FED UP with Dreamweaver!

[metrov]

Is it just me, but how is it possible that DreamweaverMX, supposedly the most professional WISIWIG page builder on the market is SO squirrely? I sometimes spend hours building a page that should take only a few minutes because tables and cells keep exploding out of whack. I adjust one cell, and another explodes out of whack, over and over and over. What you see in Dreamweaver is NOT always what you get. Often a page looks perfect in Dreamweaver, but in the browser [any browser] it's a mutation. I look at the code and the code is perfect, but Dreamweaver's version of the code is not normal. The program seems so unstable and unpredictable, how could MM release such a creature?

I just downloaded the trial version of GO LIVE, and it immediately demonstrated the same kind of whacky behavior, or should I say misbehavior.

My question: IS THERE A BETTER WISIWIG WEB PAGE BUILDING PROGRAM OUT THERE? Or must I build every page using only pure code in order to avoid my angst and frustration?

Also, if a professional web designer can tell me that they have no problems whatsoever with Dreamweaver, I will go back to school, coz I must be doing something wrong.

Thanks a million, Metrov

[pyro]

I use Dreamweaver MX, without difficutly. Of course, I use the code view and hard code most of my pages, so that makes a world of difference. If there are problems, it is simply a matter of bad coding... ;)

I'd recommend trying to learn how to hard code your pages, that way when you have problems, you will know how to fix them. I do use the WYSI(not)WYG aspect of Dreamweaver every so often, normally when laying out a site. I don't seem to have trouble with it. Using tables for layout often gets quirky... :p

[Damien]

One of the biggest advantages of dreamwevver is it's ability to control the page. In particular using the layers feature. Are you mixing layers with tables without converting all to tables when you have finished the page.

Try this;
Use layers, and put tables if needed into the layers, when you have finished the page go to >> Modify >> Convert >> Layers to table.. >>

Then have a look in any browser, should do the trick

[metrov]

to Pyro: 'Using tables for layout often gets quirky...'

Yes, that seems to be the issue -- TABLES. Do you still have issues [quirkiness] with tables even when using strictly cold code?

to Damien:

No, I've never used LAYERS. I know there used to be a problem with layers in certain browser, so I never started using them.

But are you saying that layers will solve my tables/cells headaches? In other words, that if I put my tables into layers, they will not tend to spring out of whack, that they will stay locked into position and size. What a miracle that would be!

Thanx, Metrov

[khaki]

metrov wrote: Also, if a professional web designer can tell me that they have no problems whatsoever with Dreamweaver, I will go back to school, coz I must be doing something wrong.Hi metrov...

I think that the key to your question is the word "professional ".

A professional carpenter can drive a nail striaght into a board with one swing.
A non-professional can use the same hammer and do nothing but bend the nail into V.

I don't really know of professional web developers (by which I mean someone who gets paid to do web development for a living), who relies on WYSIWYG editing.

The ability to hard code is what makes a professional a professional.
The WYSIWYG part of Dreamweaver is not intended for full-time use by professionals. It's good for quick mock-ups, but not for the final product.

I'm with Pyro.... learn to hard-code and then Dreamweaver will be more than adequate for professional (or otherwise) development.

sometimes codes in Notepad just to p*ss people off...
k

[metrov]

Thanks Khaki,

Even though I've been getting paid [well] to build websites for many years now, I have never used strictly hard code to build a page. Maybe I've been lazy. Your coments are very helpful. I'm getting the idea now. Use DW just to layout the page, then use hard code to actually create the pages.

Of course, I'll have to brush up on my HTML.

PLEASE JUST TELL ME THIS: Because you hard code your pages, do you not have trouble with tables and cells flying out of whack?

Thanx, Metrov

[pyro]

If you code your tables correctly, you should have no problems...It just takes time to learn what "correct" is... ;) Like I said, I don't seem to have a problem when laying sites out with tables, (and I've laid out some pretty complex ones) it just takes time to learn what commands you need...

Edit- to add on more thing, it helps to understand how tables work. For instance, if you specify 10px for the width of a cell, and then try to add text that won't fit into 10px, it will stretch your cell, etc..

[khaki]

metrov wrote: PLEASE JUST TELL ME THIS: Because you hard code your pages, do you not have trouble with tables and cells flying out of whack?In my experience, there are 3 types of tables that "fly out of whack".

1) Those which use % for widths and heights.

2) Those with extremely specific pixel widths that also use cellpadding and cellspacing.

3) Nested tables.

(EDIT: and Pyro's observation about content that stretches the width beyond the assigned value is a 4th example)

Otherwise, a table should behave exactly as it is coded.

One point on nested tables:
Get out of the habit of using nested tables for purposes of positioning. Utilize <style> for positioning. Nested tables are headaches looking for a head to inhabit.

Last point:
As per your comment "Of course, I'll have to brush up on my HTML".
One word: YUP (you really should).

doesn't really know the meaning of "one word"...
k

[metrov]

2) Those with extremely specific pixel widths that also use cellpadding and cellspacing.

3) Nested tables.

Yes, yes, those are the troublemakers all right. My God, I feel I'm dying and being reborn. I've just copied and pasted your post into a .txt file to add to my 'bible'.

Thanks very much, Metrov

[khaki]

Thanks for being so appreciative metrov. That's very sweet.

But I gotta tell you... I'm getting mocked-out big time by the people at work over my "very serious" statements and your "bible" comment.

People just can't stand it when I'm not being absolutly ridiculous!
(and if I get one more phone call from an IT guy who wants advice about putting a table on a page, I'm just gonna die of embarrassment :rolleyes: ).

Glad to help though (seriously).

now forwarding my phone to voicemail...
k

[metrov]

Don't mind the mockers, they don't understand my position. Besides they should be working and not wasting time hanging over your shoulder [unless, that is, you are really as cute as your sig pic]. I have one more question though if you don't mind...

I only use nested tables for one reason. Say for example I have a table that comprises the entire page, then we have cells within the table to hold images, buttons, links, etc. But in the middle of all this, I need to have a body of text. Well, I want everything else to butt nicely up against the bounderies of the cells, but I don't want the text butted up against sides of the cells, that would look bad.

So I insert a nested table with a cell padding of 6 so that the text doesn't butt up directly against the side of the cell.

Is it possible to achieve the same effect using <style> position? Or is there a better method for that?

Thnx, Metrov

[khaki]

Tables are still effective for data display, metrov (actually, that's all that they were originally designed for) but positioning with <style> tags will change your life.

Here is simple example of nesting with <style> tags (your own imagination and creativity can take over from here):

<html>
<head>
<title></title>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
DIV.nestOut
{
position:absolute;
left:0;
top:0;
width:100%;
height:100%;
margin-left:0px;
margin-top:0px;
color:#ffcc33;
background-color:#000000;
}
DIV.nestIn
{
position:absolute;
left:25%;
top:25%;
width:250px;
height:250px;
margin-left:0px;
margin-top:0px;
color:#ffffff;
background-color:#cc0000;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body>
<div class="nestOut">
Anything out here (or just use it to pad the nested DIV)
<br>... can be positioned with % or pixels
<div class="nestIn">
Anything in here (even a table)
<br>... can be positioned with % or pixels
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

(special thanks to Geat, who weaned me off of tables and opened my mind to a better way)

... and as far as my co-workers go ...
I work with mostly guys.
Nuff said (wink).

wondering why no one makes an issue about Khalid's 'walking guy" picture. I happen to think it's very cute...
k

[metrov]

:: my life is changed ::

forever indebted and grateful, M <**>

[khaki]

:) k

[starrwriter]

My question: IS THERE A BETTER WISIWIG WEB PAGE BUILDING PROGRAM OUT THERE? Or must I build every page using only pure code in order to avoid my angst and frustration?

Namo WebEditor is much easier to use than Dreamweaver. Also much cheaper and writes clean code. I think it is the best buy in WYSIWYG editors.
http://www.namo.com

[Vladdy]

Originally posted by metrov
Is it just me, but how is it possible that DreamweaverMX, supposedly the most professional WISIWIG page builder on the market is SO squirrely?...
IMHO "professional WYSIWYG page builder" is an oxymoron.
If you want to do it right - you gotta do it yourself - the best pages are written with Notepad (or text editor with syntax highlighting).

[starrwriter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vladdy
[B]IMHO "professional WYSIWYG page builder" is an oxymoron.

Horse****. In the forseeable future, when WYSIWYG editors are improved, all professional websites will be designed with WYSIWYG editors. And then hand-coders like you will become as extinct as dinosaurs. Adapt or perish.

[khaki]

Ok starrwriter...
Aside from your filthy mouth, you are also clueless.
You actually think that someone who can hard-code web applications would be unable to use a crutch like a WYSIWYG editor ?

That's like saying that someone who can drive a vehicle with a manual transmission would be unable to drive a vehicle with an automatic transmission.

If you feel like waiting for someone to come along and make your life easier in the future (with no effort on your own part)... then feel free to wait for that to happen.

In the meantime, hard-coders are adapting quite well to the present. And we already have the experience and know-how to adapt our skills to whatever comes next.

Get in the game, or stop telling us how to play it!

hard-codes AND drives a 5-speed...
k

[metrov]

uh oh, clash of the titans. I'll sit back and learn. m

[pyro]

Originally posted by starrwriter
And then hand-coders like you will become as extinct as dinosaurs. Adapt or perish. When you can hand code, you don't have to worry about that. The problem comes in when you can't....

[khaki]

another button pressed...
(but my wing-man was right there with me that time :) )

[metrov]

uh oh, I just built a page using <style> tags to position text. It looked fine in IE, great I thought. Then I loaded it into Netscape [latest version 7.02] and again, it looked fine UNTIL I opened the browser sidebar. Then the text shot off to the right of the page!!???

Built the same page over, using a nested table instead of a layer, and no problems in either browser. mmmmmm...what to think? Maybe I did something wrong.

[khaki]

Post the code metrov.
There's no way for anyone to know what you might have done wrong unless we can see it for ourselves.
k
(i'm gonna ask something really stupid. What's a browser sidebar?)
EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out. I never use that stuff (screen real-estate is just too valuable to waste on stuff like that.... in my opinion, that is).

[Vladdy]

Originally posted by starrwriter
Horse****. In the forseeable future, when WYSIWYG editors are improved, all professional websites will be designed with WYSIWYG editors. And then hand-coders like you will become as extinct as dinosaurs. Adapt or perish. [/B]
Web is going from PCs to all kinds of other devices: TV, PDAs, phones. Anticipating this development, W3C created new web standards that separate content from presentation. You can no longer design sites relying on "What you see", since you can not anticipate what they will be seen on (and in some cases they may not be seen at all).
Learn HTML, XML and CSS before it's too late. WYSIWYG editors will not improve because there is nowhere to improve.
Hand coding will always be on top because it is more effective. My sites will never look like "just another Dreamweaver/FrontPage template spin-off best viewed with 600x800" Any layout created with WYSIWYG editor I can duplicate with half the code and standard compliance. If you still think it's horse****, here is my new site (http://www.klproductions.com/Home.html) that soon will be finished. Let's see if you can achieve the same layout with all the bells and whistles using a WYSI"NOT"WYG editors.

[Damien]

Before this thread turns into a debate between coders and WYSIWYG designers, I’ll throw my 2 cents in.

It’s the difference between designers and developers, many website designers who have a flare for colour and design tend like to see the visual aspect of something before proceeding further, they harvest inspiration from what they see as they are doing it. Using an editor such as Dreamweaver is an excellent tool for this job and the upshot of the whole thing is, all the code is there by default.

On the other hand, without the ability to implement some functional code or script into your pages, the site would never progress past being aesthetically pleasing.

Therefore one could conclude that a symbiotic relationship exists between the coder and designer. My advice to metrov is to use what ever you feel comfortable with. But good websites have good designers and good coders.

[metrov]

TO KHAKI:

Below is the code for the page in question. By 'sidebar' I mean when you open the History or Favorites panel on the side of the browser; in Netscape it's 'Bookmarks' or 'My Sidebar'. If you open this page in Netscape 7.02, it looks fine until you open the sidebar, then the text flies off to the right.

TO DAMIEN:

Thanks for your comment. I'm a designer, i.e. very visually oriented. It helps me enormously to see things as I set them up. After all is said and done, I'm sure I'll end up using both systems, but definitely improving my cold coding skills.

<html>
<head>
<title>MAMMOTH HOMES, MAMMOTH REAL ESTATE</title>
<META name="description" content="Premiere real estate connection for Mammoth Lakes, June Lakes, Crowley Lake">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<link href="lower.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
</head>

<body bgcolor="#D8EBEB" text="#003333" link="#006666" vlink="#006699" alink="#006666" topmargin="0">
<div align="center">
<table width="73%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr align="left" valign="top">
<td colspan="2"><object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="730" height="70">
<param name="movie" value="flash/Nav_sub.swf">
<param name="quality" value="high">
<embed src="flash/Nav_sub.swf" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="730" height="70"></embed></object></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="117" rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top" background="graphics/SideBar.jpg" bgcolor="#BCBCB1"><p align="left">
<object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="90" height="120">
<param name="movie" value="flash/anime_woman.swf">
<param name="quality" value="high">
<embed src="flash/anime_woman.swf" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="90" height="120"></embed></object>
</p>
<table width="90%" border="0" cellpadding="8">
<tr>
<td height="121" align="left" valign="top"><p><font color="#006666" size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">MORE
ABOUT STEPHANIE</font></p>
<p><font color="#006666" size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">ABOUT
JANICE </font></p>
<p><font color="#006666" size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">TESTIMONIALS</font></p>
<p><font color="#006666" size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">PROVEN
TRACK RECORD</font></p></td>
</tr>
</table>
<p align="left">&nbsp; </p>
<p align="left">&nbsp; </p>
<p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font> </p>
<p align="left">&nbsp; </p>
<p>&nbsp;</p></td>
<td width="613" height="28" align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#3F6866"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">T
e s t i m o n i a l s</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="450" align="left" valign="top" background="graphics/gradient_bg.jpg"><div id="Layer1" style="position:absolute; width:585px; height:427px; z-index:1; left: 270px; top: 111px;"><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>CLIENT
SATISFACTION </strong></font><strong><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font></strong><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<p><font size="2">&quot;</font><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stephanie
gave me immediate assistance and excellent service. She was very professional
and was always available to me.&quot;<font color="#993300"><strong>
Judith Barry</strong></font><br>
<br>
&quot;Stephanie was excellent as our agent. She took care of all of
the details and got the job done.&quot;<br>
<font color="#993300"><strong>Sharon Istbye</strong></font><br>
<br>
&quot;Stephanie showed me a variety of properties and once I selected
a property to buy, Stephanie guided me through the whole buying process.
She was great!&quot; <font color="#993300"><strong>Lila Yacoub</strong></font><br>
<br>
&quot;Stephanie did a wonderful job for us on the selection, sale,
and closing of our house. We would be happy to use her again for any
future real estate needs.&quot; <strong><font color="#993300">Larry
Jankauski</font></strong><br>
<br>
&quot;Stephanie did a great job. She kept us informed throughout the
listing and escrow process. She was the agent on my dad’s condo
and sold it for full price. She got us $8,000 over the listing price!&quot;
<br>
<font color="#993300"><strong>John Goforth</strong></font><br>
<br>
&quot;Stephanie was very helpful in finding us a property. She made
sure we got the right funding from the right mortgage company. She
answered all calls and questions and brought the deal in on time and
to the satisfaction of both the buyer and seller.&quot; <font color="#993300"><strong>Jeff
&amp; Linda Mullins</strong></font></font></p>
</font>
<p><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>You will
be 100% satisfied with my service. Call me today!</strong></font><br>
</p>
</div></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#CCCCCC">&nbsp;</td>
<td align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#CCCCCC"><p>
<object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="480" height="50">
<param name="movie" value="flash/contact.swf">
<param name="quality" value="high">
<embed src="flash/contact.swf" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="50"></embed></object>
</p></td>
</tr>
</table>
<p> <font color="#006666" size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="index.htm">HOME</a>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="prem_props.asp">PREMIERE PROPERTIES</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="mls.asp">SEARCH THE MLS</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="buying.htm">BUYING
PROPERTY</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="selling.htm">SELLING PROPERTY</a>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<font color="#003333">ABOUT STEPHANIE</font></font><font color="#006666" size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
<a href="intrawest.htm"> INTRAWEST REAL ESTATE</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="news.asp">MAMMOTH
REAL ESTATE NEWS</a> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="alliances.htm">ALLIANCES</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="map.htm">
MAMMOTH MAP</a> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="CGI-BIN/contact.htm">CONTACT</a></font>
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<object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,29,0" width="120" height="18">
<param name="movie" value="flash/2002_tiny_logo.swf">
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<embed src="flash/2002_tiny_logo.swf" quality="high" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="18"></embed></object>
</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

[Terra]

I like dreamweaver (well when i say like.. i mean its better than frontpage xp!) the main grumbles i have are it inserts <"/P"> instead of <"br"> all over the place and is help to get it out!

Also the toolbars!!! FFS why cant they develop a program with customisable bars not 50 zillion on screen (has MX got this?)

Apart from that no probs :o)

Oh and the text thing that it doenst really stick to the fonts you ask it too!

[khaki]

Hi metrov...

Your still nesting tables.
I think that you should pull that nested table out of there and position it with <style>.
There is no way I want to look through every element of both tables to see if they are
working together properly or not (sorry... but it's just not necessary, so why endure it?).

Plus... I can't see your style sheet (lower.css) so I have no way of knowing what styles
you have applied to the page.

And no offense but (and listen-up WYSIWYG defenders) you probably have about
100+ unnecessary <p></p> tags and <font></font> tags on that page (and who knows
what else.. I stopped looking). WYSIWYG puts them there. That's called bloat (and it makes
pages harder to de-bug - as well as adding tremendous weight to the page, which slows load-time).

A hard coder only types what is necessary. Chalk one-up for the hard-coders.

I would suggest practicing your HTML skills by cleaning-out all of the bloat. Then maybe your page
will be easier for you to de-bug.
Sound good?
Hope so... it's not the advise you were asking for, but it's advice that you can use.

advice for free....bloat purging will cost ya (lol)...
k

[metrov]

Ok, sorry bout that [I knew I'd catch hell]. Here's the barebones code. You have strongly recommended using <style> positioning, right?

Look at this code in IE -- works great.

Look at it in Netscape -- works great UNTIL you open that sidebar, then the text still shoots off the side of the table.

[btw...point well taken re: bloat]

<html>
<head>
<title>NA</title>
</head>

<body bgcolor="#D8EBEB" text="#003333" topmargin="0">

<div align="center">

<table width="700" border="0" cellspacing="0">

<tr>

<td width="100" height="230" bgcolor="#BCBCB1"></td>

<td width="600" align="center" valign="middle" bgcolor="#3F6866">

<div id="Layer1" style="position:absolute; width:580px; height:114px; z-index:1; left: 260px; top: 16px;">

<font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><font color="#FFFFFF">CLIENT SATISFACTION </font></strong>

<p><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Stephanie gave me immediate assistance and excellent service. She was very professional<br>
and was always available to me.&quot;<strong> Judith Barry</strong><br>

</font>

</p>

</div>

</td>

</tr>

</table>

</div>

</body>

</html>