Why is there a Forum called DHTML

[BigMoosie]

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[rhsunderground]

i think it's to take off some of the weight on the javascript forum. it's the biggest forum by far.

[Ben Rogers]

Well, yeah, didn't most people here access the page from the javascript source? I think it's useless, myself... AFAIC, DHTML accounts for all useful JS, if it means modding the DOM.

[Stephen Philbin]

I think it's daft having a DHTML forum. DHTML doesn't even exist. It's pure pisch. An antiquated "buzzword" from the bad old days that meant nothing then and even less now. In my mind "DHTML" runs very much along side the phrase "html programmer".

[gimp]

*agrees with Herer*

[rhsunderground]

Moved to feedback.


now make your case where the admins are likely to read it, and you can discuss it with them.

[Stephen Philbin]

Well nothing's gonna change really is it. It's already been decided that DHTML stays hasin't it? I seem to remember it has.

[David Harrison]

Grr, how dare you speak ill of my forum. ;)

[Stephen Philbin]

Well you do have to admit it is rather cack. An irrelevant forum based on irrelevant buzzword from an irrelevant method of coding. Even if it is supposed to be DOM based, then it should at least be renamed to ECMAScript/DOM.

[JPnyc]

There are a number of forum categories that aren't languages. Multimedia isn't a language either, but it has a purpose here. The JS forum has 10x as many posts as the others. It needed some of that traffic diverted, even though half the people who come here with DHTML questions don't know what it is.

[MstrBob]

Perhaps we could have a DOM forum then? Instead of DHTML, I think it would work to divert traffic well. Of course then we'll get people saying "Well, you can use more than Javascript to access the DOM". True. Heh, what's next then, an Ajax forum? I perhaps a Javascript/DOM forum. Description of "Working with the DOM through Javascript". Maybe I'm rambling.

[Ben Rogers]

You are, but it's sensible. If people get snarky, we can just say "read the description, you skank" then block'em. ^^ Maybe that's just me,

[Charles]

Perhaps we could have a DOM forum then? Instead of DHTML, I think it would work to divert traffic well. Of course then we'll get people saying "Well, you can use more than Javascript to access the DOM". True. Heh, what's next then, an Ajax forum? I perhaps a Javascript/DOM forum. Description of "Working with the DOM through Javascript". Maybe I'm rambling.As JavaScript = ECMA Script + DOM we don't get any further. Perhaps we could have a W3C DOM section and disallow document.all, HTMLElement.innerHTML and HTML.innerText.

[MstrBob]

Are you saying Javascript is ECMAScript and the DOM? ECMA is the standardized Javascript, I wouldn't say that Javascript is also the DOM. The DOM is just an interface JS can use. I really think Javascript, and accessind the DOM via Javascript are two different things.

[Charles]

There isn't any one Document Object Model (DOM) and for JavaScript to be any use at all in a browser it needs a DOM.

[MstrBob]

But is Javascript really limited to a browser? I know what you're saying, though, without the DOM Javascript is pointless, because that's how it access the document. Perhaps we could replace the DHTML forum with a DOM forum. Just dealing with the DOM in general, not even Javascript specific. At anyrate, I think it makes more sense than a DHTML forum. A question there will be HTML, CSS, or Javascript, no? So why muddle everything into one forum when it can be broken down so that people more experienced with the neccessary technology can assist.

[Charles]

But even if you are using document.write() you are are using a DOM, just not the W3C DOM. Though, the W3C DOM has a lot in chapter 2, DOM level 0, that is old and familiar. Separating out the DHTML made sense once, but not anymore. And if we tried to come up with another distinction then we would do well to find something that will inforce itself. We could have a W3C DOM section but then we would have to keep moving posts that involve HTMLElement.innerHTML. Perhaps we could split it into "The abomination that is a JavaScript dependant page" and "JavaScript that does no harm".

[BigMoosie]

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[Stephen Philbin]

Hehe. Perhaps we should replace the DHTML section with a "Document Object Manipulation" section. That way we could have sensible questions about using the W3C dom (both server and client side) there and the people that just get dreamweaver to fill their pages with crap (bad/proprietary Js) and can't figure out why their page chokes, won't notice the DOM section as they madly rush to the Javascript section to demand that someone rewrites the script for them so they can copy and paste it back to ther document.

There aren't many sections of this forum I do visit often (I usually just fester in the general section these days), but a DOM section is one I'd definitely visit often.

[BigMoosie]

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[Ben Rogers]

I'll second that.

A forum where people can show a script, or a project they're working on, and people can use it, and discuss. It's not necessarily a review: you're just saying "hey, this is pretty nifty, anyone want me to add some features, or...?" where most things would be released under CC (http://creativecommons.org/).

Such a thing could be good for the forums. I'm sure many usability discussions would spark up: usability is a topic that's kind of hard to cover (though it is tied into accessibility, this would be a more comfortable place to discuss it, and it'd keep things organized); people could show off their extensions, and get useful feedback on them- so, Bob, this might be of interest to you- and if someone had a blogware they were looking into improving, they could post it there, in a .zip.

If we did have such a topic, side-note: a sticky on "common features for so-and-so" would be useful, as a sort of definitive list (one of them likely an extension on Anne Vankesteren's offering (http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/08/weblog-system)).

[MstrBob]

Aren't there already numerous websites for that type of thing?

Anyway, I'm all for a DOM forum instead of DHTML. I just think it will fit better, as most of the people haven't the fuzziest of what the DOM is. Perhaps lengthen the name so that you don't get one post people jumping in there, or label W3C DOM or the like. Because that type of forum would, I think, suit us better than DHTML, which in reality is simply combining the other technologies.

[Stephen Philbin]

DOM! - DOM! - DOM! :D

Yeah I'd definitely prefer a W3C DOM section. I also think a code sharing section would be a very good idea too. Yes there are many other sites out there that offer code I think there's a jupitermedia mailing list for it isn't there?), but they miss out on any contributions people such as myself would make because they demand commitment from authors which is something I'd not be willing to make for what is only a by-the-by kind of thing for me. In all the time I've been here I've only put up about 3 scripts/files for others to use, each of which as sunk like a rock into the thread history where nobody will find it again because it is not a discussion, just a "gimmy". So nobody needs to reply and therefore the thread is soon lost.

Just call it "Free code" and then have subsections for languages. That way it'd probably save folks answering the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and......

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

why not "Code Market" or "Code Sharing", "free code" is too....hmm...it too....

[Ben Rogers]

"Free code" would attract the wrong audience, and "code market" implies the involvmenet of currency. "Code sharing" is the best of those 3, and I can't think of one better.

[BigMoosie]

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[rch10007]

:) Don't you think it's nice that there is a forum named DHTML for those that aren't sure exactly what they are searching for? If you are trying to learn HTML or javascript, online tutorials use the term DHTML. When you come to a site like this, you look for what you are familiar with hence the forum labeled DHTML. If you are more experienced, why would you be viewing those forums anyway?

:confused: Honestly, if you look at the name and break it down it's D-DynamicHTML. Does this mean you have to use javascript to make an HTML page dynamic? Of course not! How about the use of PHP and HTML to make a dynamic site? What's all the hype about the use of javascript anyway? Since Windows SP2 came out javascript has been void in most sites with users of IE. Server side is the way to go and I think that's the way it should be.

:D Webdeveloper has done a great job with it's selection of forums to help those that need it and that includes having the DHTML forum.

[MstrBob]

Wait, what? Javascript is enjoying a resurgance right now with Ajax. Although you could make an argument that DynamicHTML includes server side, that makes everything more ambiguous! By people chosing their specific problem, we can help easier. You know if what you are doing is Javascript, HTML, or PHP, ect. so place it as such. Makes it easier for everyone.

[rch10007]

I'm with you! Didn't know about the resurgance though. My point was that a forum for DHTML gives those that are starting out a familiar term to associate with. The DHTML forum, I think, can guide you to figure out which scripting language you would like to learn to work with. God knows there are enough choices out there!

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

interesting thing this AJAX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX)...

[MstrBob]

I'm with you! Didn't know about the resurgance though. My point was that a forum for DHTML gives those that are starting out a familiar term to associate with. The DHTML forum, I think, can guide you to figure out which scripting language you would like to learn to work with. God knows there are enough choices out there!

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. The posters know what they're using, it's really just a bit of a collection bin for a jumble of things. I think we'd be better suited with a W3C Dom section or something similar.

[rch10007]

What I am getting at is that every tutorial (book or online) uses the term "DHTML." It is a familiar term for those that are new to web development. Having a section that helps explain what DHTML is, in my opinion, a good idea. Once people figure out more about integrating scripts with HTML they can move on to forums for the scripting language of their choice. If I see a forum called DOM I wouldn't know what the topics were about. When I see DHTML I think "Oh I read that this is what makes a site dynamic, I better look in here to see what it is about!"

[MstrBob]

This isn't a tutorial site. This is a forum for discussing issues, solving problems, and generally discussing different languages and aspects of web development. DHTML itself is nothing, nothing! Just a term thrown around when you use Javascript to manipulate the DOM of a document. It's as pointless as having a LAMP or Ajax forum. If you have a JS problem, ask in the JS forum. Your issue will boil down to a language. Even when I just started and was very confused, I at least knew "Hey, I'm using Javascript" or "Hey, I'm using HTML" and realized "I should ask in the appropriate forum".

[rch10007]

Nope, not a tutorial site. BUT eventually you will end up here as you make your way into web development.

It's amazing that since you are so smart and you know what scripting languages are which, that you are dumb enough to not realize that we are not all as smart as you! Did you read that twice?

Tutorials don't teach everything there is to know nor will this forum offer everyone a place to exchange ideas or concerns they have. Categories such a DHTML give people an option of where to start in a forum. When you are new to anything you tend to migrate to what is familiar. DHMTL is a great starting place for those that aren't familiar with scripting languages and what they offer.

[BigMoosie]

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[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

It's amazing that since you are so smart and you know what scripting languages are which, that you are dumb enough to not realize that we are not all as smart as you! Did you read that twice?


do you mean people write some stuff in JS and don't know what language it is??? :confused:

[rch10007]

No, I meant MstrBob seems to know ever thing now and he doesn't have time to understand noob's that are in search of help.

Is it hard to grasp that people search for what is familiar?

Who cares anyway! If I can help someone as I gain experience (even in a DHTML forum), I will. I started out once too and remember the difficulty of trying to sort out which scripting language I should stick with and learn - javascript isn't it. When I went to forums to read post about a subject, having a forum labeled DHTML was useful for me! This is my only point.

BTW - sorry for saying dumb in my previous post!

[Stephen Philbin]

It's amazing that since you are so smart and you know what scripting languages are which, that you are dumb enough to not realize that we are not all as smart as you!

Please refrain from resorting to child like insults, they really don't get anyone anywhere.

I'm very firmly with the folks at Google and Bob and most other sensible people. It's just Javascript or PHP or whatever you're using to alter/make your pages. DHTML, like AJAX, is just another silly and pointless "buzzword". Little more than a word that naive designers say to their clients to make it sound as if they know more than they actually do. And I'm yet to meet anyone that's written their own script/page and doesn't know what language they used to do it.


<script type="text/dunno" language="I'm not sure really">
</script>
?

I doubt it.

[rch10007]

WOW! Another know it all!

How about you please refrain from giving me your two cents about how I should handle one's responses to my posts. Can you do that?

You sound like the same broken record in all the other posts so I guess I will do this one more time and I will not be replying to any more responses.

People look for familiar "BUZZWORDS" when coming to a website. DHTML is one that has been thrown around and most noob's understand that DHTML makes a site dynamic but aren't exactly sure what it is. A forum called DHTML gives them a starting point until they learn enough to post in another forum. Consider it having training wheels until you can post questions in the forum you are actually interested in.

In other words, DHTML is a catch all for those who don't understand what exactly it is they are looking for yet!!! So what is so wrong about having a forum for them?

Can you dig it?

[MstrBob]

Alright, I think first and foremost you need to chill a little. Slinging insults gets nobody anywhere, it just degrades into a pointless argument and the value of this thread is lost. Look, here's my point:


Tutorials I've seen and followed have all told me what I'm working in.
DHTML is not a technology, or a matter, or anything at all except for a buzzword. Even the value of this word is kind of pointless, because as this thread shows, it's so vague.
Vague Forum topics mean more confusion, more posts, and less people willing to sort through it
Those whom I've encountered and helped have known what technology they're using. They know when they're using Javascript, newcomers aren't that ignorant. And if they truly don't know what they're using, than they have much bigger problems than what brought them to the forums in the first place.
DHTML is just creating a second JS forum, with really no benefit. How do you differentiate where you put a post?
Even a complete newcomer knows how to organise they're post. Give them some credit, they can figure out where it goes. I first started going to an HTML forum years ago. It had a number of forums for other technologies, and all I knew was HTML, but somehow, I always managed to figure out that my HTML question went in the HTML forum.
DHTML itself isn't very popular anymore. Many people associate it with horrid GIF/moving JS sites and distance themselves from it. Should we have a forum for every buzzword that pops up then? Where's our AJAX forum? The problem is, I can do DHTML and AJAX in numerous technologies, so I think it's really too vague.

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

and so many people cross-post in JS/DHTML forums....

[Ben Rogers]

Rch- you seriously need to calm down. We get what you're saying--people look to DHTML as a matter of "oh, this is what I want"--even if this is wrongly, you shouldn't start out with JS (I did, too, to an extent, it's common beginner behaviour to want to go for the flashy stuff)--but why should this hinder making the forum more..."refined," for lack of a better word? I'm sure since the majority of these people are making their way from javascript source--as I myself did--that the ones who don't will manage to make the jump to asking Javascript interacting with HTML questions in the Javascript forum.

Change is good, Rch. Deep breaths.

[BigMoosie]

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[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

;)

[rhsunderground]

the forii were recently rearranged to get a better, more accurate grouping.

[JPnyc]

LOL@ forii !

[rhsunderground]

a little latin never hurt anybody ;)

[rhsunderground]

...


that joke was totally unnecessary

:p

[JPnyc]

No joke is necessary. But I removed it for ya

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

a little latin never hurt anybody ;)
never

[thedigitalnomad]

I'm too lazy to read through all these posts, so if anyone has already made this suggestion can slap me.

How about a subforum!! *gasp!* Keep the JS forum (obviously), and stick the DHTML in a subforum there. That way it's not taking up as much space on the main page ;P