm "forgot" to add a section about frames, until he talks about SSI. ;)

I think, then, that we have a great plan of action for tackling this. This is, of course, open to anyone who wishes to write on these topics. But this really goes in depth into the art of web design, and I think by the fact that it covers so much, will be of a much greater help to readers. The outline thus far covers many common questions, and I think will leave the reader in a lot better state to create websites. Normally it's just "There, you've learned the HTML basics, now out you go!" But by guiding, and especially the sections on using CSS to create layouts, which confuses many beginners to CSS, and by getting it right the first time, this will definately turn out well.

[Jona]

I don't think we need a definitions list for HTML elements, though, since it's already documented at the W3C and should just be a link in the links section -- perhaps, when we refer to an element, we should describe it and the element's name should be a link to the particular reference area of the W3C. This would, possibly, be the job of the editor(s).

[Conor]

I'd be willing to help/donate a domain/hosting

[Ben Rogers]

Originally posted by Jona
I don't think we need a definitions list for HTML elements, though, since it's already documented at the W3C and should just be a link in the links section -- perhaps, when we refer to an element, we should describe it and the element's name should be a link to the particular reference area of the W3C. This would, possibly, be the job of the editor(s). We don't want to overload the reader, this is for beginners. Keep everything in one place, and keep it clear and non-technical.
Originally posted by Conor
I'd be willing to help/donate a domain/hosting Thanks Conor, we'll probably have to take you up on that later. :)

[MstrBob]

Hmm, not to deter from further brainstorming, but just so that (A) We have something to call it and (B) I can look into a domain name, what should we call it? A nice, easy name for a nice, easy guide....

[Jona]

Something like www.websiteguide.com or www.ultimatewebguide.com or www.webdevelopersguide.com or www.learnthestandards.com or something, I would think.

Maybe each individual should have a particular task, once we get all the details sorted out?

[Ben Rogers]

I agree with Jona about handing out tasks, once we know what we're doing. I reccomend something like make-a-site.net for a domain, by the way.

[Conor]

I would go with something like sbdesignguide.com or webdevguide.com or webdevelopersguide.com

[Jona]

Originally posted by Conor
I would go with something like sbdesignguide.com

What's "SB"? Standards-based? I would think something a little more generic would do better...

[Conor]

yeah I guess, you need something that will get high in the google rankings quickly because people will just go to the first thing they see.

[Jona]

Exactly what I was thinking. ;)

[MstrBob]

I'm actually partial to http://www.webdevelopersguide.com and http://www.learnthestandards.com But, that's just me. In terms of sorting out tasks, this is most likely a good idea. We can organize and work a lot better and faster. Probably, we should do it based on our talent area and how much time we can contribute. Most likely, there will be a bunch of writers, who are the most important. There needs to be a few editors, as well, I think. They could obviously proof read articles, format them for the website, add in a links that are necessary, actually add the articles to the site, and so on. We could look into going alistapart.com style and having periodic articles on web design, but for now the main focus will be getting ready the guide.

[Jona]

Aye. I like www.webdevelopersguide.com, too. What genius thought of that? :D I'll say I'd like to be an editor, and I would like to put my Photoshop skills to use on a design, as well. :D

[Ben Rogers]

Sorry Bob, but I'm not a fan of those domains. It should reflect that it's a site to learn how to make a website. making-a-site.com, something generic, something blatant- make it seem official.

I'll be a writer, an editor, and I'll work on the design when the time comes. I'll probably focus more on editing, though, and then writing, and then maybe hammering out the design with whoever else wants to work on that.

[Jona]

I don't like dashes in domain names, though, Ben. Got any other ideas?

[Stephen Philbin]

I'll have my first article online in a few minutes.

[rhsunderground]

well i'll help when i can, but i'd definitely be an editor. i can check through the articles and then run them through my dad (who teaches english at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and has a Ph.D in English.)

[Ben Rogers]

As previously said, this is an all-in-one deal, not seperate articles. So you mean that you're writing a certain section, and posting it? Also, when saying what it is, something like the basics>html>syntax would work nicely.

[MstrBob]

Hmm, well, since I normally have an abundance of time, I'll volunteer for editorship. Once we pull this whole thing together that is. I'll see if I can pull together some articles, as well. I'm not a designer, this is well known. Actually, it'd be interesting to see what design Jona and Ben could come up with together. :D

[Ben Rogers]

Well, I'd work on one now, but I'm not in a designing mood; I'm not feeling inspired as far as aesthetics go. I'd think something legible, flexible, clean, and very usable. Frustrated readers = them leaving = them learning the wrong way. Bright color- make it look professional.

[Jona]

I'd like to know what kind of ideas we're going to want for the design, though. Something elastic, fluid, or fixed; color ideas? Blue on white? Soft on eyes, easy reading, but cool to look at?

[MstrBob]

Hmm, yes, let us refocus. Allow me to clarify. We're going to have a guide. Sort of a Big Guide of Everything Website Design, so to speak. Now, it's broken down into different sections, chapters if you will. Having a bunch of writers certainly will speed this process up, but as we divide it, we can divide it by saying, "I'll take the Chapter on Doctypes!" or perhaps, "I can write the links subsection, and it's chapters" The main goal is to first come together, and write this guide. The guide is the central focus point of the site. Other subsequent guides and/or articles can be thought about, but forget it for now. Let us not go in mulitple directions before we get off the ground. If we keep it focused, this will work.

[MstrBob]

Alright, well, the basic idea of the design should be, I think, light colors. Nothing particularly bold or daring or graphics heavy. Not to say that we should wind up with a boring, whit-grey design, either. Some nice bright colours to mix it up, make it look fresh, alive, vibrant, yet professional. If that makes any sense, lest I'm just spewing out adjectives at you.

Elastic, fluid, or fixed would depend on the layout, would it not? One, two, or three column?

[Stephen Philbin]

I'm just writing an intrio to html to show what it is not and how simple it can be when done semantically. Semantics will not be mentioned, it's out of the scope of the intro. However it is impled through the examples given.

Make of it what you will when it goes online in a mo'.
By the way, where's that chuffin' list of character encodings gone? I re-installed my operating systems and lost the bookmark. y'know, the table for showing changing < to &lt; and & to &amp; etc.

[MstrBob]

http://www.asciitable.com/

[rhsunderground]

i volunteer to do something on how to make the worst webpage ever!

[Jona]

Originally posted by MstrBob
Alright, well, the basic idea of the design should be, I think, light colors. Nothing particularly bold or daring or graphics heavy. Not to say that we should wind up with a boring, whit-grey design, either. Some nice bright colours to mix it up, make it look fresh, alive, vibrant, yet professional. If that makes any sense, lest I'm just spewing out adjectives at you.

Elastic, fluid, or fixed would depend on the layout, would it not? One, two, or three column?

Got it for colors. You could theoretically do any number of columns in any kind of layout, but I was thinking we should go for an elastic layout. Sound good?

[Jona]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
i volunteer to do something on how to make the worst webpage ever!

~Looks at your web site~ You're hired! :p

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by Jona
Got it for colors. You could theoretically do any number of columns in any kind of layout, but I was thinking we should go for an elastic layout. Sound good?

Jona, I'm no designer, and I've seen the websites you've made, so whatever you think, go with it, man!


Ben, you can write it, only if it's as, erm, "good" as this: http://www.thenamesdan.com/duh/

[Jona]

Originally posted by MstrBob
Jona, I'm no designer, and I've seen the websites you've made, so whatever you think, go with it, man!


Ben, you can write it, only if it's as, erm, "good" as this: http://www.thenamesdan.com/duh/

Thanks. I'll play around with Photoshop for a little while, keeping in mind we don't want graphically intense, we want clean. And, um, that "duh" link is pretty nice. I think I'll keep it. :p

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by MstrBob
Jona, I'm no designer, and I've seen the websites you've made, so whatever you think, go with it, man!


Ben, you can write it, only if it's as, erm, "good" as this: http://www.thenamesdan.com/duh/ yes, woot for Jona!

actually, i was going to write ABOUT a crappy webpage, not make one, but that can be incorporated with dan's page...

[Jona]

lol, RHS.

[Ben Rogers]

Please call Rizzo by his user name, to avoid confusion, 'k? I keep forgetting he has the same name as me. :p

Jona, are you on Yahoo or MSN? I'd like to discuss this with you.

[Jona]

I'm on Y!.

[Stephen Philbin]

Ok here's the first version. It's unstyles but carries some classes and id's so it can have a style sheet slapped over it straight off with no fussing.

http://www.vagusnet.com/ste/intro.html

What ya reckon?

[Stephen Philbin]

Oops! Just realised I chopped out a chunk in the first paragraph and forgot to replace it. Just a sec.........:o

[Ben Rogers]

This is meant for people with NO knowledge of HTML, that kind of thing. So they're really just learning, from scratch. So, an intro shouldn't say things aren't, only say what is.

[rhsunderground]

now that i think of it, i have a resource which could be very useful. let me see if my teacher will let me use it (she wrote it)

[Stephen Philbin]

There. Made the correction.

You sure about that Ben? You don't think it'd be a good idea to have people know exactly what they can do with it from the get go? We only need to look in the html section of this forum to see evidence of people never actually finding what it is and why their pseudo "html scripting" won't email someone?

I think it'd be a good idea to have people know what direction they're going to be going in before we start moving them.

I'm pleased to see the speed at which this thread is growing too. A good indication of the enthusiasm that is likely to get thrown into it.

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by Mr Herer
I'm pleased to see the speed at which this thread is growing too. A good indication of the enthusiasm that is likely to get thrown into it. well the internet bible project had lots of enthusiasm to start off with, too:p

[Ben Rogers]

Originally posted by Mr Herer
I think it'd be a good idea to have people know what direction they're going to be going in before we start moving them. I do think that that would be good, but you don't really say what it is, you start off with what it isn't. Be more blatant, it's an intro remember. This is what they read first- if it intrigues them, they stay, if it doesn't, they'll be going to the next tutorial.

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
well the internet bible project had lots of enthusiasm to start off with, too:p

No! NO! Damnit, I'm determined that this project enters the realm of reality. Look, we already have a chapter for HTML Introduction. All the Internet Bible ever had were snippets and ideas. This is important, and I know it can get off the ground. Let us learn from the mistakes of that idea. Scripting will not get in the way here. Though, the system should be run by some sort of system (of which I'm working on) it won't impede the process of writing this guide.

[Stephen Philbin]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
well the internet bible project had lots of enthusiasm to start off with, too:p

Shhhhhhhhh!!!

Anyway. What ya reckon to the thing I wrote. I know the wording could be better but I'm not too hot with the ol' concentration at the mo'.

Also if we're having a "tools of the trade" section, I'd like to remind whoever does it to include a bit on why we need to test in different browsers. Just make sure not to make it sound like all browsers render completely differently and end up scaring people off.

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by Mr Herer
Also if we're having a "tools of the trade" section, I'd like to remind whoever does it to include a bit on why we need to test in different browsers. Just make sure not to make it sound like all browsers render completely differently and end up scaring people off. i think we should find a site that renders completely differently in different browsers and take screenshots to show people the differences.

[Stephen Philbin]

Originally posted by Ben R.
I do think that that would be good, but you don't really say what it is, you start off with what it isn't. Be more blatant, it's an intro remember. This is what they read first- if it intrigues them, they stay, if it doesn't, they'll be going to the next tutorial.


No no no no no. I don't mean this to be an intro to the site, just an informative article that should be read early in the process. The real site intro should be of a completely different vein. That should tell people that they will be learning in a particular way so that they learn right the first time and don't have to go through the trauma of "making the switch". Telling them how it will make pages FAR easier for them to make and that pretty much 100% of people with access to the net will be able to access the page.

I wrote the article I did to re-enforce in their mind the idea that they can do it because it has a learning curve instead of a learning cliff.

[rhsunderground]

so this will be like w3schools?

[MstrBob]

Hmm, let us examine the guide:


- Introduction (What making websites is about; content, form, design, SSL's, 'rules', etc.)
- The basics
- HTML
- Syntax
- How it works, semantics


You see, this is not the beginning. Rather, this would be the HTML introduction. The first article would be about what makes up a website and what you need/need to know. Forget about telling people the right and wrong way and switching and all that. This is to take the real beginner and guide them. Talk about right ways and wrong ways and all will simply confuse. Let us not add anything right away that we don't need to. Nice and easy and brief. But allow it to sink in, information overload will simply scare readers off.

But, I feel, that the article is a good starting point.

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
so this will be like w3schools?

Originally posted by MstrBob
There's no place guiding you in creating a website the proper way. W3Schools is great, but it breaks it up into learning the technologies. The best bet is to aim for those who are just starting out. Those who are confused and look for the simple how to make a website guides. Who need help putting it together. Not so much a series of guides on HTML and CSS and the like, but a series which teaches how to create a website.

[Stephen Philbin]

I'd think of it as more of a friendly walk through getting started with html. Going on into real page making and some real applications of html. More like a friendly teacher that talks youi through things, rather than an instruction manual (which is rather like how w3schools feels).

It doesn't matter if it's another anything or not anyway. The more sites like this the better. Try and close the gap on all the millions of other sites out there that teach truly abhorrant coding.

[Ben Rogers]

Originally posted by Mr Herer
I'd think of it as more of a friendly walk through getting started with html. As said before, this is on making a site, not just learning html, which is simply structure.

This said, I just thought of something- should we note on web etiquette and the such?

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by Ben R.
As said before, this is on making a site, not just learning html, which is simply structure.

This said, I just thought of something- should we note on web etiquette and the such? define web etiquette.

[Conor]

Bob , I'm really partial to learnthestandards.com but I think it should have a name that when the guide is finished will be able to expand past html which I was ultimately I would vote for webdevelopmentguide.com

[Stephen Philbin]

If you mean translation of terminology via a glossary of some sort, then you'll notice this is hinted at in the article I made. Look at the links on the page. ;)

[Ben Rogers]

I don't think we should expand past teaching how to make a website. I think it should stay in a linear order.

[MstrBob]

Aye, Conor, that's what I was leaning towards as well. After all, this is a guide for web developers. Simple as that. Besides the fact that make-a-site.com is taken, it sounds rather cheesey if you ask me. The name is more general, yet fully describes the website's purpose. Of course, there's http://www.webdevelopersguide.com or http://www.webdevsguide.com

Now, the site's purpose is not, I repeat, NOT to simply teach the underlying technologies of a webpage (HTML, CSS, ect.) but rather how to create a website with these technologies. The point is to take a beginner, and guide them into a creating a webpage with valid, semantic HTML and to use full CSS. However, we're not just going to teach the technologies and abondan them. That leaves too much confusion. So as we go along we teach HTML, maybe incorporating CSS with it, and we keep going teaching more and more. So now people view the two as being more intertwined and don't, well, "fear" CSS, or wonder how to incorporate CSS. We show them how they can create CSS layouts and designs, we tell them about Website Design, what some common tricks are, and what some design no-no's are. We're teaching it all right the first time, and trying to leave them with as little confusion about things as possible.

[Stephen Philbin]

I think if we're going linear, it should have a linear core but still have expansion at the sides. The glossary for example, techniquest and problems explained etc. Giving the opportunity to stay on site and have other things out of scope explained in a simple and friendly way.

Y'know. Going along the lines of the "give a man a fish" proverb.

[Booooze]

i havent read all 5 pages:P, but i know the jist of it, and id be happy to help out wherever i can. i can host it if you like. from another forum, we started writing something like this, full of tutorials and stuff for visual basic 6, except it didnt turn out very well as we found it hard to find time to continue writing them. id be more than happy to host it tho:) , and of course i can write some stuff. i like the idea, and we seem to have a lot of us here that seemed involved... count me in :)

[Ben Rogers]

Yes, subpages of course. The glossary would exist so we could use "buzzwords", that had been defined in earlier sections, and not have to worry about confusing people (things like Faux columns, semantics, etc.)

[the tree]

*Eeek* I go away for four hours and 4 pages of posts appear!

Right about domain names, n00bs dont know what standards are. So putting standards in the domain name != good idea.

Also? Who is gonna be in charge? Obviously loads of people are going to contribute but you'll need someone at the top to co-ordinate the whole thing.

[Ben Rogers]

Well, if Bob doesn't mind then I think that he and I could lead it. Bob started the thread, and I'm power hungry, so...

EDIT -- Conor should have a large say as well, since he's offering hosting.

[Booooze]

Well, if Bob doesn't mind then I think that him and I could lead it. Bob started the thread, and I'm power hungry, so...

go for it. first things first... whos doin what? Im readin these pages now.:p

[Jona]

Originally posted by Ben R.
Well, if Bob doesn't mind then I think that him and I could lead it. Bob started the thread, and I'm power hungry, so...

<rant>It's he and I.</rant>

Have we decided on a domain name? Also, any clues as to what links we'll be having as part of the main navigation (not the table of contents)?

[Conor]

I say webdesignguide or webdevelopmentguide or somerthing of the like

[Booooze]

quote:Originally posted by Mr Herer
I'd think of it as more of a friendly walk through getting started with html.

As said before, this is on making a site, not just learning html, which is simply structure.

This said, I just thought of something- should we note on web etiquette and the such?

if its on making a site... maybe we should tell them what there using to make a site? once you show them html, if they are a complete noob(which we all were at one point),what are they going to do? did you know to use notepad when u first started? Dreamweaver? ConText, or any others? maybe get into those a bit to before you start showing them code. dont teach the editor, just give them some starting points as to where there putting the code you are showing them. when i first started, i didnt know anything, and i was told to use Notepad. when i did VB i didnt know about the vb studio. now im doing some C# and i can use notepad or ms studio... ya know. see what im getting at? people dont know how to actually use the code.

as for the domain names, i like the ones we listed, so doesnt matter to much to me. ya know, just ez to remember, generic etc.

[Stephen Philbin]

Whilst you guys decide on a name, I'll get working on a glossary shall I? What words we having then?

[Ben Rogers]

We've already established that, Booze. <http://projep.no-ip.com:81/test/forum/guide-outline.php>

[Booooze]

meh, owell, my bad..:p :rolleyes:

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by Ben R.
Well, if Bob doesn't mind then I think that he and I could lead it. Bob started the thread, and I'm power hungry, so...

Ah, Ben, always trying to be important, aren't you? What would happen if I minded, eh? In terms of, well, "leading" this, I'd say that it would be organized by a group of editors. Who will be editors? Whoever can honestly find the time for it. It's not an all-time controlling endevour, but it will take the bit of effort to set up at first. Not too many, though, then it would get dicey, methinks. A handful of editors to oversee, and then the writers to develope the content, I'd say.

Originally posted by Jona
Have we decided on a domain name? Also, any clues as to what links we'll be having as part of the main navigation (not the table of contents)?

Originally posted by Conor
I say webdesignguide or webdevelopmentguide or somerthing of the like

Personally, I like webdevelopersguide.com Anybody have any issues with that? Speak now, or forever hold your peace, and all that...

Hmmm, navigation will be interesting. Hadn't thought about that much, really. I suppose we should make it similar to W3Schools, wherein you have main navigation, and then when you enter an area, the navigation changes. I personally find dropdown menus annoying and a bit cheesy. Perhaps the main nav should be the major subjects of the outline?

-The Basics
-Making sure you did everything right (Perhaps shortened to Editing ?)
-Design
-Images
-Sever Side Languages
-But... so-and-so.com does this... (Perhaps shortened to Common Mistakes ?)
-Links and Resources

[Jona]

Well, I was thinking the main navigation should be horizontal, the layout fluid, and the table of contents as vertical navigation to the left of the content, and then of course a footer. Like so (http://209.169.105.28/jona/research/layouts/webdevelopersguide/body1.jpg). I like WebDeveloper's Guide.com, as well.

[MstrBob]

Well, let me first say that your Photoshop pieces leave my draw dropped once more, Jona. Kudos on it!

So, then, perhaps several main links at the top? Something like:

Home | Developer's Guide | Additional Articles | Contact Us

And then you'd have sub navigation links on the side, like you said. Would that work?


Edit: they just bothered me unseparated

[Jona]

Absolutely; better than expected, in fact. And thanks for the kudos. :)

[steelersfan88]

Well, I like the idea. Good luck, and don't lose enthusiasm on this, because it would be a great resource to point newbies too.

Don't forget aesthetics, a major problems with all [geocities] websites (geocities in particular, because they seem to be the messiest). Etc ...

Good luck.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Jona
Well, I was thinking the main navigation should be horizontal, the layout fluid, and the table of contents as vertical navigation to the left of the content, and then of course a footer. Like so (http://209.169.105.28/jona/research/layouts/webdevelopersguide/body1.jpg). I like WebDeveloper's Guide.com, as well.
Aw, dude, I so hate you right now. :( :( :(
You have some mad, mad, mad totally phat PS skillZ, dude, with a major capital Z. I am so insanely jealous… I’m going to steal your brain!


OT: I could not be bothered to read this whole thread, but I think this is an excellent idea, and I would be happy to contribute. I would say my forte is more on the programming side, so design/graphics should be left up to someone who knows what they’re doing and is good at it (*Cough*Jona*Cough*). :D

[Ben Rogers]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
(*Cough*Jona*Cough*) You know you got a little something something on your nose there, right? :p Anyways, it has already been agreed Jona is doing the design, so we'll probably be able to stick you with some writing. ^^

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
Aw, dude, I so hate you right now. :( :( :(
You have some mad, mad, mad totally phat PS skillZ, dude, with a major capital Z. I am so insanely jealous… I’m going to steal your brain!


OT: I could not be bothered to read this whole thread, but I think this is an excellent idea, and I would be happy to contribute. I would say my forte is more on the programming side, so design/graphics should be left up to someone who knows what they’re doing and is good at it (*Cough*Jona*Cough*). :D

Ah, Paul, are you literate? It would appear so, so if you can, you can join us in being an author for the guide! Basically, I assume we can break it down and people can write different sections of it, perhaps on areas they feel most comfortable. And even after we've completed the developer's guide, we can continue by having different articles on web developement/design. So, if you can write, it'd be appreciated.

Also, if you're interested in helping me come up with a management system for this, contact me. IM, email, whichever. I'll handle the backend off-forum so as not to detract from the brainstorming here.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Ben R.
You know you got a little something something on your nose there, right? :p Anyways, it has already been agreed Jona is doing the design, so we'll probably be able to stick you with some writing. ^^
Ha ha, yeah, it’s probably snot. :D :D :D

Yeah, anyways, probably not writing for me; I do not write well.

Originally posted by MstrBob
Ah, Paul, are you literate? It would appear so, so if you can, you can join us in being an author for the guide! Basically, I assume we can break it down and people can write different sections of it, perhaps on areas they feel most comfortable. And even after we've completed the developer's guide, we can continue by having different articles on web developement/design. So, if you can write, it'd be appreciated.

Also, if you're interested in helping me come up with a management system for this, contact me. IM, email, whichever. I'll handle the backend off-forum so as not to detract from the brainstorming here.
Yeah, they’re still trying to figure out if I am literate or not. :D

If I had to do some writing, it would probably have to be on CSS or PHP.

I would be glad to help ya out with the management system. :D I have you on YIM, so I can talk there. ;) (I take it this will be handled by PHP with everything being stored in a MySQL database, yes?)

[MstrBob]

Well, ideally, I'm hoping for Unix/Apache/PHP/MySQL I, and many here, are familiar with this type of hosting, it's very reliable, and tends to be cheaper. Hosting, currently, is undecided. For the sake of giving this a professional and reliable look, I hope to secure a domain name. I think we're pretty much decided on webdeveloperguide.com, no? If so, I just want to get hosting straightened out. Conor said something about hosting. I don't want to impose this upon him unless he's absolutely positive he can/wants to. If not, I can work out hosting by splitting my account. I just want to steer clear of free hosts unless we can get what we want, get our own domain, and either be adless or control the ad code. I wouldn't be against Google Adsense if it'll pay the bills, if need be.

But to answer your question, Paul, the backend will be PHP/MySQL. I'm looking to make a usersystem, not unlike a blog, minus commenting. Users table, table for different guide sections, and then perhaps different table for different article sections. Not difficult at all, it's just getting the coding done.

[Paul Jr]

Excellent, sounds juicy to me. Coding is my forte, my man. :D

However, domains cost money — who’s going to front the cost? The hosting will cost money as well, but some people already have hosting — are these people willing to host this site?

[Stephen Philbin]

Yeah. It's is going to be php right? I haven't bothered with asp yet. Don't plan on bothering with it any time soon either to be honest.

Oh I'll comment out any classes and id's used in the documents I'm churning out so you won't have to go looking through all the mark up to find them all and someone can knock up a style sheet much more easily. ;)

I'll put the comments as the first thing after the <body> tag so whoever can find 'em easy. I'll gp back to the intro one now. Gimmy about 30 mins to sort it.

[Conor]

Bob I would love to work on the backend too






I can definately supply hosting because I have 100gb of bandwith that is basically unused. I got it for working doing some php stuff for a guy. I should be able to supply the domain name too.

[rhsunderground]

i'd be willing to help run the project as well, if nothing more than an administrative overseer. and the only problem with having the navigation run across the top is the smaller screen users.

[Jona]

Two words when looking for where to buy a domain: Go Daddy (http://www.godaddy.com/). The .com domains are very cheap and I've used these guys before, they're the best! So is the domain www.webdeveloperguide.com or www.webdevelopersguide.com or what? I'm confused now...

[Stephen Philbin]

I strongly favour www.webdeveloperguide.com over www.webdevelopersguide.com .

[zachzach]

Been thinking about this for a while. Should we make a guide, or should it be more of a A List Apart (http://www.alistapart.com) kind of a thing? I would be happy to put up tons of articles and content. I'll do Semantics/Acessiblity/Usability/IA and maybe some CSS and XHTML sprinkled inbetween(BTW, I can do PHP, ASP, Javascript&DHTML, SHTML, XML, Abstract Art[You get the kinda of idea--I know everything muahahaha :p], and a ton of other stuff :D). If you need some stuff to let me in, I just wrote an article on how to do basic columns:
http://www.zachblog.com/log/archives/2004/10/03/pure_css_collumns
And plus my site(http://www.zachblog.com/) has tons of other articles, so just take a look at my entire site and the content and articles. All mine :)

[Conor]

I cant buy the domain from go daddy. I dont have a credit card. I do though have plenty of money in my paypal and namecheap has always worked well for me.

[MstrBob]

It's webdevelopersguide.com, as far as I know. Actually, now that I think of it, it should be Webdevelopers' Guide, should it not? Plural possessive? Otherwise, it'd have to be A Webdeveloper's Guide. (But then you'd leave out the a for the domain name) Such a petty thing to decide! Which do you think, A Webdeveloper's Guide or Webdevelopers' Guide? Profound thought....

Ah, Ben, erm, Skinner? In terms of administration, it's more of editorial work that I'm talking about. There's simple, basic overseeing, but really, it's editing. When I say editing, I mean more than simple proofreading and grammar, but also helping the writers keep to the intended topic of their chosen chapter, and to make it clear, concise, non-technical, and still explain it. So, you know, perhaps chapter writing would go something like:

Author writes -> Editor reads over, highlights suggestions -> Author rewrites -> Editor checks over once more and then publishes.

That's why I said editors should be whoever can donate the time.

[zachzach]

A Webdeveloper's Guide is better. Looks better on web(paper?)

Note: I think we should have a beginners section, and then an experienced section that is more like A List Apart with articles.

[zachzach]

BTW--If I have time, I am an extreamly picky editor. I can pick out things in sentances where its not tecnically wrong, but I can suggest better sounding sentances, ect.

[Ben Rogers]

I think that you're getting ahead of yourself. Once the tutorial is 100% finished, polished, and set up- we can consider advanced guides.

[MstrBob]

Damnit, I need to type faster, apparently! :p Zach, this is very much open to anyone who's willing to write and to keep with idea of helping users from scratch creat valid, semantic, visually appealing websites. We want to create a guide that walks through all the steps. Ben Rogers most graciously helped by creating the basic outline of the guide, as can be seen here:

http://projep.no-ip.com:81/test/forum/guide-outline.php


Hmm, you know, I kind of like The Webdeveloper Guide. you know, http://www.webdeveloperguide.com What do you think? I hate to ask Jona to redo his graphic, though!

Conor, are you sure you can offer hosting? If you want, you could set up some sort of ad, like Google Adsense or another ad program to help subsidize the cost of it. I thank you very much for this, and everyone's help thus far. This truly will come to life!

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by MstrBob
Ah, Ben, erm, Skinner? In terms of administration, it's more of editorial work that I'm talking about. There's simple, basic overseeing, but really, it's editing. When I say editing, I mean more than simple proofreading and grammar, but also helping the writers keep to the intended topic of their chosen chapter, and to make it clear, concise, non-technical, and still explain it. So, you know, perhaps chapter writing would go something like:

Author writes -> Editor reads over, highlights suggestions -> Author rewrites -> Editor checks over once more and then publishes.

That's why I said editors should be whoever can donate the time. you can call me skinner, RHS, chops, whatever (for the most part). i spend up to 6 hours a day online, so i'll be ok with that.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by zachzach
Note: I think we should have a beginners section, and then an experienced section that is more like A List Apart with articles.
Quite frankly, I think that’s a bad idea for two reasons. 1) Why do we want it to be like ALA? ALA already exists, so what’s the sense in copying ALA? 2) What “experienced” stuff is there left to write about?

I think this should just be a guide to creating and publishing a valid, semantic, acessible, good looking website. There is already an ALA, so why do we need more ALAesque stuff? More tutorial fashion than having articles like ALA.

My two cents.

[Conor]

Bob I have tons of free hosting just going to waste :p , Im positive. I'll consider adsense though, I do have an account.

[zachzach]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
OT: I could not be bothered to read this whole thread, but I think this is an excellent idea, and I would be happy to contribute. I would say my forte is more on the programming side, so design/graphics should be left up to someone who knows what they’re doing and is good at it (*Cough*Jona*Cough*). :D

Are you saying I dont know how to design? :D JK

I'd like to help with the design, too(I knows, im saying i will help alot, help alot, but ask around to people. I get thing done). I can do off the wall CSS. Like so:
http://www.zachblog.com/css/base.css
http://www.zachblog.com/css/fonts.css
http://www.zachblog.com/css/colors.css
Which ends up as:
http://www.zachblog.com/
Tada!


I think that you're getting ahead of yourself. Once the tutorial is 100% finished, polished, and set up- we can consider advanced guides.
Yup. I'm just getting ahead of myself, that all :D

[zachzach]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
Quite frankly, I think that’s a bad idea for two reasons. 1) Why do we want it to be like ALA? ALA already exists, so what’s the sense in copying ALA? 2) What “experienced” stuff is there left to write about?

I think this should just be a guide to creating and publishing a valid, semantic, acessible, good looking website. There is already an ALA, so why do we need more ALAesque stuff? More tutorial fashion than having articles like ALA.

My two cents.

I meant "like ala" as in a collection of Articles. I was just using a example. I could have used http://www.digital-web.com as an example, I just love ALA :P

Damnit, I need to type faster, apparently!
No, I just think fast :D

[zachzach]

Holy H'ell!
This is going fast as the shizzle. whoa!

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by zachzach
http://www.zachblog.com/css/base.css
http://www.zachblog.com/css/fonts.css
http://www.zachblog.com/css/colors.css

That code is very hard to read, and appears (at least to me) to be quite bloated…

[MstrBob]

Okay, okay. Just to keep it all straight here. The main focus of the website is to create a guide. This guide will guide absolute beginners in creating a modern, valid, semantic, standards-compliant, accessible, visually appealling website. This is the site's main intended goal. Everything else is icing on the cake, and as you know, you don't do icing until there's a cake.

We're opening it up to those who are willing and able to help. This is a large undertaking, and as such, is better accomplished by a group of people. Ben's outline is the outline of the guide to be written. This is the guide as we've thus far created it. If you can, we invite you to help us in writing it. Pick one of the earlier sub sections. The smaller sections, chapters if you will. Stay very true to that topic name, don't deviate far from it. Keep it simple, non technical, but brief as well. Those of us who wish to volunteer as editors as such will help you hone it down and ready it for being incoporated into the guide.

[zachzach]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
That code is very hard to read, and appears (at least to me) to be quite bloated…
really, you think? Its quite long because of the fact the my site is quite large, and complicated. I have been cutting down my code for a while now, but my site just is not small. Its complex.


Okay, okay. Just to keep it all straight here.
I surrender!


Everything else is icing on the cake, and as you know, you don't do icing until there's a cake.
Ooooohhhhhhh.....now I get it :D

[Jona]

I like the Web Developer's Guide (http://209.169.105.28/jona/research/layouts/webdevelopersguide/home.html). I made the layout fluid, so in order for it to fit on smaller screens, I had to use simple text links instead of buttons. But it still looks nice.

Conor, why not ask your parents to buy it and then you pay them back? That's what I do. :p

[MstrBob]

Not to be overbearing or pushy, but I'm very pleased at the growth of this. We've got a lot of involevment and this thing has really taken off. At this point, I feel it best if we can organize our selves into positions in which we can most help in. So, shall we create a list? Thus far, I know for a fact that myself will volunteer as an editor, and Benny boy will too (just let him, or he'll whine a lot. :p ) Mr. Herer was kind enough thus far to write and has expressed an interest in this so far. Allow be assemble a list as I understand it. If I've something wrong, just state it and we can easily admend our list:

Editors
-Bob
-Benny Boy
-Paul (Grammar Enforcement)
-Skinner (RHS, NavelMan, whatever)
Writers
-Mr. Herer
-Sharkey
-Sciguyryan
-Zach
-Bob (me again)
-Paul (perhaps?)
Development Team
-Jona (Designer)
-Paul (PHP/MySQL development)
-Conor (PHP/MySQl, and our Host)
-Bob (I'm everywhere)

Did I miss anyone? Screw anything up? Want to join/opt out? Let it be know. :D

[steelersfan88]

Jona, very nice in Mozilla, not so nice in Internet Explorer. If you wnat to look, it is quite non-appealing.

And imo, the majority of people referred to this site will be newbies, and unless converted browsers fro mthese forums, will probably be under that browser :rolleyes:

[zachzach]

Whoa. Throw me in wit you for "Everywhere".

But Seriously, add me in the development team with Jona(for designer) if its ok with 'im.

I think I'm a good designer *darty eyes*



I'm going to create a "hub" of sorts so we can see all the links and whos doing what ect.
http://www.zachblog.com/webdevguidehub/
Will be done in the next few days.

[Jona]

Originally posted by steelersfan88
Jona, very nice in Mozilla, not so nice in Internet Explorer. If you wnat to look, it is quite non-appealing.

And imo, the majority of people referred to this site will be newbies, and unless converted browsers fro mthese forums, will probably be under that browser :rolleyes:

I design first for Mozilla, then for Internet Explorer. I can fix problems in other browsers without a problem, but I always make sure I have completed the design first. I'm quite aware of any problems. ;)

[rhsunderground]

jona - nice pic, but in opera 7.23 the links are not great. poor coloring and some lie on the middle of a line.

[steelersfan88]

I knew you would solve the problem, just wnated to inform. Not to mention IE's very unattractive blink when mousing over ... but you can handle whatever troubles, as that is your job :D

[Jona]

Originally posted by steelersfan88
I knew you would solve the problem, just wnated to inform. Not to mention IE's very unattractive blink when mousing over ... but you can handle whatever troubles, as that is your job :D

Yep. ;)

RHS, and everyone else, please don't review it until it's done! :p The design process is a long, trecherous, buggy, and unpredictable one.

[Conor]

jona, I've never had a problem with namecheap and its much easier for me to not have to go to them. There from the internet is bad and the credit card cant go near the computer age.

[Jona]

Originally posted by Conor
jona, I've never had a problem with namecheap and its much easier for me to not have to go to them. There from the internet is bad and the credit card cant go near the computer age.

All right, whatever works best for you; I didn't check to see how much NameCheap charges, but I was just trying to save you a little extra money. ;)

[rhsunderground]

i might be able to chip in with payage. i just bought skinneralamod.com from godaddy for $15.90 USD for 2 years.

btw - http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45534 any help?

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by zachzach
really, you think? Its quite long because of the fact the my site is quite large, and complicated. I have been cutting down my code for a while now, but my site just is not small. Its complex.
I meant that it is difficult to read in the sense that it’s all smushed. Don’t you like line breaks and indenting?

P.S.: Bob, you might want to add me as one of the editors, if not just for the grammar/spelling aspect. :D :D :D I don’t know how much of a writer I’ll be…

[Conor]

meh name cheap is like 7 cents cheaper, not really a big deal.

[Jona]

That's cool, then, Conor.

RHS, the problem with Opera is it wants me to add a width to the UL, otherwise it assumes the width is only that of what is contained therein; the problem with that, though, is that when the browser is resized and then scrolled to the right, the layout kind of messes up. This problem doesn't occur in Mozilla or IE. Is there any hack to work only for Opera?

[Stephen Philbin]

I've been an editor for over a year now and i'm pretty good with photoshop and php. Although I won't be reliable enough for anything other than articles here and there until the new year maybe.

[rhsunderground]

i just talked to a friend of mine and he said he's willing to try out our site as soon as we get it up so we can see if it works or not. of course, i'll be here to help him if he has problems so i can report back as we go. :D :D :D

[Jick]

Woah! I don't know how I missed this but it sounds like a cool idea. I'd be happy to contribute some stuff. ;)

[rhsunderground]

i'm gonna milk webdev.com for everything i can to shove on a resume` :p

Moderator, WebDeveloper.com
Moderaror, WebHostsTalk.com
Editor, WhateverThisWebsiteWillBe.com
Owner/Operator, SkinnerALaMod.com
Owner, Navel

[pawky]

I think this is a great idea and would love to help. I am interested most in being an editor. I am good at proofreading. I could also do the writing part (though wouldn't prefer it). I know HTML and CSS very well. If we are doing any of the other languages (doesnt sound like we are, at least not for a while) then I would be great for editing as well, because if it makes sense to me then it should also to the other people that would be reading it because I dont know any of them ;)

And I wish I could comment on Jona's design, but I can't view it :(

[the tree]

Yeh, loads of dead links in these threads.

Anyways put me in the list for writer.

[Stephen Philbin]

Yeah I can't see it either. "Connection refused".

[pawky]

Originally posted by the tree
Yeh, loads of dead links in these threads.

Anyways put me in the list for writer.

i believe its because they have it hosted off of their comp locally so their computer must be on. Just my guess :P

[Stephen Philbin]

Probably. I'm guessing that's the reason for the :81 in the URI.

[soccer362001]

I'll help where ever I can.

[Jona]

Originally posted by pawky
i believe its because they have it hosted off of their comp locally so their computer must be on. Just my guess :P

Your hypothesis is accurate; I turned on my computer at 11am instead of 5am. My apologies. It ought to work now. <http://209.169.105.28/jona/research/layouts/webdevelopersguide/home.html>

[Daniel T]

If you are still open to people to contribute to this site, Bob, I would be more than happy to put forward my knowledge on various subjects ;)

[Fang]

gap above #toc and #content h2 not consistent across browsers.
Additions:
#toc {padding-top:20px;} /* if you require padding */
#toc ul:first-child {margin:0;} /* FF fix */
h2, h3, h4, h5, h6 {margin:0;} /* or some value */

[Jona]

Thanks a lot, Fang! I'll look into that, as soon as possible. :)

[JavaHead Jonnie]

Whoa! I go to sleep and there's an extra 8 pages of replies and all the jods are gone. J/K.

I would love it if I could possibly cover a few subjects, but mostly scripting...?

I can cover writing scripts, optimizing (I can write online tools for this and about the Good-Ol' manual way), about limiting use, common errors/mistakes etc.

How about it?

[Jona]

Pedro, I think at the moment we're focusing on beginner's articles, so no scripting/programming will be involved, at least for a while; however, perhaps in the near future, it might be a good idea to add articles/walkthroughs on everything, because the WebDeveloper's Guide is so generic. It allows for us to add lots more than a beginning walkthrough.

[Booooze]

Editors
-Bob
-Benny Boy
-Paul (Grammar Enforcement)
-Skinner (RHS, NavelMan, whatever)
Writers
-Mr. Herer
-Sharkey
-Sciguyryan
-Zach
-Bob (me again)
-Paul (perhaps?)
Development Team
-Jona (Designer)
-Paul (PHP/MySQL development)
-Conor (PHP/MySQl, and our Host)
-Bob (I'm everywhere)

Thanks alot, you for got me! :p , doesnt matter, ill just be an unofficial editor and take a look at the progress as it goes along, offering feedback. prolly wouldnt be able to handle all this anyways, got anough on my plate as it is:p

[rhsunderground]

well hows about we start cracking, eh? conor, hook us teh up! perhaps set up another FTP account for this particular site so we can work on this but not your site (not that any of us would do that...)

[JavaHead Jonnie]

Sure - I'll start some draft and give me a shout when you need some done into 'neat' ;).

[rhsunderground]

do we want to put a "submit an article" part on the site?

[Jona]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
do we want to put a "submit an article" part on the site?

Yes, but apparently that will be Paul Jr, Conor, and Bob's job. ;) I'm thinking we'll have a main staff to contribute articles/work on the site, and then guests can submit articles for review and editing, and if we deem them useful, they will be added to the database. ALA-style, I'm thinkin'. ;)

[MstrBob]

Ah, I see we have still more interest in the site. That is good. Let us not worry, everything is being taken care of in due time.

Skinner, in terms of submit article buttons and all that, that is backend. I've already been planning out some of it with Paul, but forget that. That's a little while to come. For now, though, there is nothing to stop people from contributing.

People who want to join, well, we welcome you all on board! In terms of editorship, as I've said before, we don't want a lot of editors, and only the people who know they can really contribute the time to it. Writers, we always welcome. However, as a writer the idea here is like this:

Pick a subsection from our outline that you're comfortable with, and write it! Be true to the topic, don't wander too far, and keep it simple. The more people contributing chapters, the better. Articles and additional guides are good, and I'm thinking that that will come. Later on. I don't want the goal of the guide to get lost. The guide is the main focus of the website, and I wish to hold off all other writings and articles until it is completed. From that point, we can move on an examine other articles/guides. But for now, so that this idea comes true, we wish to stick to the guide.

Jona has been so kind as to design the site, of which I'm ever so greatful. He does some really nice work, and the design is really starting to come together. Conor has been so gracious as to offer a domain name and hosting, and let us not impose upon him anymore than need be. I'm thrilled and amazed by people's enthusiasim; this will happen!

And to clear up any confusion, here's a home of info:

http://www.wdhaven.com/webdevguide/

[Conor]

Ill set up a subdomain until I can buy the domain, just got to do a couple things first.

[Jona]

Thanks for the link, Bob, I'll put the list in my dummy page...

[rhsunderground]

and will we have an little "who we are" section to add onto the list of who we are? like little mini-bios or something?

[Jona]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
and will we have an little "who we are" section?

A.K.A. "about"?

[rhsunderground]

Originally posted by Jona
A.K.A. "about"? Originally posted by rhsunderground
and will we have an little "who we are" section to add onto the list of who we are? like little mini-bios or something? yeah, i had an edit.

[Jona]

Oooh! I like that idea! An about section with mini-bios of the staff members and all that. Sounds great! :D

[Jona]

Originally posted by Conor
Ill set up a subdomain until I can buy the domain, just got to do a couple things first.

Sounds cool. :)

[Conor]

guide.urlshrink.net

I need to do some hw, I'll pm Jona the pass and others can ask him I guess

[Jona]

Sweet beans; thanks, Conor! :)

[Jona]

Connor, can you also PM me the host address? I tried a few, like ftp.complexfellow.com, guide.urlshrink.net, and others, but none of them work. :confused:

[Ben Rogers]

New URL for the outline. <http://projep.no-ip.com:81/test/forum/guide/>
Also, I'll be writing The Basics>Body>The Tags (meaning just the section on tags), I've already started, but I'm tired...

[Conor]

jona its ftp.urlshrink.net

[sharkey]

if its ok with all you guys can i write this section "Why SSIs are better than frames" i write on the review board about this section often enough:D but yeah ill wait for conformation before i start guys.


Cheers
P.S Yeah the mini bios thing sounds good.

[Jona]

It says it can't connect.

[MstrBob]

Sharkey, if you want, go right ahead. However, just be sure to:

1)Don't go in depth about SSI, since there is an SSI section, but give a brief description.
2)Back it up with as many reasons as possible and explain them as well
3)Be clear, concise, and not to technical.

Go ahead my man, write away. :D

Ah, I'm glad then that we've got hosting figured out. Thank you conor!

[Ben Rogers]

Originally posted by MstrBob
Thank you conor! Seconded.

And, when you're going to write about something, just say that you are, so we don't get repeats. No need to ask.

[Conor]

jona for the name put nameIgaveyou@urlshrink.net

[Jona]

...Oh... Oops. :o :D

[sharkey]

Cool mate id should have it done by tomorrow nite im tired just now just got back a while ago from TKD.

[Jona]

Um, Conor, the address is guide.urlshrink.net (http://guide.urlshrink.net/), not ftp.urlshrink.net... don't ask how many FTP programs I went through to figure that out... :p

[Conor]

ftp.urlshrink.net worked for me, I testd it......

[Jona]

Originally posted by Conor
ftp.urlshrink.net worked for me, I testd it......

Hm, that's odd... Anyway, can we use PHP or anything, or is it just HTML/CSS right now?

[MstrBob]

Yes, it's important to know if it's PHP/MySQL or not, since that's what I've planned the backend in. If not, it can always adapt...

[Jona]

Bob, I meant on this temporary server, unless this temporary server is really an alias to somewhere on complexfellow.com? Or did you just change name-servers for the subdomain, Conor? (If so, we have access to PHP/Perl/MySQL.)

[Conor]

we have php,mysql and stuff, complexfellow is on a different host.

[Jona]

Originally posted by Conor
we have php,mysql and stuff, complexfellow is on a different host.

Awesomosity.

[MstrBob]

I actually was referring to the final host, I'm sorry for the confusion. Good then, that's perfect! Work can start on the backend worry free. Thanks!

[Ben Rogers]

No offense, Bob, but if Jona doesn't mind, you might want to ask him for some help. I'm sure it could be quite niftositic if Jo- *ahem*, the two of you worked together on it. ^_^

[Conor]

uhh this is the final host bob,also someone ansert my question in the php forum :p

[MstrBob]

;) I'm not working on it alone. If Jona wishes, he can participate as well. So far, I've only been able to contact Paul about it, and we've simply been planning out the database structure. Once it's mapped out the coding will begin, but I prefer having it planned out as so. You could get off your lazy bum and do something as well, you know. :p


Edit: Ah, okay, I misread your prior posts then, sorry Conor. And truth be told, I've never worked with the GD library before, so I really couldn't help you. However, it should be quite possible.

[Conor]

the GD isnt quite would I need help with yet , look a couple posts down.

[Paul Jr]

Whoa, I come back and the thread is huge!

Anyways, we need some sort of real-time conference type thing — like a chatroom. However, since there are obvious time constraints (people live in the UK, 5-6 time difference), this might be hard? I just think all this posting back and forth here isn’t really enough. We need people who are involved with the development of the site — not necessarily writers, as the site has to be finished first — need to be able to throw ideas back and forth real-time. *Shrug* (P.S.: it also seems that people are having trouble contacting other people….)

I have one issue with the design, though: the “Guide List”; it’s difficult to tell what goes where (in terms of subcategories/sublists). The list either needs to be condensed, or we need some sort of dropdown menu? I mean, we aren’t just going to have pages for the articles — we need category pages and subcategory pages (y’know, click on “Design” and you come to a page with possibly a description then a list of subcategories/maybe articles that fall under the category “Design” ).


Anyways, my 0.2 cents. :D


***EDIT***
Jona, the site be borken: images don’t show.
Also, this is temporarily being hosted by Conor, right? What about FTP accounts/passwords? I assume the relevant information will be given out to the appropriate people, right…?

[Ben Rogers]

No, we need to get the content compiled before worrying about the site (the design of which isn't finished.) These are less important things that can be bothered with later.

I do agree with you on the chatroom, though. I suggest YIM or MSN, AIM is aevil.

[MstrBob]

(1) Conor has been so kind as to provide our hosting. He will be our host. Thanks for the millionth time, conor!

(2) Content will not be held back by site development. If others here wish to write, than they may do so. They can post their articles here until the site is up, and we can edit and collect them. Putting articles on hold for site development is what killed the Internet Bible idea...

(3) We really should set up a chat for those of us who can. Y! I think is a good choice. Some things need to be sorted out...

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Ben R.
No, we need to get the content compiled before worrying about the site (the design of which isn't finished.) These are less important things that can be bothered with later.
Since the idea itself is still in development, the content and development of the site are two separate things. Content is no good if the site does not exist, or is not functional. Both are equally important, but separate of each other during development. We need to get the site going, and the writers/editors need to write and edit. When the site is finished, the articles can then be hauled into the database.

Originally posted by Ben R.
I do agree with you on the chatroom, though. I suggest YIM or MSN, AIM is aevil.
Only thing is some people live far away; far enough for there to be a time difference. Three hours usually isn’t bad, but since school is out people have less time available for other things. Then there are the people who live in other countries; the UK is a whole five-to-six hour time difference.


***EDIT***
I guess the point I am trying to make is that people need to commit to what they are going to do, and do it. I also think that someone should not be involved in the content and development of the site. Writers and editors should go and do that; until the site is near complete, their only concern is writing and editing. Likewise, people involved in development need not worry about the articles just yet.

[Jona]

Paul, if you need the FTP username/pass, IM me. Also the graphics do load properly...

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Jona
Paul, if you need the FTP username/pass, IM me. Also the graphics do load properly...
Well, I don’t really need it right now I don’t think (is there anything there?). Also, the images didn’t load for me. :confused: All of them threw a 404.

[Jona]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
Well, I don’t really need it right now I don’t think (is there anything there?). Also, the images didn’t load for me. :confused: All of them threw a 404.

http://guide.urlshrink.net/ <-- it loads for me.

[MstrBob]

You know Jona, I don't believe I have your IM address. Come to think of it, I only know how to contact you through the boards. Same with Conor. For communications sake, you mind if we exchange contact info?

[Ben Rogers]

Myself
Yahoo : otacon2662
MSN : otacon2662@yahoo.com
AIM : tehsignsays

[rhsunderground]

jona, i know that you're still working on the site, but give it a looksee in opera.;)

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Jona
http://guide.urlshrink.net/ <-- it loads for me.
Oh, so that’s the site… :o
I was looking at the version on your server, Jona. I got the suffix wrong on the other one; I tried .com instead of .net. :D

If anyone needs my contact info (sheesh, why would you?) you can either PM me, or ask Bob. He knows my YIM ID.

[Conor]

conor1021 on yahoo, but Im on rarely if ever.

[rhsunderground]

MSN --- dui_247 at hotmail dot com
AIM --- skinnybtuba

[Paul Jr]

All right, since we’re all doing it…

AIM: SchizophrenicSTD (rarely on, if at all)
YIM: cssprophet
MSM: archery_freak298@hotmail.com (don’t ask)

I think Bob should put the username/address of whatever IM client we use most up next to our names on the volunteer list. You can put up YIM for me, since it’s shorter, I’m always on it, and…uhh…

[MstrBob]

YIM: MonComradeBob
AIM: MonComradeBob
Email: MonComradeBob (at) gmail (dot) com

If you want...

[Ben Rogers]

Put on YIM for me, as well. I sign off of AIM when people annoy me, so...

[MstrBob]

Your wish is my command...

[rhsunderground]

yeah ben, i guess it's ok that paul's info went up. i just didn't want paul to be pissed because his info was all over the net.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
yeah ben, i guess it's ok that paul's info went up. i just didn't want paul to be pissed because his info was all over the net.
Thank you, Rizzo. :)

[pawky]

msn: aessears at hotmail dot com
YIM: pawky_aes
email: pawkster at gmail dot com

[Stephen Philbin]

Ok. The first run of the glossary is done.

http://www.vagusnet.com/ste/glossary.html

Comments and words to be added?

[Paul Jr]

Two things.

Why not a definition list? It seems appropriate — term: definition.
WYSIWYG is an initialism, not an acronym, so I think the ABBR tag is more appropriate. :D

[Jona]

Besides, it's not WYSIWYG, it's WYSI(N)WYG. Also, it should be "non-standard markup and scripting translator," not "bad browser." ;)

[Stephen Philbin]

Originally posted by Jona
Besides, it's not WYSIWYG, it's WYSI(N)WYG. Also, it should be "non-standard markup and scripting translator," not "bad browser." ;)

Hehehe. I was sorely tempted to go into more detail (such as ripping into IE and WYSI(N)WYG editors), but I won the ferocious battle against my urge to do so. :D

[Jona]

Ah, I know how you feel. :D

[pawky]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
Two things.

2. WYSIWYG is an initialism, not an acronym, so I think the ABBR tag is more appropriate. :D


it is an acronym not an initialism ;P

acronym
ac·ro·nym
word formed from initials: a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words, for example, “NATO,” from the initial letters of “North Atlantic Treaty Organization”

[rhsunderground]

don't forget deprecated (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deprecated) :D

[pawky]

Originally posted by Mr Herer
Ok. The first run of the glossary is done.

http://www.vagusnet.com/ste/glossary.html

Comments and words to be added?

because we are also going to be going into CSS a bit w/ this I suggest two glossaries to begin with. The first one being what you currently have, explaining the basics. And then a second one that talks more about the CSS stuff like what w3.org has at http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1#terminology where it would include like child element, parent element, pseudo element, etc...

When we get into scripting and PHP in the future or whatever that could be included here as well. just my thought

[Reli4nt]

I dont think its a good idea to wait on the structure until after a bunch of articles are written. No one will want to sort through the mess at that point.

What you need is an outline, a draft. Since there will be a ton of input from a ton of people, you'll need a draft as a starting point. Once you have set a common vision (meaning outline, intended audience, walthrough vs. collection of idependent articles, etc.), then you should set up a series of threads all with a common subject line to organize everyone's efforts (ie WDG CSS; WDG HTML; WDG Webhosting; etc.). Lastly, just like forums have moderators for each category, so should this project have "chapter leaders" so to speak. Otherwise you end up with chaos, and loss of morale or one person spending too much time doing everything.

BTW: There are a ton of tutorials out there so there's no need to waste tme making another, but a walkthrough, if designed intelligently, could be very popular.

Anything you need just let me know.

[pawky]

Originally posted by Reli4nt
Lastly, just like forums have moderators for each category, so should this project have "chapter leaders" so to speak. Otherwise you end up with chaos, and loss of morale or one person spending too much time doing everything.

This is a great idea as it would give the different sections more of a stable method of writing. If different ppl edit the same section you will end up w/ more of a variation in writing style. And though this isnt really 'bad' it isnt really that helpful. It would be easier for one to read through a section and have the same or close to the same writing style the entire time.

currently we have:

EDITORS
Bob - (YIM: MonComradeBob)
Benny Boy - (YIM: otacon2662)
Paul (Grammar Enforcement) - (YIM: cssprophet)
Skinner (RHS, NavelMan, whatever) - (AIM: skinnybtuba)

WRITERS
Mr. Herer
Sharkey
Sciguyryan
Zach
Bob (me again)
Paul (perhaps?)
Daniel T.
Jick
Pawky
Paul C.
Pedro
Booooze

DEVELOPMENT TEAM
Jona (Designer)
Paul (PHP/MySQL development)
Conor (PHP/MySQl, and our Host) - (YIM: conor1021)
Bob (I'm everywhere)

for who wants to participate.

The editors should be assigned to a particular section and one sort of going very briefly over everything. So the thing would be broken into three sections w/ how many editors we have now (if there are more sections add an editor) with one 'head' editor (im guessing MstrBob atm). The reason for the head editore who 'briefly' runs through every article is to make sure the entire thing is keeping on the same track and not section is going in the direction it should be.

Next we have 12 for articles (Bob, i dont think you should do articles for quite a while as w/ how im saying u have a bit as well ;) but you will have a lot to do w/ editing) so 11 and paul is only a perhaps. So we have 10-11 writers. We should break them initially down into different groups so that everyone knows what they are writing. Once broken into the smaller groups (break them into a group they feel comforatable w/) they can meet in their smaller group w/ their editor (who is there to just give incite) and break it up into who will do what. This will give this whole thing a lot more structure. I think I included everything. :)

[Jick]

Dang! We could start our own army lol...

I for one think that a chain of command is a wonderful idea. I remember a few previous projects that got their start on these forums that fell apart because of the lack of organization. People were just going off doing their own thing which was not good at all. It ended up a mess rather than a useful thing.

I'm not sure what the best way would be to determine the chain but it is something that needs to be thought about. I suppose the best way would be to make the most experienced ones the leaders. One thing that will screw it up is making the leaders just the people that provide the most. Leadership should be determined from quality not quantity. I don't believe that someone should be made leader just because they are "providing the hosting" or "paying for the domain" or that kind of stuff. Just because they are supplying those resources doesn't make them an expert leader. (No offense to anybody. I know some of you are providing such resources)

[akadis]

I'd be happy to help. And you'll never guess this (or you might... but...) I decided to start a website to do this month or so ago. http://www.simplewebdev.com Since I was alone in it's creation it didn't get anywhere and I ditched what I had made, but I would be happy to donate / use it for the website you guys propose. I own the domain name and have hosting etc...
Oh, by the way: I know it is very hypocritical of me, but at the moment I don't have the time to read 15 pages of posts to see if you guys have a domain name / site yet. If you do I am sorry, feel free to flame me :p

I don't have YIM (I could get one if needed) but I can be reached at:
msn messenger: akadis2 at hotmail.com
aim: akadis2

[pawky]

Originally posted by Jick
Dang! We could start our own army lol...

I for one think that a chain of command is a wonderful idea. I remember a few previous projects that got their start on these forums that fell apart because of the lack of organization. People were just going off doing their own thing which was not good at all. It ended up a mess rather than a useful thing.

I'm not sure what the best way would be to determine the chain but it is something that needs to be thought about. I suppose the best way would be to make the most experienced ones the leaders. One thing that will screw it up is making the leaders just the people that provide the most. Leadership should be determined from quality not quantity. I don't believe that someone should be made leader just because they are "providing the hosting" or "paying for the domain" or that kind of stuff. Just because they are supplying those resources doesn't make them an expert leader. (No offense to anybody. I know some of you are providing such resources)

exactly, w/ o it there is a LOT of room for things to go wrong and astray. Personally I think it MstrBob would do good at 'heading' the whole thing and the other 3 ppl listed as editors would be directly under him each incharge of a different section. Assigned to them are other ppl that write the articles for that section only (after a while they can start doing some others as well IF they talk w/ the other group as well to make sure everything will work out fine). And lastly the developers, Jona and Conor and all arent really in the 'Chain of Command' but are off to the side for that part :) This I feel will give it enough structure and allow for room for movement.

[the tree]

I see that at http://guide.urlshrink.net/ there's a link to "about us" I'm good at writing that type of thing.

msn me: carpenter(dot)paul(at)gmail(dot)com
skype me: paulcarpenter

[Stephen Philbin]

Ok. The glossary is now in definition list format.

http://www.vagusnet.com/ste/glossary.html

[Jona]

Paul C., in the about us section and assuming it's all right with Bob, I was hoping for a miniature biography for each of the staff members -- of course, we'd have the main "about the site" section first, and then a listing of the staff members with a link to their mini-bio on another page. RHS's idea, but I like it. ;)

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by pawky
it is an acronym not an initialism ;P

acronym
ac·ro·nym
word formed from initials: a word formed from the initials or other parts of several words, for example, “NATO,” from the initial letters of “North Atlantic Treaty Organization”
It is not an acronym; SWAT is an acronym, SCUBA is an acronym, BASIC is an acronym. An acronym is basically a word that is made up of the first letter of several words.

[the tree]

If you can pronounce it it's an acronym. If you can't it's initialisation.

[Ben Rogers]

Well, we need markup and structure to be on there first of all.

Originally posted by pawky
Benny boy Never say that again, and we'll be... all set!

Originally posted by Reli4nt
What you need is an outline, a draft. For the 50th time, http://projep.no-ip.com:81/test/forum/guide/ . :rolleyes:

[Reli4nt]

I meant a draft, like a sample of a chapter so that everyone understands how things are going to be developed. If you compare an online tutorial to the style of a text book, to the style of Whatever for Dummies, to an encyclopedia, you get a huge range of styles and formats.

Format is what I meant, the overall outline is great.

Sorry that I wasnt being clear.

[Jona]

Just thought I'd let everyone know, I made some changes (http://guide.urlshrink.net/), which I thought appropriate. The addition of the search box means more work on the development team's end, but I think it is very important. I added a nifty JavaScript that initializes onload and does not require you to put any type of event-handlers on any text input elements -- they are all affected automatically. It just clears the default value of any text field onclick, and if the user puts something else in the text box, clicks elsewhere on the page (thus removing focus from the text box), and then clicks the text box again, the new value will be auto-selected.

[Conor]

looking good jona but I cant say I really like the footer.

[Jona]

Originally posted by Conor
looking good jona but I cant say I really like the footer.

Yeah... I'm gonna change that. Right now.

[Ben Rogers]

Originally posted by akadis
I'd be happy to help. And you'll never guess this (or you might... but...) I decided to start a website to do this month or so ago. http://www.simplewebdev.com Since I was alone in it's creation it didn't get anywhere and I ditched what I had made, but I would be happy to donate / use it for the website you guys propose. I own the domain name and have hosting etc...
Oh, by the way: I know it is very hypocritical of me, but at the moment I don't have the time to read 15 pages of posts to see if you guys have a domain name / site yet. If you do I am sorry, feel free to flame me :p It seems some of you missed this post (I know I did), so... yeah.

Jona, I liked the old navigation, but this one is pretty good, too, I suppose. ^^ Looking good, but would it be possible for the search bar to be on the right?

[Jona]

Fixed the footer. Ben, I don't know if I can or not. I'll play around with it, but floating it to the right might mean liquidation problems, once again. And, by the way, I did see Alex's post, but failed to respond to it and then forgot about it. My apologies.

[rhsunderground]

if everybody would email me a short 1-paragraph or so bio with the name you would prefer to be used on the site i'll organize them. send them to rhsunderground AT gmail DOT com

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Jona
Just thought I'd let everyone know, I made some changes (http://guide.urlshrink.net/), which I thought appropriate. The addition of the search box means more work on the development team's end, but I think it is very important.
Bring it on… :D

About the boi thing… do I need to send one in? There isn’t much to my life, and I don’t like writing biography-type things (especially when it’s my biography)… I’m a behind-the-scenes kind of person; no bio needed. :p

[Ben Rogers]

Paul, I wrote a bio, you have to do one as well. I'll help you, don't get your hemmies in a bunch, mmkay? :p

[Jona]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
About the boi thing… do I need to send one in? There isn’t much to my life, and I don’t like writing biography-type things (especially when it’s my biography)… I’m a behind-the-scenes kind of person; no bio needed. :p

You're still part of the team.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Jona
You're still part of the team.
Yeah, but I’m more like Batman. I lead a secret life (WD Guide developer) that no one knows about, where I do all sorts of cool things to help society and fight crime. :D :D :D

[rhsunderground]

you don't have to put a life story, just a wee-bit.

[Jona]

Originally posted by Paul Jr
Yeah, but I’m more like Batman. I lead a secret life (WD Guide developer) that no one knows about, where I do all sorts of cool things to help society and fight crime. :D :D :D

ROTFL. Nice. ;)

[Ben Rogers]

Batman was cool. You're not Batman. 'Nuff said. :D

Anyways, we'll have to make one up for you, you don't 'play along'.

[Paul Jr]

Originally posted by Jona
ROTFL. Nice. ;)
Oh yeah. You can call me Bruce from now on. :D

Ben: Batman is cool. I am cool. I am like Batman. Enough said.

[Jona]

The story of Paul Bruce Jr.'s life... :p

[MstrBob]

I go away for the day, and look at this. Messy, messy, Messy! :p Let's see if I can hit everything...

(1)Bob doesn't mind Bios, Bob thinks it is a good idea!
(2)Search Box is actually a good idea. Since everything will be in a database, should be relatively easy....
(3)Yes, we have website domain and hosting.
(4)We have an outline, yes we do. At this point, there's been more with recruiting people than with actually writing. Though, if someone is interested in writing something now, I'd be more than happy to assist in that process.
(5)I like the whole glossary idea. Leads to interesting possibilites and more ideas....
(6)Yes, leadership is obviously important, WHICH IS WHY YOU MUST BOW DOWN AND PRAISE ME!!! erm, sorry, j/k back to the real point. We are organizing this all as we speak. It's evolving, and rather quickly. I like that better than simply appointing, because it's giving an opportunity for more people to join in. Some have who I wouldn't have thought about. As our numbers grow, the structure is becoming more apparent. Ben likes bossing people around, so there you go. Though Paul is backend, well, he'll crucify me with his grammar rules. Skinner a la mod is reliable. Conor is on web development, but if he wanted to and honestly had the time, we'd welcome him. :) Obviously, we don't want a huge editorial group, it should be smaller and thus more efficient. But, if your interested, let me know, and we'll see if we can work something out.
(7) Hrmm, anything else I left out?

[MstrBob]

Mr Herer, I'm really liking the glossary. However, may I suggest that this be removed:


Teh

Teh (or the more formal version "t3h"), a word used to indicate one or more persons or objects. Used only by persons that may be considered "1337". These persons are also highly likely to "Roxorz yuor b0x0rz". You have been warned.


Though, this would be a good generally warning when dealing with the nerds around here :p I don't think (/hope) we'll be using the "word" "teh".

[rhsunderground]

i can't recall, but is there a note about leet in the dictionary? if people are spending much time online, they're pry going to run into leet eventually.

[MstrBob]

Originally posted by rhsunderground
i can't recall, but is there a note about leet in the dictionary? if people are spending much time online, they're pry going to run into leet eventually.

However true that may be, it isn't the focus of this website. As not pertaining to website development, it really should not be placed in the glossary. Let us not go off in multiple directions here...

[Ben Rogers]

Uhm, is <sup> considered presentational markup?

[MstrBob]

No, but it is deprecated. The correct tag to use should be:

<hello>

[rhsunderground]

i think that using stuff like that could EASILY confuse a lot of people.