The easiest language?

[Learning]

Hi.

I was just wondering what in your opinion is the easiest programming language to learn except XHTML (I already know that) I want to learn another language but i want to start with an easy one because my memory isn't very good and i'd like to build it up with an easy language.

Thanks a lot

:);)

[Charles]

The ease or difficulty or ease of a language will depend upon what you are trying to do.

There are some languages that, like C and C++, get very close to the computer. If you want to write code that runs at peak efficiency then you want to learn one of those languages. And then there are languages that get very close to certain problems. Perl, the best language ever written, is very good with manipulating text but things get ugly when you try to parse XML or SGML. And don't get me started on Perl's inconsistent implementation of objects. XSLT is perfect for manipulating and translating XML but worthless for anything else. JavaScript gets very close to the kinds of problems one might expect to encounter working with a web page, but it has very limited ability to work with numbers.

That said, I would suggest that you study both Perl and JavaScript. The two are from completely different families but they nonetheless have a lot in common. In Perl one is encouraged to get everything down to the fewest lines of code possible - a discipline that will greatly improve your JavaScript work. By way of another example, Perl's has a data structure called a hash that is extremely useful. And the hash often allows one to really shorten the code, often eliminating long strings of "if" statements. In JavaScript one can use an Object as a associative array and mimic Perl's hash.

That said, I can tell from you post that you really don't know XHTML. It's not a programming language and it's not that easy to learn. I would start by really learning XHTML. Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/.

[Learning]

I thought that XHTML was just a better structured version of HTML?

Is there a lot more to it than that?

Thanks for your help

:)

[Charles]

HTML isn't a programming language.

[Robert Wellock]

Essentially eXtensible HyperText Markup Language (XHTML) is an application of eXtensible Markup Language (XML) and is known as Markup Language rather than a Programming Language.

[bellybytes]

Sigh. I feel so stupid when I read stuff like this. :(

I was just looking at some Perl/CGI tutorials - am I correct that the two go hand in hand, or can one or the other stand alone? if that sounds stupid, that's cuz I am with this stuff!! ;)

[Charles]

The Common Gateway Interface (CGI, http://hoohoo.ncsa.uiuc.edu/cgi/intro.html) Is a behind-the- scenes way that programs on a computer can use the internet to communicate with each other. Hyper Text Transfer Protocol (HTTP) is a what happens over the internet itself and CGI is the link between a script or program and HTTP. Those scripts are commonly written in the bestest computer language that there is, Perl, or some other, inferior language.

[bellybytes]

Thanks - I get it (I think) - at least the idea, anyway!

[PeOfEo]

If you know XHTML you alredy know html, I like to think of XHTML as just a newer more powerful (a lot more powerful) html. If you learn an actual language learn VB C++ or C. That whould be my tryfecta. Those are programming languages that can be used in both offline and online applications. Java even but thats sun microsystems... nobody likes them :D

[jeffmott]

PeOfEo
...but thats sun microsystems... nobody likes them
Why is this? I think you confused with VB, since it is M$ nobody likes (if they have any sense that is). ;)

[bellybytes]

If you learn an actual language learn VB C++ or C. That whould be my tryfecta. Those are programming languages that can be used in both offline and online applications.


:( That's above my head...sniff...wish it weren't. Sometimes I think I've learned so much, but then I see all there is to learn - feel like I've only scratched the surface. I've never gotten into XHTML - heck, haven't even delved into DHTML yet! I'm still raw at CSS!!

Sigh. Is XHTML difficult? Just what does it do anyway?

...but thats sun microsystems... nobody likes them

On this note, I HATE Sun and would take Microsoft VB any day. Since the lawsuit, I've had nothing but grief with Sun and now just gave up applets and what-nots that require Sun's JAVA. It's so slow - when I had Microsoft's VB, applets and such loaded so fast I didn't even know it was JAVA - then came SUN - and I LEARNED!! :mad:

[Charles]

Originally posted by bellybytes
Sigh. Is XHTML difficult? Just what does it do anyway?XHTML is simply HTML with some stricter rules so that is can be easily "transformed" by programs. There is something called XSLT that is a grammer for describing this transformation and the two combined are very powerful.

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by bellybytes
............... Since the lawsuit, I've had nothing but grief with Sun ........... LEARNED!! :mad:

By the way its the Microsoft that decided not to include the Suns JVM with there windowsXP versions to add in your grievance not the SUN..:-)

Originally posted by bellybytes
.......... It's so slow - when I had Microsoft's VB, ......

Be at least fair, any product that you usually run on windows from MS is mostly half way running in the system already and when you click on an icon it seems to run fast,on the other hand for java based products they have to start al together gathering system resources and setting the info to run a program hence they are comparatively slower
Point is its not java's falut.
With VB products its like home ground and home crowd in a baseball match...:-)

Cheers

Khalid

[jeffmott]

This was brought to my attention from another forum. See what else M$ has been up to http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1023-984632.html.

Microsoft does everything it can to give the illusion to users that their products are better. Don't be fooled by their propaganda.

[bellybytes]

Well, each to their own - I just don't like SUN and don't see why I should "have to", or try to be discouraged on Microsoft...I think I am perfectly capable of knowing what works better with my system than SUN anyway - or what I prefer. I am the one who has to work on/with it every day, after all. Besides, I happen to like Microsoft's products and have no problem with anyone being highly successful in life. On the contrary, I think it's great Bill Gates accomplished all he did - it's the American dream come true. And it can happen to anyone. Let Sun make a better product than Microsoft instead of suing for the money. honestly, no one wants to or respects working for, anything anymore. Shame.

I sure as shootin' don't want to come in here to argue about Sun vs. Microsoft - those of you who enjoy all the derision can take care of that kind of thing from here on. :rolleyes:

[PeOfEo]

I AM NOT A FAN OF SUN LET ME TELL YOU THIS RIGHT NOW!
I dont think microsoft should be penilised for being the best... they are poineers and are better then sun in every way. Besides java is useless and I am being forced to learn it because sun microsysems out bid microsoft on the ap exams. I whould much rather get into c++ more but I am stuck learning stupid java. I hold this language and its creator in low reguard.

[jeffmott]

Let Sun make a better product than Microsoft instead of suing for the money
I'm not sure what money you're referring to since Java is completely free. The lawsuit was over the fact that Microsoft broke a contractural agreement to build a Windows-only version of Java, destroying the universality of the language (the write once, run everywhere concept that makes Java popular). Microsoft uses its resources to undermine advances in software technology rather than build something better. This is a behaviour that is also apparent in the article I posted earlier.

I dont think microsoft should be penilised for being the best
The best at what? Building new technologies or destorying them? Because they're doing far much more of the latter.

and are better then sun in every way
What ways are those? The 'just cause' argument doesn't hold up very well.

Besides java is useless
Just cause?

I whould much rather get into c++ more but I am stuck learning stupid java
In what way is Sun preventing you from picking up a book on C++?

[Zach Elfers]

Well Java isn't my favorite language, but I don't hate it! Microsoft is not the best!

[bellybytes]

Have fun guys - I'm not going to waste my time arguing with any of you over this - not worth it. I do stand by what I said and think we all have a right to like what we like and not like what we don't like. I'm certainly not going to change my personal preferences because of any prattle I read. I reiterate, I LIKE Microsoft, I LIKE Bill Gates and from all I've read, I don't see it the way Mr. Contentious does - way off the mark, in fact, but hey - I live in a country where our freedom to express our opinions is a costly gift, so bark away - I respect your right to feel the way you do. Now I simply ask you respect mine.

[PeOfEo]

Its not the fact that I can pick up a book on c++, I alredy have one or two and I have c++ on my computer alredy. Its the fact that I cannot learn it in school from a qualified professional who knows all these languages (my teacher) because sun out bid microsoft for ap exams. I get screwed over in that case. I dont want to use java, I don't think it is as capable or as good as c++. You can also argue that c++ if a fairly universal language. Microsoft was the original company in the computer industry they were poineers. Lets face it they chaged the whole industry. I bet your on a windows based machine. There is the slight chance that you are on a mac and a still slighter chance that you are on a unix machine (even though I am a fan of lynnx, lets face it, it is not widly used) You have to admid that microsoft is the best because the shaped the market and made computers what they are today. We should not penilize them for having a better language, better products, and just being head and shoulders above every other computer corperation to this day.

[jeffmott]

because sun out bid microsoft for ap exams
It was a decision by the CollegeBoard to switch to Java due to its rising popularity in the field and the corresponding decline of C++. The language they chose to teach doesn't just go out to the highest bidder. There are real reasons for the change.

I dont want to use java, I don't think it is as capable or as good as c++
That's fine. That's your opinion. I personally enjoy using Perl. But in the workplace Java is growing, and you don't get to tell your boss "this is what I prefer so this is what I'm gonna do". Be happy your school is teaching Java, it'll help you get and keep a job. And although being taught by an instructor is [sometimes] quicker and easier, you'll find it difficult to go back to school every time a new language comes into use. If you can't teach yourself new languages relatively painlessly, you won't last very long.

You can also argue that c++ if a fairly universal language
C++ is a compiled language and therefore needs to be rebuilt for different systems. Java does not (write once, run everywhere). This is the universality I was referring to. Just as standardizing the Web so it'll be the same in every browser on every platform (a goal most hindered by Microsoft), a Java program is able to run the same on all platforms (a goal that was almost destroyed by Microsoft if not for the lawsuit).

Microsoft was the original company in the computer industry they were poineers
DOS was bought extremely cheap from a small computer company in Seattle who didn't realize what they had. Microsoft did not invent DOS, they swindled it. Microsoft was not the pioneers of graphical user interfaces, Apple was. Windows was a rip off of the Macintosh (this also prompted a lawsuit, the first in a long history of Microsoft's infringements). They've conned or stolen more than they've actually created themselves. Microsoft remains popular due to dishonest (and often illegal) business tactics rather than having better software. Just as the case with Java; a new technology that posed a threat to their business. Microsoft resorted to illegal (hence the lawsuit) tactics in an effort to destory it while it is still in its relative infancy.

You have to admid that microsoft is the best because the shaped the market and made computers what they are today
Windows, Internet Explorer, IIS, and other Microsoft software has had more bugs and security holes than virtually all of its competitors. That's just a fact.

[PeOfEo]

Windows, Internet Explorer, IIS, and other Microsoft software has had more bugs and security holes than virtually all of its competitors. That's just a fact.

But their software is also the most advanced and sophisticated. When you make windows internet explorer etc you are a forerunner and you pave the way for other like netscape, you get all of the bumps when you are in front. So they get bugs... they fix them.

[PeOfEo]

just face it without microsoft we would be back in the stone ages

[jeffmott]

Feel free to elaborate on what you consider to be more advanced or sophisticated about MS products. I don't see any features that aren't available in competing software.

just face it without microsoft we would be back in the stone ages
Based on that same logic (if you can call that logic) I could deduce that without VHS, home viewing would be back in the stone ages. But this is of course completely false. VHS won out by marketing. If VHS had never existed Betamax (a product better than VHS) would have taken hold.

Microsoft has crushed so many software packages and companies in its time (through dishonest business tactics and specifically for the reason that this new software was better than theirs) that the IT industry quite probably could have flourished even more than it has.

The open source project is now helping along the industry. With far better software being offered for free, even Microsoft can't hide it away. Projects such as Linux, Apache, and Mozilla.

[PeOfEo]

What I consider advanced is the fact that microsoft has the most up to date technology. For example internet explorer has been the most advanced browser for a long long time. It was just recently when ns6 was introduced as an IE equal. Also look how many people they employ. If you really want microsoft to go out of buisness think of what that whould do to the computer industry. My friend zack was just layed off from micron, he graduated from the top of his class in highschool and got a full colledge scolarship. He knows what hes doing. If they fired him you alredy know there is a surplus in the computer industry of programmers. Now if microsoft went out of business so many people would be layed off and it would be devistating for the computer industry, also it would create massive economic fallout. We are in a recession and it is not getting any better. How would going after microsoft help any

[pyro]

Originally posted by jeffmott
the IT industry quite probably could have flourished even more than it has. I'd say that almost for certain it would have. Competition is _always_ a good thing. It serves to keep companies like Micro$oft from becoming monopolistic. Let's face it, Microsoft can basically do whatever they want and people will have to agree to it, because, for general users, there is no alternative...Microsoft crushed (crush) all alternatives before they are able to become big enough to become a problem for them.

As far as Microsoft making the best products, I'm not so sure... Unfortunatly, Microsoft has 90% (an educated guess) of the market, so that means that 90% of people use Microsoft products. This will certainly mean that Microsoft has the most popular product, but that doesn't mean that they make the best. Also, with 90%+ of the the programs being written are written for Windows.

Originally posted by PeOfEo
For example internet explorer has been the most advanced browser for a long long time.Did you ever think why they were the most advanced browser around? (hint: think proprietary tags) Even though they are members of the WC3, they don't care about the guildlines set forth by the WC3, thus pushing standardization further and further away. Acording to The Web Standards Project (http://www.webstandards.org), Web desingers waste 25% of their time devising work arounds for proprietay tags, most of which were made by Microsoft. Netscape, also a memeber of the W3C, is coming much closer to the specifications set forth by that committee.

[jeffmott]

jeffmott
Feel free to elaborate on what you consider to be more advanced or sophisticated about MS products
PeOfEo
What I consider advanced is the fact that microsoft has the most up to date technology
Elaborate means to express in greater length and detail, not replace with another generalized statement that says the same thing.

If you really want microsoft to go out of buisness think of what that whould do to the computer industry [economic fallout]
That's a different topic for an economics forum. But all the jobs currently available by Microsoft would not be just gone, they'd be replaced by the businesses that would have existed if not for Microsoft.

[PeOfEo]

So you think that microsoft's pushing standards furthur is a bad thing? You think we should dumb down the internet? Also microsoft has not "crushed all of its competicion" other wise novel, maker of word perfect would be gone, also lynnx and mac would be used by nobody, and what about lyndows. Microsft has not gotten rid of them yet and they are making their system with one letter different then windows just to piss microsoft off. I like microsoft, ok. They have revolusionised computers as we know it nd when you say they "stole" products, half the time they have just made a product 50 times better. Thats not stealing. You say they took the mac operating system? No thats not true at all. The reason people switched from mac to windows was because it was easyer and more efficiant to program a windows machine. I dont see how microsoft could have stolen the mac os considering the programming is completly different.

[jeffmott]

So you think that microsoft's pushing standards furthur is a bad thing?
Finish reading Pyro's sentence. Microsoft is pushing away from standardization.

Also microsoft has not "crushed all of its competicion"
Considering Microsoft holds ~90% of the market, they essentially have.

They have revolusionised computers as we know it
Yes they have. But that revolution probably would have been further along without their interference. They don't try to compete with the latest and greatest, they seek to destroy the latest and greatest until they're all that's left because it is more pofitable that way. But hurts the IT industry as a whole.

You say they took the mac operating system? No thats not true at all
It's actually a well known fact.

I dont see how microsoft could have stolen the mac os considering the programming is completly different
The initial releases were almost identicle. Since then the two systems have separated. Mac is user friendly and stable. Windows is user friendly, buggy, and insecure. However, Windows is already in place in ~90% of the market with a proportional number of users familiar with it and software written for it, and people don't like change so they stick with what they know. So Windows remains due solely to its popularity (note: popular software != good software).

[PeOfEo]

MAC USER FRIENDLY HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. But you got me on the buggy thing with windows because me is full of bugs... but xp on the other hand is very stable

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
So you think that microsoft's pushing standards furthur is a bad thing?Like jeffmott has pointed out, Microsoft is _not_ pushing standards, they are pushing away from stardards. Sure, IE proprietary code works just great in IE, but try using CSS (as defined by the W3C) in IE...It's a joke. IE is a very standard incomplient browser.


Originally posted by PeOfEo
because me is full of bugs... but xp on the other hand is very stableI'd agree that ME is very buggy...but my copy of Windows XP has crashed three times so far this year. Ironically, twice it was because I tried to install the service pack 1 for IE.. :mad: Gotta love Microsoft...

Originally posted by jeffmott
But that revolution probably would have been further along without their interference.This too, IMO, is a true statement. Sure, it seems like Microsoft is the "best" and have done so many great things, but if it wasn't Microsoft, it would have been someone else. Maybe someone who didn't revert to fraudulent, dishonest means to promote themselves. Also, like jeffmott has pointed out, Microsoft is more concerned with elimintating competition than really being the best because they prove that they can compete.

[AdamBrill]

Well, here is my 2 cents worth. :) Microsoft does make good products(most of the time). When you look at windows, there are no good alternatives. And they did NOT stamp out the competition. The only thing they did was make a good product and people decided to use them instead of use some other product. The fact that there aren't any alternatives means that the majority of the people are satisfied with them. If they wouldn't be, then there would be alternatives. That's just how it works. If they would make bad products, then there would be other alternatives. As far as Internet Explorer, there are alternatives to it. If you guys hate IE so much, then why don't you just go download Netscape or Opera??

[Stefan]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
[B]Well, here is my 2 cents worth. :) Microsoft does make good products(most of the time). When you look at windows, there are no good alternatives. And they did NOT stamp out the competition.


That's a joke isn't it?
Or are you simply totally ignorant about computer history?

MS became the #1 OS provider becude B.Gates cut an extremly good deal IBM, which at the time was the #1 big boy in home computing with 90%+ marketshare.
That was how basicly every single PC began to ship ith MS OS pre-installed.
Not becuse it was then best OS, but becuse Gates scammed IBM to use the software he scammed of somebody else for a dollars.
Even at the time there was much better OS alternatives available, IBM was just fooled into believing how greate MS-dos would be in the future (and later deeply regretted signing the contract).


After MS had secured a 90%+ marketshare they went on to use really ugly taktiks to retain their place.
Even today PC manufacturers are FORCED to sign licensing agreements that PREVENTS ANY NON MS SOFTWARE TO EVEN BE ON THE HARDDRIVE OF SYSTEMS SOLD WITH AN MS OS!!!!!

How the hell is that NOT stomping out the competition?
How can ANY OTHER company EVER compeate with that, when they are not even allowed to be PRESENT on the system in any way or form?

They can't even compeate by GIVING THE SOFTWARE AWAY FOR FREE, BECUSE THEY ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO BE INSTALLED!!



The fact that there aren't any alternatives means that the majority of the people are satisfied with them.


No alternatives? Ever heard about Linux?
How on earth do you explain how millions of programers world wide have spent unpaid freetime to help build an OS & apps if MS software is so greate?



As far as Internet Explorer, there are alternatives to it. If you guys hate IE so much, then why don't you just go download Netscape or Opera??

Are you trying to say that you are visiting a webdeveloper forum, implying that you write webpages, and you have NOT YET downloaded Netscape or Opera?!!?
Geeezzz....

[bellybytes]

Microsoft is more concerned with elimintating competition than really being the best because they prove that they can compete.

ach - that's so silly. You can't stop competition - maybe intimidate it, but I find that impressive - and if a dunderhead like myself figured that out by the age of 10, why can't you - and even more so, do you really think Microsoft doesn't know that? C'mon!? Microsoft can't stop ANYONE from competing - if someone hits the market with a product so awesome that those of us who like Microsoft's products actually switch, more power to them! That's business, that's competition - it's great, it's exciting and it works. Until then, I haven't tried one yet -and yes, I've used netscape (UG) and Opera - double UG. All those experiences did was make me more loyal to Microsoft.

As for illegal - Microsoft did nothing illegal. Example: My folks bought a brand new stove and microwave that work together -if they tried to use a different brand of microwave, it wouldn't work. So now should every single other stove/microwave manufacturer sue the company that made their's because it's "Bundled"??? It's silly!:rolleyes:

[AdamBrill]

Wow, I really rubbed you the wrong way. I'm sorry. That's not what I was trying to do. I think you took me mostly wrong. For one thing, I'm not saying Microsoft is perfect. They definately aren't. But, if you could name one other huge company that hasn't done anything wrong to get to where they are, then I would be supprised. Microsoft is probably worse than most of the companies, but they aren't some horrid despicable creature. :) And when I said that there were no alternatives, I meant any that are getting anywhere. Yeah, they finally made Linux, the first one that doesn't totally suck. Lets say that Linux would SMASH Microsoft. Then, the only difference would be that instead of seeing Microsoft everywhere, you would see Linux everywhere. Do you really think you would like it that much more??

[Stefan]

Originally posted by bellybytes
Microsoft can't stop ANYONE from competing


That is EXACTLY what they have been doing for almost a decade now, even if you happen to be slow to catch on.
Please read my post again (it's right above your post above)


As for illegal - Microsoft did nothing illegal.[/B]

They have done many illegal things. Sadly the US legal system is so corrupt that it will do nothing.

I find it very sad that you applaude MS for being a bully. Sadly the same distorted viewpoint of the world is just too common among people in the US. It's reason some of you have a hard time figuring out why "terrorists" happen to attack the US (which is a nobrainer for most of the rest of the world).

[pyro]

Originally posted by bellybytes
You can't stop competitionYou most certainly can, as Microsoft does... Did you even read what Stefan said??Originally posted by Stefan
Even today PC manufacturers are FORCED to sign licensing agreements that PREVENTS ANY NON MS SOFTWARE TO EVEN BE ON THE HARDDRIVE OF SYSTEMS SOLD WITH AN MS OS!!!!!Originally posted by bellybytes
As for illegal - Microsoft did nothing illegal.OH MY GOSH...Tell me you didn't just say that... Time for you to read up on the issue, I think. Microsoft has done an incredible amount of manipulative, dishonest things to get/stay where they are.

[Stefan]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
Lets say that Linux would SMASH Microsoft. Then, the only difference would be that instead of seeing Microsoft everywhere, you would see Linux everywhere. Do you really think you would like it that much more??

That would be immensly better, becouse Lnux is Open source and already today there are literraly hundreds of different distributions available (not to mention that you can complie your own dist from scratch if you like).

Thus there is nothing ANY company could to to get such a strange hold on the computer business like the one MS have had for a large number of years now. It is simply not possible in an open source enviroment.

[AdamBrill]

Well, lets say it would happen with something besides an open source program. You wouldn't like that any more than Microsoft.
Originally Posted By Stefan
Even today PC manufacturers are FORCED to sign licensing agreements that PREVENTS ANY NON MS SOFTWARE TO EVEN BE ON THE HARDDRIVE OF SYSTEMS SOLD WITH AN MS OS!!!!!
I don't think that that is true. What about all of the systems that come with Norton antiVirus, for example? All of the software that comes with computers is not part of Microsoft.

[bellybytes]

Even today PC manufacturers are FORCED to sign licensing agreements that PREVENTS ANY NON MS SOFTWARE TO EVEN BE ON THE HARDDRIVE OF SYSTEMS SOLD WITH AN MS OS!!!!!


No, that is not true! :rolleyes: Honestly, where did you hear such a thing? My very own PC had both Netscape and IE on it when it was new - so did my parent's, and they just bought theirs about five months ago. "It's a DELL, Dude"... I can say for certain this is not true in America...

[PeOfEo]

I would like to go back to java. Displell the miths. Microsoft altered java on windows machines because it actually made it performe better on windows machines... a lot batter. Sun got all huffy and said thats violating our rights. So windows said forget you and removed java altogether. The some windows users said hey give that back, im sad and insecure. So microsoft put it back then things get all confusing and stupid. Basically we would have a really great thing is sun hadn't been such a baby to begin with

[PeOfEo]

Originally posted by Stefan
That would be immensly better, becouse Lnux is Open source and already today there are literraly hundreds of different distributions available (not to mention that you can complie your own dist from scratch if you like).

I sort of agree that linux the better system because it runs so darned fast! But none of the high end software is compatible with it so you would end up having to reprogram your whole os. But thats one nice thing about linux, you can do that. I think if Linux were the most widly used system out there everything would be awesome, but I dont see that happening.

[Code One]

I think the whole family of HTML is easy, dhtml, xhtml, html, and all those that are brothers and sisters of them, javascript, VB, etc. All dat crap comes to ya like learning how to jerk it, you just know how.
Da hardest: Low level crap, like the code it takes to make your computer work or a esculator work, which is obvious, it takes like half a life time to code. or for the enginerds "program". Note*cool programmers say "coding".
Anyway:
I would say if you were going to do anything you should progress and not degress, so grow some big ones and take on Java, or C++. You would be amazed at what you can do once you know that crap.
Oh yeah: It never hurts to learn how to hack! but be responisble, dont go taking on big wigs, it shows a huge lack of brain power, and how low your maturity level is. Do it for the free programs, and to pee-off your friends. Hope that helps. . .
Code One

[Stefan]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Basically we would have a really great thing is sun hadn't been such a baby to begin with

Yeah sure, you go and distrubute Windows illegally and see how long it takes until MS drags YOU to court...

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Basically we would have a really great thing is sun hadn't been such a baby to begin with I don't see why you think that MS destroying the universitality of Java is a "great thing"

[Stefan]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
... linux ... none of the high end software is compatible with it...

What software are you refering to? "High end" is pretty fuzzy.

Eg the vast majority of "high end" webservers worldwide are running Apashe on a *nix box.

[Stefan]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
I don't think that that is true. What about all of the systems that come with Norton antiVirus, for example? All of the software that comes with computers is not part of Microsoft.

You have to cut a deal with MS (costing much $) to be allowed to do this.
For a small firm that has a compeating product to MS, that is not very likely to happen.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Stefan
Eg the vast majority of "high end" webservers worldwide are running Apashe on a *nix box. Thank God for that... :D

[jeffmott]

PeOfEo, you have an opinion that I don't agree with, and that's fine, but stop distorting the facts to make your opinion sound better.

Microsoft altered java on windows machines because it actually made it performe better on windows machines
Microsoft made their own version so they could add proprietary code. They wanted their version of Java to work for only Windows users and break for everybody else. Thus destroying one of the greatest benefits of Java. This was a very deliberate attack against Java.

Sun got all huffy and said thats violating our rights
Microsoft had Java to begin with because Sun allowed them the right to include it under the stipulation that they kept it compatible (no proprietary crap). This is a legal contract Microsoft broke.

So windows said forget you and removed java altogether
Microsoft stopped distributing their VM because they no longer had rights to the newer versions of Java. All they had was something that by then was several versions old and practically useless.

we would have a really great thing is sun hadn't been such a baby to begin with
You would still be able to use the MS VM if Microsoft had not broken the law. So place blame where it's deserved.

[khaki]

I was just wondering what in your opinion is the easiest programming language to learn except XHTML (I already know that) I want to learn another language but i want to start with an easy one because my memory isn't very good and i'd like to build it up with an easy language.

How easily we seem to forget the questions sometimes... (wink)

If you are looking to build up your skills (and you can already script pages), then start with Javascript (since it appears that it is practically inescapable in web development these days).

After that, I would say to give CSS a look.

Then.... maybe a server-side language.
.......and if I can put my 2 cents in:
If you are looking to stay current and relevant (and don't want to have to learn every singe new language that may come and/or go), hitch your wagon to whatever star is ruling the sky.

In other words... until Sun can outshine Microsoft, you can't go wrong by siding with the king.
Wait for the actual overthrow before electing to gamble your own future on something that may or may not ever happen.

Microsoft (love em or hate em) is not going anywhere (in spite of all of the rebellious chatter here and elsewhere).

Good luck with your learning Learner. Hopefully we'll see you on the boards as you go through the process.

livin' life the Microsoft way...
k

[PeOfEo]

Stefan, when I say hi end I mean things like games, photo shop, word perfect. Actual main stream big applications. Things that are used by many people. Like if you go into a computer store and look on a box at system requirements and operating systems, these programs only work on windows and mac. Not Linux, so therefore you would have to program your hard drive so it could run these applications. The nice thing about linux is that you can do this. Also microsoft was not really distributing illegally. It was a simple breach of contract in my eyes, windows actually made java work better on windows based machines.
I don't see why you think that MS destroying the universitality of Java is a "great thing" Destrying the universitality of java eh? You just need to weigh your prioritys. Do you want something that is universal but does not work very well, or do you want something that is really good but not function quite as well on a mac? Besides if you have java on your windows based machine and are making a personal application (in the the aggrement it says ment for personal use, atleast my version anyway) Chances are you want to make it for windows... I mean that is your operating system and all.

[PeOfEo]

I do agree with you about unix servers, they are fast and it is much easyer to use perl/cgi on a unix machine. If I were on unix I might have taken up perl but im on a microsoft 2002 so I use asp.net

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Also microsoft was not really distributing illegally.HA! The "simple breach of contract" was them distributing their "version" of the VM, against a contractual agreement. What that means is they were distributing illegally...

Originally posted by PeOfEo
Destrying the universitality of java eh?Yes, destroying the universitatlity of Java. What would you call it? They made it so Java written for Windows only works on Windows. That totally goes against the purpose of Java...

[PeOfEo]

Yes but it was not to deliberatly mess it up as you put it. Microsoft actually made java run better on windows based machines so it would not lag as much or be so full of bugs when users tried to use it. In doing so it was not as compatible with other os's but it werked 110% better on windows.

[jeffmott]

Also microsoft was not really distributing illegally. It was a simple breach of contract in my eyes
How could you possibly come to that conclusion? It isn't even a matter of opinion. It's a simple fact: Microsoft distributed an illegal version of the Java VM.

Yes but it was not to deliberatly mess it up as you put it
It most certainly was. I think the one thing we've all agreed on here is that Linux is better than Windows. And as you said, all the commonly used software requires Windows. That requirement is what has been keeping Windows on computer systems. A program written in Java would be able to be run on any OS. This would erode the "application advantage" of Windows. So Microsoft sought to make a Windows only version of Java so that those programs would still require Windows. This was Microsoft's motivation for creating their own VM.

[jeffmott]

I also think you exagerate the speed boost the Microsoft VM has over the real VM. I initially had the Microsoft VM (XP used to automatically download it) then switched then switched to the real Java VM and I don't even remember noticing a difference. If you still have a copy of the Microsoft VM I'd like for you to send me a copy (I can't find it on Microsoft's site anymore) and I'll do some benchmarking.

[PeOfEo]

not on this comp... it might still be on the other one but I had a virus and some of the files might have been destroyed when I got rid of it. I had the wc3klez virus, huge pain got into 72 files, stupid mass mail viruses. I might be able to dig up a disc though.

[PeOfEo]

But apparently microsoft vm ran a whole lot better then regular vm from what I heard on windows machines but i didnt have regualr vm so that just what friends have told me. I might be able to get a copy of ms vm from my professor.

[khalidali63]

Holy crap, how I could I have missed this thread for soooo long..

lol

Here is what I have experienced in last decade,Most of the people whol like MS products( I said most not all) are not developers/engineers,they are all regular users of PC at home or scretaries typing letters in MS word thats how there is 90% windows based systems.
An overwhelming majority of software engineers are the only group of people who do not like MS products and thats only because they are technically really crapy propducts,they may look prety but not the best quality.

In the whole history of MS in last 25 yrs,I seriously doubt that they have even have "ONE" of their own products,what they have done is buy already existing products using money (IBM Link has already been mentioned)
( hence the argument of no allowing competition).
Even in todays day..all you are talking so much about MS being better..just lookat the C# (C sharp) programming languages,Newest MS genius,if any MS developer who has .000009 percent brains can tell that its the 99% copy of Java..just look explore what I am saying instead of coming back with some ridiculous argument.

Aswome lets see whats next..

:-)

Khalid

[pyro]

Originally posted by khalidali63
Most of the people whol like MS products( I said most not all) are not developers/engineers,they are all regular users of PC at home or scretaries typing letters in MS word thats how there is 90% windows based systems.I'd agree with that. And it is because they don't know any better. :p It works for them (sort of) and when it crashes twice a week, they have to accept that, because for your average user, there is no alternative. (And we all know why that is...)

Originally posted by khalidali63
can tell that its the 99% copy Once again, I'd agree that Microsoft basically does just copy what they see, and seeing how they are Microsoft, they get away with it... :(

[khaki]

Most of the people whol like MS products( I said most not all) are not developers/engineers,they are all regular users of PC at home or scretaries typing letters in MS word thats how there is 90% windows based systems.
WHAT ARE YOU GUYS..... OUT OF YOUR MINDS!!!!!!???

How dare you!

I have worked for AT&T Wireless (ALL Microsoft) and Nextel Communications (ALL Microsoft), and I am PAID to be a developer (front-end & back-end). I work with others who are paid to do the same.

We use Visual InterDev to develop (not MS Word!).
And I could care less how Microsoft obtains their products, because all I know is that I can step into most Fortune 500 companies and get a job because of my knowledge of Microsoft technology!!!

You guys really ticked me off.
You are clueless as to the real world if you beleive the garbage that you are spewwing.
If you hate Microsoft... fine.

But I make a living doing exactly THIS type of work precisely because I am able to work within the Microsoft technologies.

Does anyone want to tell ME that I "don't know any better"?
Because I just cashed another paycheck on the 30th directly because I know better enough!!!

Rethink guys!
You are WAY out of line!

me-frikken-yow!
k

[khaki]

Even in todays day..all you are talking so much about MS being better..just lookat the C# (C sharp) programming languages,Newest MS genius,if any MS developer who has .000009 percent brains can tell that its the 99% copy of Java..just look explore what I am saying instead of coming back with some ridiculous argument.

Kalid... who cares whats "behind" the Microsoft technology?
The point is that it has the Microsoft name on the box.

Hate it if you want, but dismissing it as a non-relevent player in the world of development is nothing more than grudge-induced sour-grapes.

Get over it, please!
Your killing me!!!

so mad i could throw-up...
k

[AdamBrill]

Sweet, k is on our side. :D Anyway, I've had a recent experience with a company besides Microsoft. We have Quicken 98 Home edition. It was working fine and we had no need to upgrade. BUT, then we upgraded to Windows XP. Well, we still don't need to upgrade, but we are getting FORCED into doing it. Intuit says that they will "no longer give us the activation key." I don't see how this is any better than what Microsoft does. Microsoft forces you to buy they're product; Intuit forces you to but ANOTHER of their own products! I don't know if that is legal or not, I'm not a lawyer, but it is more annoying than what Microsoft does. I just thought I would point out that Microsoft isn't the only one that is a pain...

BTW, Khalid, when you were talking about C# you said C sharp; is that right?? I thought it was pronounced C pound...Isn't that how to pronounce it??

[spufi]

Breate khaki, breathe. :) You went with the big name because it offered the best benefits due to the fact that it currently has a stronghold in it's market. It doesn't mean they are the best(their not), or it's the easiest to learn(it isn't). I don't blame anybody who went with MS for the reason that MS is the top tog. Hey, we all want to get paid. If that means sleeping with the enemy, so be it.

I will agree that a good first step is towards learning an actual programming language is to look into JavaScript. It's fairly straight forward and it handles OOP, a good thing. In terms of server side programming I would lean towards using PHP. For the more hardcore programming, I'm willing to say Java is the way to go. Java is a big monkey on MS's back and it will be interesting to how MS handles it. Oh, plus one can get everthing they need to learn Java for free. Even the best book on it is a free download because the author is working on a new edition. Add to the fact that Java is at like version 1.4, it's only going to get better and better.

[pyro]

Originally posted by khaki
You are clueless as to the real world if you beleive the garbage that you are spewwing.Uhh...I think not. The "garbage that we are spewwing" is true. I don't think that anyone ever said that you can't get a job by knowing Microsoft's crap. That would seem to be to be way off topic. What it would seem we are really disgussing is Microsoft's manipulative/illegal business practices.

Originally posted by khaki
Kalid... who cares whats "behind" the Microsoft technology?
The point is that it has the Microsoft name on the box.It really doesn't bother you at all that Microsoft steals others producs and slaps their name on the box?

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by pyro
It really doesn't bother you at all that Microsoft steals others producs and slaps their name on the box?
That's not what happened. Microsoft saw that there was a good product that could be made. And yes, they saw it from some other place that had made a primitive form of it. That doesn't make it wrong. Microsoft always took what they saw, made it better, and then sold it. Nobody made Windows before they did, they just made it look like something that they saw(which wasn't as good as Windows is). That doesn't make it illegal. That's like saything that "since there is one paint program, anyone who makes another paint program is illegal." EVERYONE makes stuff like what they see, it's not just Microsoft. There was one first person shooter, now there are TONS of them. I don't notice any of you saying that all the people that made them afterward are illegal. You just don't personally like Microsoft, so you yell about them.

[pyro]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
That's not what happened.Sure it is, that is exactly what happend with Java. Microsoft made Microsoft VM, which was basically a copy of the Java VM. They just added their proprietay crap (which is what got them in trouble) and called it the Microsoft VM.

[AdamBrill]

Microsoft was not selling the Java VM. That's what makes it so different. They took what was getting distributed freely, modifyed it how they wanted and put it up for free again. They didn't steal anything from anyone else. Anybody could download whichever version they wanted. And if the Microsoft one came on a new PC then, if they really wanted to, they could download the other version. It all ends up being up to the user anyway.

[pyro]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
modifyed it how they wanted and put it up for free again.Which is exactly what the problem is. Microsoft broke their contractual agreement with Sun in oreder to distribute "their" version of the VM...A Windows only version, I might add...

[Code One]

blah . . I hate sun, I hate MS, wah wah blah blah

[jeffmott]

AdamBrill
Microsoft was not selling the Java VM. That's what makes it so different. They took what was getting distributed freely, modifyed it how they wanted and put it up for free again. They didn't steal anything from anyone else
You are right that they didn't steal anything [in this case]. They were licensed the Java VM under certain legally binding stipulations (one of which is that it is kept compatible). It also was not about making money selling the VM (obviously since it is free). It's about Microsoft keeping it's application advantage, which is what keeps Windows on 90% of computer systems.

saw that there was a good product that could be made. And yes, they saw it from some other place that had made a primitive form of it
If they had built a new VM from scratch I don't think there would have been a problem (I think, not sure what the law states). Sun wouldn't have been happy about it, but it wouldn't have been illegal. But Microsoft didn't build a new one, they modified one attained through a license and broke the terms of that license.

Another place that made a primitive form of it? Do you actually have any information that shows how Microsoft's VM is better than Sun's? If not then please don't insert arguments you just make up.

But either way, whether Microsoft's performed better or not is irrelevent. Sun licensed MS Java VM. Microsoft broke the terms of the license. Sun sued and refused to license MS the rights to future versions (a very standard and understandable response). What gets me is how people can make Microsoft out to be the good guys in this situation. They broke the law and some people seem to think that Sun should've accepted it graciously.

[pyro]

Originally posted by jeffmott
What gets me is how people can make Microsoft out to be the good guys in this situation. They broke the law and some people seem to think that Sun should've accepted it graciously. I never can get that. Why is it that people think Microsoft is so great and good? Is it just because they are the biggest and most powerful? Biggest and most powerful certainly doesn't always equal the best... Also, why do so many people think that Microsoft should be able to get away with everything? One would think that the law should apply to them as well as the rest of us...

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by jeffmott
Another place that made a primitive form of it? Do you actually have any information that shows how Microsoft's VM is better than Sun's? If not then please don't insert arguments you just make up.
Actually, if you go back and read the rest of my post, I wasn't talking about the java VM. That was a generic statement about all Microsoft products collectively. I didn't mean that it was true in EVERY situation. I'm sorry for the cunfusion.

Origanally posted by Pyro
I never can get that. Why is it that people think Microsoft is so great and good? Is it just because they are the biggest and most powerful? Biggest and most powerful certainly doesn't always equal the best... Also, why do so many people think that Microsoft should be able to get away with everything? One would think that the law should apply to them as well as the rest of us...
What I don't get is why you guys hate Microsoft so much when most of the big companys do/would if they could do the samething. What I am trying to say is Microsoft really isn't that much worse than anyone else. Did you read what I said about Intuit?? What makes that better than what Microsoft is doing?? I think they should make ALL of the companys stay under the law, not just Microsoft.

[jeffmott]

What I don't get is why you guys hate Microsoft so much
I personally don't like Microsoft because I find their software to be [generally] crummy combined with the fact that the application advantage basically denies me the choice of using something different. If Microsoft were responsible for software such as Apache, Linux, and Mozilla then I'd be overjoyed that these applications are being used on 90% of computer systems. But instead we're left with Windows (crashes, insecure, xp left a door wide open to spammers, who knows what's yet to be discovered), IE (non-standard), and IIS (I believe the last major internet crash was due to a MS Web server flaw).

I think they should make ALL of the companys stay under the law, not just Microsoft
Very true. But it was the peole who were praising Microsoft for breaking the law (and blaming Sun at the same time) that I found irritating.

[khaki]

Breate khaki, breathe. You went with the big name because it offered the best benefits due to the fact that it currently has a stronghold in it's market. It doesn't mean they are the best(their not), or it's the easiest to learn(it isn't). I don't blame anybody who went with MS for the reason that MS is the top tog. Hey, we all want to get paid. If that means sleeping with the enemy, so be it.
Just keep the insults rolling Spufi. I'm sure that you feel that I am worthy of your scorn, but I can't seem to pinpoint the reason for it myself. I've never had cause to take issue with you before, and I'll resist the temptation to take your condescending attitude personally now (although I don't find that very easy to do).
I don't "sleep with the enemy". I sleep quite well thank you very much. And I work very hard too. Just because you hate Microsoft is no reason for you to feel that I am fair game for your attacks.

And y'know, all of you guys are going to have to excuse me, but when i hear Pyro (who I adore) say...
What it would seem we are really disgussing is Microsoft's manipulative/illegal business practices.

... I can't help but remind him (and the rest of you) that what we are supposed to be discussing is Learning's original question - and not everybody's personal slant on corporate ethics (and forgive me for suspecting that Sun may have some devious business practices of thier own - or have they become Snow White all of a sudden?). Sorry, but I tend not to think of them as the blushing virgin brides of the business world like most of you seem to do.

Good guys / bad guys. Are you kidding me? Is that really the argument here? Get your heads out of the sand boys... this is big business and we are ALL pawns. Find the survivors way, or die hungry with principals that unfortunatly amount to nothing. A moral-stand in business is the equivalent of a cup of pencils on the street corner: It just doesn't pay in the real world.

And who treats me worse? Microsoft, or the people who personally attack me for supporting their technology? I believe that a reality check is in order here.

Sorry, but I get paid to do a job in the real business world. I have to make choices that help me survive in the real world. I was trying to pass-on my own experience to Learning. The rest of you are back at the frat arguing ethics like your the stars of your own little debate team.

Sorry,,, but I got bills to pay, technologies to learn, and better thing to do with my time than be insulted by idealists without a clue.
And if that sounds like an insult... it's probably because I'm still really really mad.

I'll get over it... and I'll probably be apologizing in the morning... but whew... I can't believe that you guys are in this field and can't see this business for what it really is. It's not all Geocities Blogs guys. Some of us are actually trying to earn a living doing this stuff.

And.... NEWS FLASH!!!
Big business is corrupt! Details at 11.

sometimes silly, but never stupid...
k

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by AdamBrill

BTW, Khalid, when you were talking about C# you said C sharp; is that right?? I thought it was pronounced C pound...Isn't that how to pronounce it??

LOL...I just pray from god that you were kidding if not then I rest my case

C# = C Sharp
As for Khaki's getting ticked off..well she was almost off the topic, we are not talking here about where one can make money or is making money,we are talking about malpracticing of a company.Its a very broad scope topic,pin pointing one person have never been intent here of any one.Make as much money you want but say the right thing when it comes to that.

Cheers

Khalid

[jeffmott]

Sorry, but I get paid to do a job in the real business world
I don't think anyone ever said knowing or using Microsoft technologies doesn't yield a paycheck. I think there was a misinterpretation somewhere along the line.

[khaki]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Yup. I'm off topic (see the title of this post and tell me who is off topic).

But, it's just silly khaki being silly again, right?.

And after she realizes that Bill Gates is gonna read all of your opinions here and then decide to change his entire business philosophy... I am going to look like such a fool.

You are all brilliant. Enron would be a thriving corporate monster if you guys only had the opportunity to debate it here before it all went into the sh*tter.

Yes. I make my living in this field. So I can't afford to be naive and idealistic when discussing it.
But I think that I am at least open-minded enough to see this business for what it is... and smart enough to know how to best take advantage of it.
Kalid wrote:
Make as much money you want but say the right thing when it comes to that.
So I guess its:
Say as Kalid believes, or you are wrong.

So I guess I'm wrong about everything:
The Topic
& everything else that I have had to say.

Thanks for the clue Kalid. But y'know what?
Stick to the code (that's where you actually make some sense and provide me with help).

I'm stunned. Most of you are biting the hand that feeds. Shame on you for your hypocrisy.
k

[spufi]

khalidali63, the thread is about the easiest language to learn. Anything else is off topic and just about all of this thread is. Khaki brought this point up in one of her posts and at least she has posted on the correct topic. Since I've already post on the correct topic, I'll bow out now and just e-mail Khaki about what she wrote to me.

[khaki]

Jeffmott, your the one who got this topic off-course to begin with, so don't start up with me now.

I didn't realize I had so many buttons, but you guys just keep pressing and pressing.
k

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by khaki
........
So I guess its:
Say as Kalid believes, or you are wrong.
................
k

Thats not fair K to single me out like that...if you are reading the topic( as I hope you did) then you would understand that how come MS has lost anti trust case against them..They must have done some wrong thats why ...how come they have finally agreed to open windows source...and list goes on..

Point is ,again, All this discussion ws started from the point that MS malpracticed,,and that their product is not the best....
You have your opinion and there are people like me who think that ms product is not the best.
And please if you think I do not make any sense..
Well .......I guess if I have not made myself clearer enough,then I won't be able to,there fore..have fun..

Cheers

Khalid

[khaki]

I've just had a very brisk, very cold (and very quick!) walk around the block.

And now I feel that I should apologize to those who I may have addressed harshly.

I don't know how many posts I have in this threat (I'm actually too embarrassed to count them), but I do know that there are few (if any) "lol"'s or "winks" in them. And lets face it... that's me (and not all of this anger. ugh).

I've shared a lot of threads with a lot of you guys. And while we don't always agree on every topic (like this one), I never want to disrespect any of you over anything that goes on here.

This forum is great. It does so much for so many people (especially me). And I don't want to disrespect it - or any of you - by behaving as I have here this evening.

I'm not going to name the specific names here, because I am sorry to anybody who has had to read my comments here tonite.

It's probably time for me to call it a nite. My best to you all.
k

[jeffmott]

Jeffmott, your the one who got this topic off-course to begin with, so don't start up with me now
First, my posts here have always been in response to unjustified or incorrect comments. I have buttons just as you, and mine were pressed with Sun was blamed for Microsoft's breach of the law. I have also tried to keep my posts factual and leave opinions out as much as possible. So at least people will learn a little computer history by reading them, which actually turned out to be a good thing. A few were a little obvlious.

Personally I thought Learning's question was answered about as well as it was going to be. But if it makes you feel better we could always ask the moderator to move these posts to their own topic.

[AdamBrill]

lol, I missed a lot over night. :D
Originally posted by khalidali63
LOL...I just pray from god that you were kidding if not then I rest my case
Thanks for the insult, Khalid. But, I learn through reading, not hearing people talk. I suppose you are sitting there getting taught by private teachers 24/7, is that it?? Well, I'm not, so if you'll just answer my questions I would be greatly appreciative. To tell you the truth, you really supprised me. I was expecting to get it about the first paragraph, which I did, don't worry. But when I just asked for a pronunciation I wasn't expecting anything besides just an answer, which you did give after you chewed me out. Thank you very much. Here is a little test for you: Find something new that you've never even heard of. Now read it over and over again. If you didn't know how to pronounce it when you started, you won't know how afterward either. That's what happened for me. I even have the compiler for it(The MICROSOFT compiler). I have Visual Studio .NET Professional, which in your eyes is probably the WORST thing ever, since it is a Microsoft product, even though you've probably never used it. I'm sure you think they just stole that one, too? Just like they stole every other product that they've ever made?

[khalidali63]

Believe me Adam I had no intention of insult...
I appologise,If you read the resposes just before the one you are referring to ,you'd understand that I just got carried away because of the resposes I got.

Yes you have a point for every learning there is a beginning.

I hope we are cool :D now

Originally posted by AdamBrill
......... I have Visual Studio .NET ......... I'm sure you think they just stole that one, too? Just like they stole every other product that they've ever made?

I have to say( please no insults are intended,just an honest point of view)
MS .NET framework was influenced by Java's J2EE framework+ Java Sun ONE technology.

Cheers

Khalid

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted By khalidali63
I hope we are cool now
Ok, we're cool now. :D I have to remember not to get upset by these... I'm sorry for when I forget that. ;)

I think we have a difference in how we look at it. If I see that Microsoft(or anyone else) made something after someone else that looks like it, I think that they took something that worked and used it on there program. As long as they aren't just copying programs, which isn't what they do, then I think it is okay. Everybody does that. One place makes a movie that is a hit, pretty soon there are tons of movies just like it(but normally not as good as the original). Songs work the same way and so does art. I think that as long as they aren't copying their exact plans or taking there whole program, then it is okay. If you can't ever copy something that someone else already made, then programming is going to get a lot harder. It'll take the first year just to think of something that nobody has made yet! :) I'm kidding, obviously, but I still think that if I wanted to make a text editor, it might end up looking very close to the other person's text editor. Sometimes is just happens. I also think that if you would look at all of the other companys that are out there, you would see that Microsoft isn't the only one that can do things illegal. You guys seem to see what Microsoft does and think it is wrong, but the other company that is doing stuff to get rid of their competition isn't bad. Every company that is at all big has done something to try to get rid of competition. That's just the way the game is played.

Wow, that post got pretty long... :) I guess I better stop talking for a little while :D

[pyro]

Originally posted by khaki
And while we don't always agree on every topic (like this one), I never want to disrespect any of you over anything that goes on here.I think that is an important thing to remember. While we all have differences, and I personally enjoy debates, when it is all over, we need to be able to get on with it and not be upset with each other. It is ok to have differences, but it is also good to talk about them. I've debated other things on these forums, and sometimes I change my point of veiw because of them. Often times you are able to think of things in a new light, or hear things that you have never heard before. It is good for us...

Originally posted by jeffmott
Personally I thought Learning's question was answered about as well as it was going to be.This is how most debates start. They don't start because someone decides "oh, ok, I'm going to post a very debateable topic, now." (Although it does happen that way sometimes.) Of course it is going to follow the same topic. If you look back, PeOfEo is the one that said no one likes Sun, which is really what set all this off...

[PeOfEo]

MY GOD.
You guys are all just anti-microsoft and you have no good reason to be. You just have your little idea that microsoft is the spawn of satan and you will just go on and argue that until microsoft is gone. You cannot see what microsoft has done for the computer world. If it were not for microsoft you say the IT industry would be better. I say it would not even be here in the force it is not. If it were not for windows people would not have taken to computers as much as the had. If it were not for microsoft we would not have a whole lot of the extremly useful applications that we have today. And lets face it microsoft employs a lot of people in a feild where jobs are tight right now. You should be praising microsoft, not cursing it. Those of you who were commenting that C++ is not a language need some serious remedial. C++ is one of the most used languages right now, also its predisior C is still suprising widly used to this day.

[PeOfEo]

let me rephrase that, you are not all anti microsoft but a large majority are, and dont even know why you are.

[PeOfEo]

One more thing, this is just my view on the situation at hand. I think you are giving microsoft a bad wrap. Microsoft might have bough some things from other corperations, but thats how business gets done. But admit it if microsoft were just an evil theft machine they would not hire the army of programers that they have, they would hire conartists and spys.

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
.....Those of you who were commenting that C++ is not a language need some serious remedial. C++ is one of the most used languages right now, also its predisior C is still suprising widly used to this day.

I am surprised to read the above..
I think I went through all of the posts here but I did not see any body say that C/C++ are programming languages.

And just another example...the languages you are calling C++, do you even know what is it called in MS world?
Visual C++ because MS has chnaged that too..

whadya think of that huh?

:-)

Khalid

[PeOfEo]

That stuff about c++ wasn't in this thread I think. I saw it on another thread someplace though. I also skimmed and saw stuff about C sharp and C++.net

[PeOfEo]

Also visual c++ is just refering to the application, it is a member of the 'viual studio' which includes vb.net and visual basic among others.

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted By khalidali63
And just another example...the languages you are calling C++, do you even know what is it called in MS world?
Visual C++ because MS has chnaged that too..
Actually, C and C++ are use mostly for creating Windows programs. Windows couldn't have switched it to Visual C++ to make people use if for Windows...It already WAS getting used to make Windows programs. And, as far as that goes, every compiler has stuff a little bit different. I'm not at all supprised that Microsoft came up with their own little changes too. It does work EXTREMELY well even if you don't use Visual C++, too. If you want to, you can use regular C++ in it. But I can't see why not to use the extra things they added...

PeOfEo-Visual C++ is different from just the name. They added some things. But, I don't see why that matters. If it makes it easier for developers, then add new commands. There's nothing wrong with that.

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
.....That stuff about c++ wasn't in this thread I think. I saw it on another thread someplace though. I also skimmed and saw stuff about C sharp and C++.net

And

Originally posted by PeOfEo
.....Also visual c++ is just refering to the application, it is a member of the 'viual studio' which includes vb.net and visual basic among others...

:D

I leave the judgement for the good members of the jury..

God this is killing me..

lol
Khalid

[PeOfEo]

C++ is the language though.
PeOfEo-Visual C++ is different from just the name. They added some things. But, I don't see why that matters. If it makes it easier for developers, then add new commands. There's nothing wrong with that. I know visual c++ isnt just the name visual c++ is the application. Correct?

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
You should be praising microsoft, not cursing it.I don't think you understand the economic effects that a monopoly (or something as close to it as MS) has. It is a time-proven fact that a monopoly hinders economic growth. Think about it. If Microsoft had some competition, they would be forced to create better products, or, people would use the competitions products. Also, about all these supposed jobs that you think would be gone...Not so. They programmers would simply be working for different companies, developing better products.

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
I know visual c++ isnt just the name visual c++ is the application. Correct?Well.... No, not really. There is a programming language called C++, and one called Visual C++. There are quite a few differences. When C++ came out, Microsoft made Visual C++ to use for their compilers. It is named after their develepment line, though. I guess I don't see what is wrong with them changeing the language, though. All they did is add more features to make it more powerful. That's not bad.

[PeOfEo]

never said it was bad brill. Also Pyro, yes you are throwing around economic facts but if microsoft were to pull an enron and crash this day, It would probably throw the U.S. economy into a downward spiral and maybe collaps. Think about the programmer, in an alredy saturated market they are not going to find work without microsoft. Also what about the stock holders, they would loose a their retierment, kids colledge funds everything out the window. Finally think about the state that the economy is in now, if micorosft went bankrupt this would no longer be a recession it would be economic appoclyps. No one would invest and it would affect the government, military everything. All of that money that microsoft has would litterly dissappear. Imagine the fallout. The last thing you could want is for microsoft to file bankrupsy. Also a monopoly is not always a bad thing. Think about that. There are many legal monopolys that make our system so much more efficient.

[pyro]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
but if microsoft were to pull an enron and crashI never said it would be good for the economy for MS to go out of business now. I think what I said was it would be better if they never were able to get to the position that they are in right now.

Originally posted by PeOfEo
...stock holders, they would loose a their retierment, kids colledge funds everything...I sure hope no one only is investing in one company. That is just asking for disaster.

[PeOfEo]

Well yea its always good to be diverse but look what happened with Enron. Microsoft would be like that only probably worse. But you also have to remember that microsoft maker of c++ vb etc opened the door for a lot of other companies, companies that use microsoft products to make their software.

[Jona]

This forum isn't about investing... :)

Well, I'll just put my two cents in... C++ in my opinion is a programming language with syntax much like that of Java and Javascript. C was the original language that came out, and C takes some thinking to learn to use; however, C++ is much easier to use and learn. C# is Microsoft's latest version of C++, and it is a very powerful language. It is what Internet Explorer and most of your programs like Excel are made out of. It's a powerful and useful language that I intend to learn in the near future once I have completed the majority of the languages on the Web.

You heard my opinion, so don't argue with it. Opinions aren't always right, but sensible ones that aren't argued with are usually better off. -- LOL! J/K! Hehe..

[PeOfEo]

C# is also on my big list of stuff to learn. I am starting to take an interest in XML too. I have so many things I want to do and soooo little time gosh.

[Jona]

C++ is also on my big list of things to do

Big list? Yah, I hear ya...

I am starting to take an interest in XML too.

Really? What, exactly, would you use XML for? Just wondering, because I know what it's for and what it can do/be used for, but I was wondering what you would use it for? Personally I'd probably use it more for C++ applications that I am soon to write. ;)

[PeOfEo]

My quote was I want to learn c# I am still learning c++ right now but I have some knowledge of c++ the structure and the basics already. I would get more into it if it were still offered at my school though =(. Also xml, I have just been hearing that it is the building blocks of the internet and that asp and php and a lot things come from it. I know vml does. It is supposedly very powerful so I want to learn more about it and learn it itself

[Jona]

Well, I see what you mean. XML has been around for a while, though. C++ is actually a lot easier than you'd think at first. It just takes a lot of complex thinking. I have a friend that knows C#/C++ so if I ever had a question, I could ask him, but I already almost know C++ just because the syntax is so very close to Javascript and I know Javascript.

[PeOfEo]

Oh yea I know c++ isnt that bad. Java script is actually very similar to lots and lots of scripting languages. One thing that glares at me is that you use ! for not in almost every one of them. Has anyone here ever heard of WDL. Its used to make computer games with some software. It is remarkably similar to java script, they probably modled it after java script. It was more like java script then it was anything else. Problem is I am not that big of a fan of J script. I use it only when I need too because I am not a fan of advanced client side stuff.

[Jona]

Well, I started with Javascript as my first scripting language. I'm learning Perl/CGI right now.

[PeOfEo]

why dont you get rid of that ad on your .tk site? Its easy just go into the www.dot.tk site and edit your ad options, They dont like it as much but they will let you keep the domain and have no ad. If someone wants to pay for that doamin though...

[Jona]

Well, I'll look into it later maybe... I don't like it, but they did after all give me the free redirection. :)

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted By PeOfEo
never said it was bad brill.
Actually, the part about saying that wasn't bad wasn't directed toward you. :) I was kind of wondering why Stefan brought that up since Microsoft didn't do anything wrong and it only made it better. I just wanted to clerify that.... :D

[PeOfEo]

Thats my thinking too! But so many people on these forums have such a bias against microsoft. Some of them have a reason that is valid in their mind but some people dont have a reason for hating microsoft, but they just do.

[Jona]

Agreed. There is no reason in my mind why someone should have Microsoft or Bill Gates. I've never found any reason to hate them. I think they revolutionized the computer industry. And kept it going, as well. The only reason I can see for hating Bill Gates would be because he's got a lot more money than I do... :p But of course, he did work for it..

[PeOfEo]

Well bill gates does not help himself out though, which drives me nuts. At their court case a year or two back where they were being tried for being a monopoly Gates did come off as being quite arrogant. He did work for his cash though and was not born into it or had it handed to them by a lottery or something. But he is not as humble as some other 'self made men', which does not help his image. But that what money does to you I guess.

[Jona]

Yah, I supposed that's true.

[khalidali63]

Originally posted by PeOfEo
.....But you also have to remember that microsoft maker of c++ vb etc......

Did you even bothered reading any of the postings in this thread earlier..

This thread has become hopeless....

Cheers

Khalid

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted By AdamBrill
I was kind of wondering why Stefan brought that up...
oops... It wasn't Stefan... :) Sorry, Stefan. That was an error on my part. I just wanted to point that out before Stefan saw it and got mad... lol Now I'm wondering why Khalid brought it up. :D

[khaki]

yikes!

...still at it?!

i don't know... but...
the only reason that i can see for continuing with this thread is to increase your post count.

(hey Learning.... look what you started. lol)

now at 149 (wink)....
k

[Stefan]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
oops... It wasn't Stefan... :) Sorry, Stefan.

Yeah, I was justr sitting here wondering why I brought that up my self and why I didn't remember doing it :D

I also see no real problem in MS creating a new version of C++ if they like to. It's perfectly leagal and just a way of creating progress.

The difference beteen C++ and Java however is that Java is the property of another company and specifically made to be cross OS & cross hardware language.

In regard to the debate about disliking MS, it is perfectly normal to not like a bully even if you yourself have not been directly affected. The unnormal behaviour (at least outside of USofA) is to LIKE a bully...

I don't really have anything bad to say about Bill Gates as a person. He is a very smart buziness man and has become rich becuse of it. MS inethical & monopolistic buziness behaviour and cannot be blamed on 1 single person. The blame lies on the company as a whole (both the board and the top people as a group) as well as the legal system of a country which in this case have been pretty apathic when it comes to making sure companies actually follow the laws.

Of cource, in a country where even the president has to rely on companies to sponsor his campain to get elected, it's not really strange that corruption runs deep though the political & law system.

[PeOfEo]

Java might be a property of another company but windows is microsofts property. So you could argue the microsoft has a share in everything on its system. They made it they decide what gets put on it. Try looking at it from that angle. Even though there were more terms involed when microsoft and sun wrote out the contracts a few years back.

[jeffmott]

Java and C#:
If C# is indeed very similar to Java as has been said earlier in this thread then that really is just fine (assuming they actually wrote the software for it). It's Microsoft putting out a competing product. Competition. That's what's supposed to happen. Users now have a choice which one they want to use. It's cases such as with the VM that feeds Microsoft's pattern of dishonest business practices. When they attempt to undermine their competition rather than actually compete.

C++:
To be honest I'm not sure what was being debated with this one. Arguments seemed to fly out randomly.

PeOfEo
So you could argue the microsoft has a share in everything on its system. They made it they decide what gets put on it.
Installing Windows on my computer does not make it their system.

With the popularity of Windows, it would be a very bad business decision for computer vendors not to include it with their computer systems. This means that in practicality they have no choice but to accept whatever terms Microsoft throws at them. And when you start seeing the words "no choice" being thrown around when discussing a company (any company) that means something needs to be done.

[PeOfEo]

If you put windows on your computer it isnt microsofts system... Its still your machine. But microsoft own rights and programs windows so they can decide what works on it.

[jeffmott]

But microsoft own rights and programs windows so they can decide what works on itWhat are you talking about? Are you refering to compatibility issues now? Try explaining a little better whatever it is you're trying to say.

[PeOfEo]

ok microsoft owns and made windows. If they don't want something on there, they can make it so it does not get put on there. They can just put in some code saying if application = blalala then error message ="WIDOWS DOES NOT ALLOW THIS APPLICATION, GET IT OUT OF MY FACE!"

[jeffmott]

And you think Microsoft should do this?!? The operating system is supposed to manage the computer's resources and provide an interface to interact with those resources. NOT dictate what else the user is allowed to do with their machine. This would also be another example of a dishonest business practice. It works towards undermining other companies instead of competing.

[PeOfEo]

I am not saying they should, but they can. Also if it interfears with the operating system (or gets the company sewed) the maybe that would be a reason to do it though. I personally thing that microsoft vm was a good product and microsoft just made regular vm better for their operating system. What I am really trying to say here is microsoft has an operating system. If there is product that can work a whole lot better on it with some editing, then by all means edit it. But I dont see why people still cant use the original vm if they thing it is more universally accepted. Thats what I think is so childish about this legal battle

[jeffmott]

Also if it interfears with the operating system
Yes, I would consider an OS that tells me that I can't run non Microsoft software to be interfering with the operating system.

or gets the company sewed
I don't think this would violate any contractual agreements. But it would get the government back on the monopoly case in a big hurry.

But I dont see why people still cant use the original vm if they thin[k] it is more universally accepted
Because the majority of people who use Windows don't even know what a VM is. They'll just use whatever Microsoft starts them with. Then any program written in actual Java will likely break for them and ones written for Microsoft's VM will run perfectly. People will get the mistaken idea that whoever created Java had no idea what they were doing, and that Microsoft is perfect in every way. When in truth Microsoft is purposfully making real Java programs break to give the illusion that Microsoft is better. Just as the MSN Web site sending a faulty style sheet to Opera browsers to make it seem as if Opera is not rendering the page properly. It's a very large series of lies that Microsoft has gotten most casual users (and some supposed technical minded) to accept.

[AdamBrill]

Well, since that time, Intuit has given us a copy of there newest version. So, I'm no longer mad at Intuit. :) However, I still think that a company should support old versions enough to give you the activation code...

Hey Dave, now that you are a moderator, maybe you could change the name of this thread? I think it should be changed from "The easiest language" to "The thread that would not die"... :D What do you think? LOL

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by Dave Clark
Well, I can't change the title (that I know of)
Actually, I was just kidding... :) I just thought it would be funny... :D However, I do think this thread has gone on long enough, so this is my last post here, too. Cheers! ;)

[khalidali63]

Are usre adam??

:D

Khalid

[PeOfEo]

I agree this thread is useless. We have been posting on it too long about sun and microsoft when we really should be posting questions or answers about web design. Lets just agree to disagree. I think you are giving microsoft a bad wrap and you think microsoft is the spawn of satan. There its over...