Isreal vs.

[theuedimaster]

Okay, okay, many people have argued against me that Israel really has good intentions. All the palestinian casulties, some argue, are due to the fact that they just want to protect themselves.....okay, I can maybe give just a little on that. But look at this man. No excuse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1329830,00.html

Note: This is not a Jewish bashing thread or anti-Israeli because we always hate israelis or something thread. This is just analyzing a government's actions which are totally inexcusable.

[chrismartz]

hopefully soon all will be calm

[theuedimaster]

Originally posted by sirhcchris3
hopefully soon all will be calm

We always hope so. I'm with you man!

[PeOfEo]

I did not have time to read that. But israel has a reason for everything they do. They do not flatten villiages because it makes them feel good. Look for the reason. I will read that and poke around tomorrow. Night'

[Stephen Philbin]

I know far too little about the whole thing to form a valid opinion. I will say though that it does seem to fall under the same sort of theme as most suffering. That being religion. Religion has got to be the single greatest cause of pain, misery and suffering the world has ever seen.


Oh yeah...... Feel the love folks.

[theuedimaster]

Uhh...last time I checked, there is no good reason to flatten a village and give people 3 minutes to leave their homes before it is destroyed. Protection at the cost of destroying the homes and lives of thousands without giving them the slightest chance of preparing, and without their consent? Talk about an infringement of rights. Oh wait, I forgot, to the israeli's, the palestenians don't have any rights.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by theuedimaster
Uhh...last time I checked, there is no good reason to flatten a village and give people 3 minutes to leave their homes before it is destroyed. Protection at the cost of destroying the homes and lives of thousands without giving them the slightest chance of preparing, and without their consent? Talk about an infringement of rights. Oh wait, I forgot, to the israeli's, the palestenians don't have any rights. I said it was a good idea to do that in falluja. Give them 3 days to pack up then line up the artillary and begin to fire. The only ones who would not dare leave the villiage surrounded by tanks would be al sauder's militia. I cannot comment on this Israel situation without looking into this more deeply, but I refuse to believe they did this without having an overwhelmingly good reason. Especially with all the nasty letters they have been getting from the UN. Israel is really deaminized by the rest of the world, but they are just doing what is neccessary, I and I am going to look into this because I think this too was probably neccessary.

[theuedimaster]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
I said it was a good idea to do that in falluja. Give them 3 days to pack up then line up the artillary and begin to fire.

Even that man, give someone 3 days to leave their homes? Not fair.
Originally posted by PeOfEo

I cannot comment on this Israel situation without looking into this more deeply, but I refuse to believe they did this without having an overwhelmingly good reason.

Oh, when you read the article, I believe you will see that the Israeli government is truly the bad guy in this situation. There's a reason the rest of the world is shouting complaints about the situation. When you have the rest of the world shouting at you, you're definetly doing SOMETHING wrong. Don't think that the Israeli's are always the good guys. Thats just being stubborn and ignorant.

P.S I know.....I'm starting another war in here......

edit: ok, lets just analyze this event. sorry.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by theuedimaster
Even that man, give someone 3 days to leave their homes? Not fair. sure it is, it gets rid of the bad guys, spares the blood of the innocents and the good guys. You give people time to move their valubles and we rebuild the homes and give them a small lump of money to compensate for the inconveiniance and some loss.


Oh, when you read the article, I believe you will see that the Israeli government is truly the bad guy in this situation. There's a reason the rest of the world is shouting complaints about the situation. When you have the rest of the world shouting at you, you're definetly doing SOMETHING wrong. Don't think that the Israeli's are always the good guys. Thats just being stubborn and ignorant. deciding on an issue based on one article is also stubborn and ignorant. Israel is deamonized by the world because they are not wusses like the un wants them to be. Israel ignores the un because they want to do something about people blowing up their busses. The un wants israel to shake arafat hand even though arafat has his fingers crossed. Arafat was the leader of the plo... yet he has a nobel peace prize. You do not see a problem with that?

I can't comment on this villiage thing until I look into it. Now at this time I am in bed.

[steelersfan88]

Bomb the Palestinians. They've caused trouble in the Near East for centuries.

Ariel Sharon is not the problem, and neither is it Ahmed Qorei's fault. Both of these guys are very cooperative, although this is not from experience :D. The people are radicals, and would rather die for their country than to live in fear. Kinda like terrorists, except more of a nationalism basis.

[theuedimaster]

Originally posted by steelersfan88
Bomb the Palestinians. They've caused trouble in the Near East for centuries.

Ariel Sharon is not the problem, and neither is it Ahmed Qorei's fault. Both of these guys are very cooperative, although this is not from experience :D. The people are radicals, and would rather die for their country than to live in fear. Kinda like terrorists, except more of a nationalism basis.

These are the attitudes of the people who make up our country.....god help us...if there is one anyways...

[steelersfan88]

No, this is the attitude the people of our country should have. It is too bad that the majority of the country doesn't realize that behind Great Britain, whom America has no greater friend, that Israel is our closest allied country.

OH, the agony of this generation. And it is unfortunate that it is someone from this generation will eventually be a politician. God help it be none of us ..

[theuedimaster]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
deciding on an issue based on one article is also stubborn and ignorant. Israel is deamonized by the world because they are not wusses like the un wants them to be.

This article is from a well reputed media resource. Believe me, I think they'd have a hard time making this all up. Especially with all the physical proof. Using a well reputed media resource with FACTS is good support of an argument. Yes. Facts. Whether you like it or not, the Israelis are doing bad stuff. Read the article. There is no way you can say that is good. That is going extreme. And that whole thing about the reason that Israel is looked upon badly by the majority of the world....can't you admit that it just might be another reason? Maybe there is a reason for billions of people being pis*%d off at country :rolleyes: .

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by theuedimaster
This article is from a well reputed media resource. Believe me, I think they'd have a hard time making this all up. Especially with all the physical proof. Using a well reputed media resource with FACTS is good support of an argument. Yes. Facts. Whether you like it or not, the Israelis are doing bad stuff. Read the article. There is no way you can say that is good. That is going extreme. And that whole thing about the reason that Israel is looked upon badly by the majority of the world....can't you admit that it just might be another reason? Maybe there is a reason for billions of people being pis*%d off at country :rolleyes: . One article? You expect me to say oh man israel did this because they are big meanies because one article says that? Hey buddy, every media source has a bias, some source mroe then others. But everyone has a Bias, that is why you look at what several sources are saying and form your own opinions. CBS had a good reputation too you know.

here is what I have determined thus far: The places that were demolished were not cities towns or villiages... they were camps. Refugee camps. They were not long term settlements. There people living in those settlements are going to be compensated. Many jews are being moved out of the Gaza strip which will take off some of the tension in that area. They were right on the egyption border where arms smuggleing had been taking place. Egypt is not doing what it needs to be doing to cap the smuggleing so Israel intends to tighten their grip on that region. They were given that land in a 1979 peace treated with egypt. But from the spin in the article you posted, it made it sould like the Israely forces just wanted to go and wreck some palestian lives with no reason. This article has a lot of junk from an organization named human rights watch in it. I have seen a few others and it is just basically a bunch of quotes from this organization rather then investigative reporting. I have really only seen their side of the story and the Israely statements. The Human rights watch organization though has proven to be anti israely and even anti american in the past. Reuters had an article about this same issue and it was about the same thing "Human rights watch said this", but really nothing more then that.

[theuedimaster]

Okay dude I believe this is why Israel is pummling the Palestinians from their homes. Of course there is a reason that they are doing this, I am not an ignorant bas&t*rd like some..... :rolleyes: Anyways, the Israeli's believe that they should seperate themselves from the Palestians for protection purposes, and are literally putting up walls to seperate themselves from them....(funny, 15 years ago we were shouting "Tear Down the Wall!!!" :rolleyes: )... Now they literally want to make a physical barren zone between jewish settlements and palestinans. They are literally bull dozing homes, yes refugee camps are peoples homes dude, there is a reason they're over there, to make a safe zone around themselves. Seriously, think about it, its totally demeaning to the Palestinian people... Its okay to destroy their homes right.... And about the compensation, the Palestinians are getting NONE! The Israel government is paying thousands of dollars to get Jewish settles out of the gaza strip, not the other way round. I don't understand how you can numb the situation down so much with your words PeOfEo. Obviously you don't care about lives that much. Oh wait, you only care for Jewish and American lives right? Who cares about anyone else.... :rolleyes:


from article

While Mr Sharon agonises over how to draw 7,500 Jewish settlers out of Israel's Gaza colonies - offering hundreds of thousands of dollars in compensation to each family - the army has already bulldozed close to 9,000 Palestinians from their homes in the Gaza strip this year alone.


But in recent weeks there has also been widespread destruction of homes as the army widened the "security zone" around Netzarim Jewish settlement, and in the Palestinian towns of Beit Hanoun and Beit Lehia.

Even after Israel pulls its settlers and soldiers out of the Gaza strip, it will remain the occupying power under international law, and it intends to strengthen its grip on the territory's borders. The disengagement plan speaks of "widening the area" along the Philadelphi road.


From PeOfEo
The Human rights watch organization though has proven to be anti israely and even anti american in the past.


Its okay for someone to stand up to a country to show their values and morality, even if it is their own country. I have disagreed and hated many of the things America, my country, has done. But I love it so much that I wish to show the people what they are really doing. That is not anti-american.

[PeOfEo]

Its anti american to go after america about abu ghraib and the guantanamo prison camps when we are at war. Sure screw ups happen but to try to call america the great satan for a few nude prisoners is preposterous.




Refugee camps are not homes. A refugee camp is not a house, it is a temporary settlement for a refugee to reside in until they have a perminant place. It only fulfills the basic human need of shelter for a limited period of time. Camps are not produced on the fly with the intent of lasting years and years and years. It is not like they payed 200 grand for house and proerty.

I am anti palestinian militant. I refuse to acknowledge the existence of any palestian state because before Israel there was no palestine. There was syria. The arab population in Israel is quite large in relationship with the jewish population. I have no problems with that. The only people I do not like are the fundamentalists who cannot come to grips with the fact that some 'filthy jews' are on their land. The majority of the world is anti israel. The un certainly is. They denigh her the right to do what is neccessary to defend herself. Israel wants a wall to force people to use the borwser crossings so they can make sure weapons are not entering her borders, but what the heck that is evil because it slices apart a villiage? What the heck, it is all of a sudden a massive land grab when it is surrounding lands that the jews have been on for years that they took in times of war and some of it as part of a treaty?

Height of hypocrisy: A palestiniant militant straps explosives to a mule. It killed something like 10 jews. Peta pisses and moans about the poor mule, no one pisses and moans for the poor jews who were killed by the explosion.

This video is about how the palestinian media is anti israel and actually encourages the killing of jews:
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-352.ram

[theuedimaster]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Its anti american to go after america about abu ghraib and the guantanamo prison camps when we are at war. Sure screw ups happen but to try to call america the great satan for a few nude prisoners is preposterous.

Don't try to dodge it sir. What they did was bad. Even worse, people hate us because of people like you who don't care.


Refugee camps are not homes. A refugee camp is not a house, it is a temporary settlement for a refugee to reside in until they have a perminant place. It only fulfills the basic human need of shelter for a limited period of time. Camps are not produced on the fly with the intent of lasting years and years and years. It is not like they payed 200 grand for house and proerty.

I ask you PeOfEo, have you ever been out of the U.S before? Have you been to a third world country and see people living in "temporary" housing. I'll tell you one thing, people don't leave. That is their home. A vicous cycle of poverty and helplessness, don't try to follow the textbook definition of "refugee camp". It is their home, and you better believe me, sometimes, it is the only thing that they have. I doubt you've seen the poverty that I have, it is sickening. To destroy these people's homes for a stupid ignorant wall and the protection of the few is an adombination.

I am anti palestinian militant. I refuse to acknowledge the existence of any palestian state because before Israel there was no palestine. There was syria. The arab population in Israel is quite large in relationship with the jewish population. I have no problems with that. The only people I do not like are the fundamentalists who cannot come to grips with the fact that some 'filthy jews' are on their land. The majority of the world is anti israel. The un certainly is. They denigh her the right to do what is neccessary to defend herself. Israel wants a wall to force people to use the borwser crossings so they can make sure weapons are not entering her borders, but what the heck that is evil because it slices apart a villiage? What the heck, it is all of a sudden a massive land grab when it is surrounding lands that the jews have been on for years that they took in times of war and some of it as part of a treaty?

They want Israel to make peace their primary option. Trying to make a great defense at the cost of many lives is not acceptable. You can defend, but the attacks will always come. There must be active reform to stop the war. This means talking to the Palestinians. This means talking to the militants and telling them enough is enough. This war has taken too many casulties. We may have done wrong in the past, we admit that, but you have also. We are only destroying ourselves. We want peace. Talk to these terrorist groups and say we are willing to be at peace with you. We will give up the war for peace. Lets start from scratch, the sides will never be balanced if we keep going. Tell the Palestinian people how dedicated you are for peace and make them rise up with you against those who threaten its existence. Thats how you get peace. Israel must take drastic action. Them being the civilized nation that they claim, it is their duty to solve this problem in a civil fashion.


Height of hypocrisy: A palestiniant militant straps explosives to a mule. It killed something like 10 jews. Peta pisses and moans about the poor mule, no one pisses and moans for the poor jews who were killed by the explosion.

Excuse me sir, you can't judge that. A life is a life my friend. You are stuck in a world of hatred and grudges. Get over it. I feel it to be an insult that you say no one cares if a jewish or an israelite dies. Its this attitude that will never allow the war to end. People do care my friend, don't worry.



This video is about how the palestinian media is anti israel and actually encourages the killing of jews:
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-352.ram

Hmm...only looking at one source of palestinian media to judge everybody? I thought better of you!! :)

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by theuedimaster
Don't try to dodge it sir. What they did was bad. Even worse, people hate us because of people like you who don't care. dodge it? Lol, the fact that this group is anti american and highly liberal?



I ask you PeOfEo, have you ever been out of the U.S before? Have you been to a third world country and see people living in "temporary" housing. I'll tell you one thing, people don't leave. That is their home. A vicous cycle of poverty and helplessness, don't try to follow the textbook definition of "refugee camp". It is their home, and you better believe me, sometimes, it is the only thing that they have. I doubt you've seen the poverty that I have, it is sickening. To destroy these people's homes for a stupid ignorant wall and the protection of the few is an adombination. Israel is not a third world country. The housing was temporary.


They want Israel to make peace their primary option. Trying to make a great defense at the cost of many lives is not acceptable. You can defend, but the attacks will always come. There must be active reform to stop the war. This means talking to the Palestinians. This means talking to the militants and telling them enough is enough. Which has not worked and will never work because of the fact the arafat is at the top of their little group and he himself was a terrorist and was leader of the PLO. He is not doing crap, he is just sitting there and smiling and some how he has a nobel peice prize. What do you think the roadmap to peace is? It was a bunch of talking, a bunch of empty rhetoric because Arafat had no intentions of doing anything. Israel had to sit on its hands because it was forced into the whole situation knowing nothing would come from it, if Israel does anything these days the un and the world community send them nasty little letters about how they are not being peaceful. I say putting a millile through the window of a Humas leaders window is perfectly legit, but that is not what the world community says.

We will give up the war for peace. Lets start from scratch, the sides will never be balanced if we keep going. Tell the Palestinian people how dedicated you are for peace and make them rise up with you against those who threaten its existence. Thats how you get peace. Israel must take drastic action. Them being the civilized nation that they claim, it is their duty to solve this problem in a civil fashion. unfortunatly to give up the war means to leave israel.



Excuse me sir, you can't judge that. A life is a life my friend. You are stuck in a world of hatred and grudges. Get over it. I feel it to be an insult that you say no one cares if a jewish or an israelite dies. Its this attitude that will never allow the war to end. People do care my friend, don't worry. ROTFL. Israel is crapped on by the world community when they prevent palestinian bombers from killing their civilians. What don't you understand about that?

[Jick]

Ok, this is starting to get a little rough. Let's clean it up or I will have to lock this...

[DaveSW]

The problem is that a thread about Israel will always be rough...

It works in a cycle:

Palesinians send in suicide bombers to get revenge.
Israel bulldozes camps it believes are being used to train these people.
Palesinians send in suicide bombers to get revenge.
Israel bulldozes camps it believes are being used to train these people.
Palesinians send in suicide bombers to get revenge.
Israel bulldozes camps it believes are being used to train these people.
Palesinians send in suicide bombers to get revenge.
Israel bulldozes camps it believes are being used to train these people.
Palesinians send in suicide bombers to get revenge.
Israel bulldozes camps it believes are being used to train these people.
Palesinians send in suicide bombers to get revenge.
Israel bulldozes camps it believes are being used to train these people.

And there is no way that loop is going to stop unless something seriously drastic happens. e.g. either one of the nations disappearing, or both. Some of the extremist Palestinian groups have an avowed intention to drive Israel into the sea, so any suggestion of compromise isn't going to get very far.

And btw, I've got no idea which one should come first in that loop above - it's a 'Which came first, the chicken or the egg" situation, except that the answer to the chicken thing is obvious. An egg wouldn't hatch without a chicken to sit on it.

[PeOfEo]

Israel was established. There s a palestinian outcry, then boom 6 day war with egypt. Then several years later boom the yom kippor war, us gives israel nukes because it looks like the soviet union is going to come down to israel while egypt is outfitted with their equipment from the south. But the fighting started when Israel was established, because when you get right down to it, a lot of muslems just hate the jews.

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Jick
Ok, this is starting to get a little rough. Let's clean it up or I will have to lock this... There has been no name calling. This has been nothing but a civil discussion. Theuedimaster and I are argueing about something we disagree about and it has been civil. Why lock a perfectly civil debate thread.

[Jick]

It just seems to me that it has become a little rougher than necessary. I don't see why an argument must take place for you both to state your opinions...

It might be cool now but I can see this becoming a problem eventually. I wasn't saying I was closing it, I was merely giving a warning before something does happen. I don't want to have to close it.

[theuedimaster]

Sorry PeofEo, too much homework today. I'll post tommorow for sure :)