As broadband increases Flash will take over the internet and here is why.:
First the Plugin .. Fact: the Flash plugin even the later versions is wider spread an active on browsers as compared to Javascript witch has 11% and rising with the amount of people simply turing it off.
Fact: JavaScript and or flash can do things that server side script and html can not do.
Fact: Flash can render a page on any browser the same way. HTML /CSS attributes and DHTML can not do this.
Fact: Flash is not just a design / animation tool anymore. It can parse and write XML on the fly, read text files and communicate with server side script to work with databases.
Fact: Flash applications do not need to rely on “cookies”, “session variables” or have cookies turned on in order to navigate through the application.
Fact: web forms made in flash can be far superior for validation purposes. Immediately warn the user of an incorrect field entry with out javascript(less prevalent on the web in 2005.. look it up.) pop-up or resubmitting the page to itself.
Fact: Flash can use a timeline to load data elements(via flash remoting) and not have to reload an entire webpage.
Fact: on the flash stage your not restricted to tables in order to have good layout and design. without things jerking around and changing colors from browser to browser.
Fact: (with-in notice of the human eye)flash does not take longer to load than html. (miss use.. and long animations have distorted this) As a matter of fact flash can appear to load faster as you can choose what elements you want to load first.
Fact: flash can load play a movie with no other plug-in. (you don’t need real player, windows media player or quicktime.)
Fact: you can reproduce any javascript animation that would take hours. in a few minutes. Nothing is static everything can move on the fly.
Fact: Flash is not a stateless environment. (this is critical meaning you can envoke serverside script pages/and proxies on fhe fly. with out the user doing anything.)
I can go on and on. But .. that’s enough for topic starters.. lol let the bashing of this post begin.
scragar
05-10-2005, 07:57 AM
without "bashing" allow me to just state that I don't think anything could "take over the internet", That's a little to far fetched.
And flash is nice, I just don't intend to pay for a graphical interface that I can't handle very well(I'm no good with graphics of any kind) when I have a set of free languages available at my fingertips.
Samuel2816
05-10-2005, 08:14 AM
I don't think anything could "take over the internet", That's a little to far fetched. :) did not take long for that statement to get shot down..I can agree with that.. but you will see flash rise to a level far beyond that most anticipate. And I’m talking about dominance over the front end of the internet.
AdamGundry
05-10-2005, 04:25 PM
Seeing as you provided a lot of advantages of Flash, here are some of the disadvantages. (Yes, I know, bashing slightly.) I realise some of these may change as it gradually develops.
There are no good free Flash editors around. (Unless you happen to know one, in which case please tell me.)
The format is controlled by Macromedia (oops, sorry, now Adobe) and rather depends on them making money from the editor (see 1).
Flash is less accessible to the disabled and search engines. (This one is being fixed, I believe.)
Many of the advantages you list also apply to JavaScript, particularly as part of AJAX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX). (Where did you get the figure of 11% JavaScript availability from? The latest stats on thecounter.com give around 5%.)
In summary, I think Flash is a great technology and advantageous in some cases, but it's got a long way to go before it "takes over the Internet". There will, of course, always need to be server-side languages and I think that is where the greatest development will be seen. For example, while Flash provides rapid input validation you must still repeat that validation on the server in any application where security is important.
Adam
felgall
05-10-2005, 04:53 PM
5. Most people using Flash haven't learned to use it properly and so produce files that are 1000% of the size that they ought to be. Properly written Flash is great but 95% of Flash is written by people who don't know how to write it properly. (Then again about 90% of web pages aren't written properly either).
buntine
05-10-2005, 09:48 PM
Java Applets also offer most of the functionality a flash application can.
scragar
05-11-2005, 03:51 AM
Java's, javascript and flash are all different, it's just down to users preference.
buntine
05-11-2005, 04:06 AM
Java's, javascript and flash are all different, it's just down to users preference.
Thats just part of the reason why Flash will never "take over the internet". How can the "internet" be taken over anyway?
Regards.
scragar
05-11-2005, 07:15 AM
How can the "internet" be taken over anyway?
ask bill gates, he wants people to start making sites like: http://www.debitelshop.dk/
buntine
05-11-2005, 07:24 AM
When did Bill endorse that site? And that's the World Wide Web. He said "internet". :D
scragar
05-11-2005, 07:27 AM
he didn't endorse it as far as I know, but it refuses all browsers except IE to veiw it!
And I'd kinda forgoten he mentioned the net, not the www.
buntine
05-11-2005, 10:13 AM
I can't see the logic in your statement, though. Was it just a loose comment, or did you mean something by it? It doesn't make sense.
NogDog
05-11-2005, 10:44 AM
ask bill gates, he wants people to start making sites like: http://www.debitelshop.dk/
Wow, talk about alienating a significant fraction of your potential audience!
BeachSide
05-13-2005, 06:15 AM
Flash is a super powered tool! But it is just that a "tool". People misuse this tool for many reasons but mainly because they can, and get away with it.
You wouldn't use a hammer to cut a piece of wood would you? ;)
mtgentry
05-23-2005, 05:04 PM
Fact: Flash can render a page on any browser the same way.
Flash plays different on macs. Its dependant on the processor speed. Its the main reason why I dont use the .flv format - if someone is on a slower mac it will look choppy.
skateguy5
05-23-2005, 09:45 PM
without "bashing" allow me to just state that I don't think anything could "take over the internet", That's a little to far fetched.
And flash is nice, I just don't intend to pay for a graphical interface that I can't handle very well(I'm no good with graphics of any kind) when I have a set of free languages available at my fingertips.
dude thats not true,its not like its never happend before exemple :games , another example webpages another example
music and more. hows this true you might ask? well take a look your self ...see the internet wasn't always like this .the internet was originaly used for talking hell even cell phone go on the internet and any way whats wrong with flash. i think its a whole new opertunity of media sorry bout the errors with speeling :D well cya
SpectreReturns
05-28-2005, 12:17 AM
By take over the internet I suspect getting a 75%+ usage on the internet. Flash has like 8% right now.
Frets
06-08-2005, 04:15 PM
I'm not a fan of flv either however there are several apps which can convert to streaming swf5 and swf6 In some recent testing I've found that although they are none progressive formats they function the same as flv and are less intense on cpu usage.
egad....I shouldn't have found this thread just before I had to leave for work
more to follow in 10 hours
Frets
06-09-2005, 06:38 AM
Yeay I'm back.
Here are some nice stats from an independent survey
http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/penetration.html
98.3 %
In regards to authoring environment and swf tools. Macromedia is the owner of .fla format and licenses usage of swf. Technically Macromedia is the only company that can have .fla files. However swf is another arena and many many companies make applications which can export to swf format. Some are highly specialized such as vid to swf or audio to swf Such as Flix and Swideo or 3D vector in swf swift3D and envector. Cool Moves is a preffered tool for cartoon animation. Some operate at the server level such as Ming and then there is Swishmax. Swishmax is reasonably priced for the capabilites it posses. It can handle most import of actionscript seemlessly SwishScript is very akin to ActionScript. And with some limitations such as inablility load external actionscript and shape tweening swishmax is incredibly close to FlashMX The learning curve is much easier in swishmax then in flash. Open swi's (authoring files) as well as template swi's abound on the net. I have penned quite a few swi's thru the years built standard shout boxes rss feed readers mysql blogs etc etc using swishmax made swfs and php as a means of integration with databases etc etc. I've also known quite a few people who have taken the same route with swishmax and asp. I've built screensavers and standalone apps as well as multimedia presentations with swishmax and third party apps such as SWF studio and Swishstudio. for conversion to .exe format.
SWF has a place on the web and it's why top designers use it. Just because I can does not always mean I do use swf for everything. There are occasions where I don't want to scratch write/rewrite perfectly usable code simply to prove that I can.
I can separate what I may want to express personally as an artistic experience from professionally where the mission is to portray a business in it's most favorable light. Scripting is as hard as you make it in Swishmax. You want to demonstrate some property of physics then it might be good to have some physics under your belt. As far as the language as/Ss is based on ecma the same base that brought you javascript. Although how it's used in swf is much different then how it's used in javascript the syntax is virtually the same.
Events lead to actions
OnPress(){getURL "http://domain.tld";}
Flash format extends past the desktop browser.
Flash made swf's can be run on mobile devices
Swf's can be modified in many other was such as
standalone programs, Rich Internet applications, screen saver and vid format
Next Year the newest releases of set atop boxes (dvd players) will add swf format to thier ever expanding line-up Think about this an swf that plays on household dvd players. Flash has already replaced other streaming technologies in large for profit websites that specialize in audio/video content. Google can already read swf format for keyword searches (If you properly set it up) as well there are.
Personally I'm not as obsessed with page ranking as some folks are. People who visit my site generally know who I am what I'm preaching and my url. Page ranking and retail also don't jive most people haven't figured out how to put two words in a search input box let alone three to drive thru to what they need.
If you think page ranking is important no matter what the cost perhaps you should read this. http://flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?t=634876&highlight=walmart
I'm sure there is a thread laying around here on the same subject...
anyway I'm backsliding.
As for swf and search engines I found this a nifty piece of work using javascript and swishmax http://pro.html.it/articoli/id_615/idcat_31/pag_1/pag.html link credit http://wow-factor.com
Frets
toicontien
06-09-2005, 11:09 AM
I'd have to go with some other people's replies in that Flash is a tool. I don't mind flash sites as long as the format fits the content. Flash is for multimedia. If you're making a site heavy in multimedia flash is your tool. I still see flash as a processor hog, compared to Web pages. The average Flash file is going to be larger than the average Web page. Yes broadband is expanding rapidly. I'm on a 1.5 meg connection, but that doesn't mean I'm still willing to wait 10 to 20 seconds for a page to load. I want to see it NOW! And you can't beat the delivery speed of compressed text files (HTML, CSS and JS).
Broadband Internet has made people less patient. What used to take them 30 seconds they now expect in 10 or less. For most purposes, Properly coded Flash doesn't cut it. It's too processor intensive and large in file size compared properly coded HTML+CSS+JS pages. And HTML is free.
Another thing I don't like about flash is that it's missing the inate ability to resize text. I frequently resize my text to 200% its normal size. I stare at a screen all day and I hate to squint. The browser back and forward buttons are another great tool that's even underused by current designers. Yes those things can be worked in to Flash sites, but you have to code that functionality. Browser support for that is inate.
Flash will never take over the Net. It will become a larger player, but purely Flash developers aren't the Net's future. Purely HTML+CSS developers aren't either. Photoshop image slicers are another crowd that will never take over. All three groups will share the future. The bottom line is Flash is one of the tools available in Web design. It isn't Web design.
Frets
06-09-2005, 10:29 PM
I've responded to that elsewhere flv is not the only swf video format.
flv I've found to be cumbersome even in the best scenarios...earstwhile
there are several products that can convert vid to streaming .swf (read .swf not .flv)
which are compatible with older plugins (even swf50
In regards to file size this swf is 22k
http://www.mikechrysler.com/p/rss2.html
What makes it unique is that it operates as a front end for my blog.
It was simply an experiment nothing more and should be judged soley
on that basis. The swf calls a php script which intern retrieves entries from
my MySql Database then creates an rss feed and returns the feed to the swf.
ergo the only additional wieght is the rss content. Granted it does take a second
or so for the data to be processed and returned. I'm sure if I processed by other means,,,eg simply collecting the data from MySql and porting that to the dynamic text
the response time would be faster (as I have done those experiments in the past)
It could easily be used be modified to simply retrieve syndication feeds and be smaller.
There are greater lengths I could take this too.
,,,,,
When an swf is not preloaded it streams (*with the exception of playsound events)
One can use the timeline as an effective means of displaying content in a method so not all the content loads at the same time giving a seamless load of content.
Take note of the following swf's
http://mikechrysler.com/stylemasters/softcell.html
40k the content is xml which is 3k
You'll find that the total content value images and css at zen garden is much much more.
Here is another xml loaded swf http://www.mikechrysler.com/stylemasters/peasoup.html
10k no tables no div's no serverside scripting. I could have as easily loaded it with
a simple .txt document.
omnicity
06-10-2005, 05:12 AM
Why do you all assume that HTML / CSS / Javascript will stand still? There are many projects out there to do more exiting things, within the same framework, like SVG SMIL etc. Some of these will die, but only when they are replaced by something better.
The inate simplicity of HTML will not be abandoned any time soon.
Flash is slow to load.
Flash is unreliable.
Flash is frequently not available on Corporate machines.
Flash is not available on any of my machines!
Flash is proprietary.
Flash is hard to create.
Flash is hard to maintain.
Particularly if you want large development teams.
Flash is inappropraite for most web sites.
Flash requires an HTML layer for transport.
Need I go on?
Frets
06-10-2005, 09:33 AM
Well Yes quite frankly you do. Would you mind quailifying those responses
Slow to load-reread my most
Unreliable-read my post
Proprietary- as far as the swf plugin umm no swf works in all browsers os that I know of it has
Flash is frequently not available on Corporate machines.
Flash is not available on any of my machines!
get the flash plugin - the flash plugin comes defacto in Netscape standard install
IE Standard install came defacto in xp and apple. generally in order to not get the plugin on install you would need to either custom install or minimum install.
As well there is always the macromedia website it's a free install
http://macromedia.com/go/getflash/
Corporate machines- This is a matter for your Network administrator as he/she most likely has removed the plugin. It's most likely a coporate inititave that not having a flash plugin will allow you to focus on WORK while at WORK while on WORKS computer Using WORKS internet connection and WORKS electricity,
Hard to create-Depends on what your using to create swfs Yes there is a certain amount of learning when it comes to macromedia flash however there are several
other 3rd party products which are designed to be user friendly (swishmax)
Would you mind qualifying this statement?
Flash is hard to maintain.
Particularly if you want large development teams
No not really .fla's and .swi's operate in thier prospective programs rather easily
and are often shared modified. They as well can use dynamic text for content meaning
a person editing textual content does not need the program to do so. You don't need span or serverside scripting to update content in an swf. LoadVariables works just fine
see my post above (span btw is not supported by mozilla flavored browsers)
Flash is inappropraite for most web sites
Do you mean because you can't get espn.com on the web anymore at work?
http://espn.go.com/
Flash requires an HTML layer for transport.
No not really I advise using an object embed however if a browser gets a .swf url
it will try to display the content directly.
Flash also can be used mobile devices
Flash can be used/delivered as a self executing .exe file
Next year many set a top boxes (read dvd players) will add swf to file types
Currently most set a top players allow mpeg wmv avi mov macromedia flash and
swish allow for export to avi great for dvd production later on or dvd production directly.
Don't see that happening with html anytime soon.
BeachSide
06-11-2005, 07:34 PM
Frets - I agree with most of your points. All of your reasons are what makes Flash a great tool.
This however - http://mikechrysler.com/stylemasters/softcell.html - is excatly what I was talking about. This is a poor design. The designer could have cut the content file size in half by simply making the left part with the text an image with text coded directly into the HTML.
As it is now though not only can a search engine not see anything on the site but cannot go anywhere that it links to and that stuff they are trying to pull with this in the source... btw search engines will bust your site down for this take note of the PR n/a (page rank)
Is just ridiculous! Let me ask you WHY would you do a job twice??? Once putting in the Flash movie and once as comments in the HTML.
Also have a look at the rest of the site...
http://www.mikechrysler.com/notes/
I wont even comment on it as a couple of people already have about what is wrong there...
::Edit:: Upon looking at http://mikechrysler.com/stylemasters/softcell.html again it is even worse than I thought!!!! I just assumed it was in Flash because the picture on the right would change or something. I was WRONG the only thing that is not static is the text and this could have been done in CSS and would have probably cut the file size by more than half probably more like 80% at least :eek:
This is like only taking photgraphs with a $2000 video camera... Could you do it? You could but why would you want to? Seems like a waste of time, effort, tools, and thought energy to me!
Frets
06-11-2005, 07:55 PM
I didn't it was the engine....
Swishmax allows for export html + swf and because of numerous requests sent to the
vendors swishzone they opted to include all text as key words. granted I could have slapped together an object embed code and placed it the source code but quite frankly I was in a hurry to do other things at the time.
Frets
06-11-2005, 08:12 PM
This is like only taking photgraphs with a $2000 video camera
last time I checked swishmax was $99.95
http://www.swishzone.com/index.php?area=purchase&tab=purchase&product=max
On the other hand the favored html editor here Dreamweaver 2004 prices out at 239
Which is only an html editor. PS is ONLY an image editor is $599
BeachSide
06-11-2005, 08:15 PM
I didn't it was the engine....
Swishmax allows for export html + swf and because of numerous requests sent to the
vendors swishzone they opted to include all text as key words. granted I could have slapped together an object embed code and placed it the source code but quite frankly I was in a hurry to do other things at the time.
Again I state wrong tool for the job that was done...
Another real world example for you... would you use windows sound recorder to record, produce, mix, and master a professionally made CD? How many record companies do you think would want it, promote it, and/or release it to the public?
BeachSide
06-11-2005, 08:18 PM
last time I checked swishmax was $99.95
http://www.swishzone.com/index.php?area=purchase&tab=purchase&product=max
On the other hand the favored html editor here Dreamweaver 2004 prices out at 239
Which is only an html editor. PS is ONLY an image editor is $599
Which is 9,995% more than Notepad! The only tool necessary to create web pages in PHP, ASP, CSS, HTML, XHTML, XML, JavaScript, etc...
As a matter of fact there are a number of free editors that will edit the above languages. I have yet to see a free one that will create a swf file and if there are some I can guarantee you that there will be a 10:1 (if not more) ratio of available editors.
Again though I say... I love Flash and what it brings to the table as far as it's capabilities. I just believe in using it for what it was designed for.
Frets
06-11-2005, 08:30 PM
The subject here is swf not sound recorders. I could easily argue do paying clients
aware of different servers only allow there content to be hosted on win machines because the os costs.
Do designers use swishmax Yes Do they have paying clients who are aware that
the swf is generated not from flash but from swishmax yes.
Frets
06-11-2005, 08:54 PM
add in
You want to buy flash because it's the only way you feel you can impress your client
buy flash.
Perhaps someday you too will have a firm which starts at $60,000 dollars per site like
2A and you will get those big jobs like Ford Motor Company. (which btw I believe priced out over $1 mil) Maybe someday.
Any flat file editor can create javascript php asp css If your good you know how to code. Many flat file editors can store snippets of code for reuse html-kit for example which is free.
JPnyc
06-11-2005, 09:31 PM
Flash will remian window dressing until search engine bots learn to crawl it.
BeachSide
06-12-2005, 01:56 AM
Flash will remian window dressing until search engine bots learn to crawl it.
From what I understand they already have this in the works. 'They' keep saying that it will be soon, but you know how that goes. Even then it will remain, as you say, window dressing. It was never meant to be a full fledged replacment for html sites.
Perhaps someday you too will have a firm which starts at $60,000 dollars per site like
2A and you will get those big jobs like Ford Motor Company. (which btw I believe priced out over $1 mil) Maybe someday.
I am currently working on a project that is around $50k and yes when I am done there will be Flash involved. It will be for a graphical display of their reports which are drawn from a database. All AS too which is fun fun!
I get the impression that you think I am saying that Flash is evil and one should not use it...
I love Flash, hey even the first full website I ever designed (http://lastradainc.com) was completely done in Flash/PHP/mySQL
I was only pointing out what is considered bad practise in Flash design. Even by Macromedia standards.
Webjedikungfu
11-26-2006, 10:19 AM
I'm a newcomer to coding(4 months) working with PHP and XML, HTML and CSS. Just started developing in flash a week ago.
From a beginners standpoint I'm going to say that flash has definite advantages(especially with browser differences out there) over other conventional design and presentation methods.
I'm finding I can tie all of my PHP, XML, HTML scripts to flash.
Flash will continue to make it easier for newcomers to accomplish their website dreams!
In wrapping up I'll just say that "FLASH" is that cool, good looking person everybody loves to hate on!(cus they are so freakin' cool)
Screw google, my site will stand on it's own just by function and word of mouth
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