I am. I'm so pissed off at this. I can't even land a $10/hr job doing a simple login system w/ admin features. I might as well give up doing web development and work at Wal-mart or at a gas station.
Actually, I'll just post it here, since I have all the time in the world since I have no job.
Gates puzzled why more students don't choose computer science
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Bill Gates
Bill Gates (AP)
By ELIZABETH M. GILLESPIE
Associated Press Writer
July 18, 2005, 5:52 PM EDT
REDMOND, Wash. -- Speaking to hundreds of university professors, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates said Monday that he's baffled more students don't go into computer science.
Gates said that even if young people don't know that salaries and job openings in computer science are on the rise, they're hooked on so much technology _ cell phones, digital music players, instant messaging, Internet browsing _ that it's puzzling why more don't want to grow up to be programmers.
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"It's such a paradox," Gates said. "If you say to a kid, 'Yeah, what are the 10 coolest products you use that your parents are clueless about, that you're good at using,' I don't think they're going to say, 'Oh, you know, it's this new breakfast cereal. And I want to go work in agriculture and invent new cereals or something.' ... I think 10 out of 10 would be things that are software-driven."
Gates made his remarks on the first day of the annual Microsoft Research Faculty Summit, which drew nearly 400 computer science professors from 175 schools in 20 countries to the software maker's campus.
Sharing the stage with Gates, Maria Klawe, Princeton University's dean of Engineering and Applied Science, said most students she talks to fear that computer science would doom them to isolating workdays fraught with boredom _ nothing but writing reams of code.
Gates said computer scientists need to do a better job of dispelling that myth and conveying that it's an exciting field.
"How many fields can you get right out of college and define substantial aspects of a product that's going to go out and over 100 million people are going to use it?" Gates said. "We promise people when they come here to do programming ... they're going to have that opportunity, and yet we can't hire as many people as we'd like."
Citing statistics from UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute, Klawe said students' interest in computer science fell more than 60 percent from 2000 to 2004, even though salaries have increased and more jobs have opened up.
Klawe opened an hourlong question-and-answer with Gates by asking him what he thought could be done to stem a decline in federal funding for computer science research and graduate education.
In past three years, she noted, the Defense Department's research agency _ a major source of money for computer science academics _ has cut its funding for information technology research at universities almost in half.
The National Science Foundation is awarding a smaller percentage of grants for computer science than for other fields, she said.
Gates said Microsoft and other high-tech companies need to keep telling the government it's making a big mistake _ one that could forestall stunning advancements in medicine, environmental science and other fields.
He also said companies can help by boosting their own investments in research and development.
"The best investment we've ever made is having our Microsoft Research groups," Gates said.
Modeled after academic research facilities, Microsoft Research focuses on work that is relevant to Microsoft's product lineup, such as security or search technology.
Products including the TabletPC have come out of the research arm, which has labs in Redmond; San Francisco; California's Silicon Valley; Cambridge, England; Beijing and Bangalore, India.
___P>
On the Net:
Microsoft Research: http://research.microsoft.com/
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In regards to the article, it's no wonder that people aren't pursuing Computer Sci degrees--all the businesses are just outsourcing everything to the 3rd world countries that have developers that can do the job for 1/100th of what you'd charge here in America. Sorry for that run-on sentence, but I'm seriously aggravated and I'm scared for my future in web development.
I love doing it. But man, this is just sad.
the tree
07-27-2005, 07:12 AM
If you think about it, does it matter were these jobs are getting outsourced to? The point is that you're not getting a job because someone else will do that job for less.
I guess the real challenge is proving that you are more than worth the extra cost.
Unfortunately, there is a distirbingly small amount of companies that seem to care about quality or even profit when they see a low cost.
I don't think that you account the reducing amount of people taking computer science degrees to just one thing.
Stephen Philbin
07-27-2005, 07:54 AM
I Still haven't tried for a job yet. I'm still trying to get my CMS finished. It is worrying though, how many potential clients will disregard quality for price. I guess the clients are like the crap developers themselves and just figure that if it looks ok on their screen, it must be perfectly ok. I'm not talking about outsourcing alone though, I mean globally.
I was offered a one off job yesterday, but I didn't even need to turn it down. I was asked to fix up a journalists site. I told her the last person to build her site was a cowboy and if she wanted me to do it I'd have to rebuild it from scratch, including the database and scripting. I said it'd probably take about 3 (maybe more) weeks, but it would be of infinitely greater quality. I told her she could find plenty of people that would do it in less than half the time, but she'd still end up with the same sh** and it'd still malfunction on more browsers than it'd function correctly on. I haven't heard anything since, so it looks like it's gone to another cowboy. *shrug*
toicontien
07-27-2005, 08:34 AM
I think you're just not seeing all your attributes. Outsourcing won't remain that large of a job drain for one big reason: Companies owned by English-speaking people are sending Web Dev jobs to people who don't speak English. You don't have a communication barrier. Secondly, you need to find a niche. Explore one aspect of web design and dev, and focus on it. If someone else can do it cheaper, find a way to do it for the same amount of money but quicker. Innovate.
I've also got a friend who mainly does PHP scripting. His boss sends him a $300 job, which he promptly farms out to someone who's willing to do it for $150. You might say he is making half as much, but for very little work.
But find a niche and you'll never have a problem finding a job.
Snitchcat
07-27-2005, 10:26 AM
I'll just add: find a sustainable niche -- it needs to be big enough to pay you what you want, but also small enough so you can hold the monopoly.
And no, not all IT/dev jobs are outsourced to India / Indonesia. While their programmers highly trained, quality control problems persist (although this has been and continues to be improving rapidly).
There are still plenty of web-developement jobs around. Do you have to stick to one national market? Seems to me the world is slightly larger than one nation? ;) (^_^)
qzn
07-27-2005, 11:43 AM
In regards to the article, it's no wonder that people aren't pursuing Computer Sci degrees--all the businesses are just outsourcing everything to the 3rd world countries that have developers that can do the job for 1/100th of what you'd charge here in America.
This should change once their country continues to develop, thats the bright side economically, they will demand wage increases as their heads and pockets get larger.
There are advantages I believe a person in a developed country has:
We are witness to the marketing in television and radio ads.
(Trend prediction is difficult without this)
We have access to up to date reading material and access to high-end equipment.
As long as new graduates continue to not exist - it only makes you more valuable.
Some people have old predjudices and like to deal with people that they can deal with face to face, or may look similar to them, or at least they are able to visit their business and see how things work before signing with them.
Maybe these ideas can keep your head up for a few days.
Job hunting is tough in any field and if you have to take that 8hr an hr job, well take it and keep your options open. Continue to to do what makes you happy and if the money doesn't come, you could always move to India :)
invertedpanda
07-27-2005, 11:53 AM
Developers like me aren't going anywhere. I develop for people in the area, and smaller/medium sized businesses. I give a more personal touch to my clients, and am willing to meet with them face to face to discuss what they want in a website. I have found quite often that a number of web design businesses don't listen to the customer - sure, they do their work for cheap, but the cost is either in quality, or customer service (or both).
pratik_learner
07-27-2005, 11:58 AM
Hello, well many of you are claiming that Indian developers are not of higher quality and just develop crap at smaller prices. However this is totally untrue. Well inspite of the fact that the outsourcing results in job-loss in certain countries but on the contrary there are job opportunities in developing countries like India where much of population thrives in poverty.
The Internet is all about globalisation so it's just that someone might be better( or cheaper). Well it's not the end. Afterall there's a good side to it also. There will be more sites from developing countries since people will afford to make use of web-design services at cheaper rates globally.
Why r the Brits complaining now well they did the same to us 1.5 centuries ago. Didn't they? It's payback time but less rudely.
invertedpanda
07-27-2005, 12:24 PM
Hello, well many of you are claiming that Indian developers are not of higher quality and just develop crap at smaller prices. However this is totally untrue. Well inspite of the fact that the outsourcing results in job-loss in certain countries but on the contrary there are job opportunities in developing countries like India where much of population thrives in poverty.
The Internet is all about globalisation so it's just that someone might be better( or cheaper). Well it's not the end. Afterall there's a good side to it also. There will be more sites from developing countries since people will afford to make use of web-design services at cheaper rates globally.
Why r the Brits complaining now well they did the same to us 1.5 centuries ago. Didn't they? It's payback time but less rudely.
I'm saying that outsourced development can't offer what developers like me offer - Not many European or Indian developers are willing to fly to the US to meet the people they are developing for, in order to discuss the needs of the business, and have an exchange of ideas. Communication by any other means tends to be unwieldy, especially for smaller and medium sized businesses.
scojo1
07-27-2005, 12:44 PM
We promise people when they come here to do programming ... they're going to have that opportunity, and yet we can't hire as many people as we'd like.
Yet they rejected me.... interesting....there goes my remainig self-esteem :)
BuezaWebDev
07-27-2005, 02:47 PM
I'm glad this subject sparked a lot of discussion.
In regards to waiting for their countries to develop, how long will that take? That will take years... It's not just web development either, it can easily be software like C++, Java, etc.
The whole IT industry is being controlled by businesses that want solutions at low prices.
About the quality being lower...I disagree. It's basically whatever I can do, they can do at the same quality, but at a much much much lower price. (Totally pisses me off), I guess I should start looking into a different career? Like civil engineering? That won't be outsourced (sarcasm).
buntine
07-27-2005, 05:44 PM
It is interesting, though. We rarely fill one third of a lecture theatre these days. I spoke to a lectured about it who told me that only 6 years ago they needer two lecture theatres for the IT students.
I am working on a project at the moment that is being outsourced to India. We were initially going to design the frontend aswell but we decided that we could make similar profit with much less work by outsourcing the design work to an Indian company.
Regards.
poiuy
07-27-2005, 10:28 PM
I think the secret is learning skills that cross over into other computer related areas that are tough to outsource. i.e. networking.
Speaking for myself, sure the company I work for could save an arm and a leg outsourcing the web development that I do, however, it balances out with how much money I save them with my networking and programming abilities. Not to mention the second someone has trouble with their PC or needs updates or software upgrades, etc. you're right there to assist. A little tough putting a CD into a drive from India.
Admittedly rather than being 100% competent at one field I'm only 75% at all. However that's ten steps ahead of those who specialize in ONE field. Of course most of the people I work for don't know that since they're 0% competent in anything computer related...
Also, I agree with invertedpanda's original statement. It is amazing how many small/medium size companies don't even have website's in the U.S. OR they are so old they haven't been updated in years. Tons of business could be picked up pursuing those guys. Many of them want to be on the web they just don't know how to do it. Not to mention if you can get a company to increase their sales and profit margins they may remain loyal to you for a long time. If not you'll at least make money in the meantime until they get big enough to outsource you.
scojo1
07-28-2005, 12:24 AM
I agree with poiuy. Pure programmers, developers, sysadmins seem to be dying out, at least in the US (unless you work for a large company I suppose, but at present, I don't). I too could be outsourced, but because I can help out with general netwok admin, and help out with general IT issues around the office. My employer isn't eating my salary while inbetween projects.
pratik_learner
07-28-2005, 09:40 AM
Yes this is self-evident No matter how much you complain of outsourcing. It's just that the basic law of nature will live on- Survival of the Fittest.
Well I though offer some sympathy for people from the US who are losing their jobs but here jobs are being created. So you see there isn't just a bad side to this. Well all those claiming that people to whom jobs are outsourced are not up-to-the-mark and do not produce good quality results.
But the on-ground reality is far different. The thing is there is no substantial evidence for this false claim. Besides if the quality of the products was so poor then the company wouldn't outsource a second time, would it? Well the claims are made as if all the programmers in the US are invincible and others (to whom the jobs are outsourced) are dumbasses.
This narrow-minded views are nothing but ancentral reflections of racial discrimination towards coloured foreigners. We are also humans, and can produce results equivalent to those abroad or even better. Accept it we give better value-for-money.
poiuy
07-28-2005, 10:58 AM
pratik_learner I'll agree there is a small amount of racism involved but the reality is Americans, as in other countries, are "proud" people. It wouldn't matter if the jobs were getting outsourced to Europe.
And you're right anybody can produce equal results regardless of skin color. I hear just as many complaints from people who outsource as I do from people who "in"source. In all honestly I hear more from people who outsource but they become stifled a bit when they realize how much they are paying.
Regardless of what country does it most people don't realize that there is no Harry Potter wand to wave to produce an advanced website overnight so they complain.
Heck since we're on the subject of the U.S. outsourcing problem I want to know why Americans can't come up with their own original reality TV show's Pretty much every show on TV is a copy of something done in another country. We even outsource IDEAS!!!!!
I've been looking at some freelancer websites that have web dev jobs posted.
A lot of them are from the UK, but the thing is, I notice these headlines:
DO NOT APPLY IF YOU ARE FROM INDIA/INDONESIA/THAILAND (OUTSOURCER)
DO NOT APPLY IF YOU ARE GOING TO OUTSOURCE THIS PROJECT TO INDI/INDONESIA/THAILAND
Which tells you about British pride, I think they want to keep their sites made by the people that live in their country.
Also, I see a lot of, UK ONLY.
toicontien
07-28-2005, 01:00 PM
This outsourcing "problem" will simply skip from one country to another. Indians will demand higher wages eventually and another country, with human beings capable of the same results but with lower costs, will fill in. The next 100 years will be known for the mass exoduses of jobs from developed to developing countries, and then back and forth.
But here's something that most of us don't realize: How many Indian companies can afford Web sites? Perhaps not as many as can in the U.S. or U.K. Once the economy in India develops to a certain point, there might be more demand for Web sites by Indian companies than what Indian developers can provide. The outsourcing to India might be greatly reduced and more Web dev jobs could stay in the U.S. and U.K. Basically the U.S. and other companies are financing a budding web dev industry that will grow faster than the home demand -- to a certain point.
Lastly, if you really look at how capitalist economies grow, the more money everyone has, the more money there is to be made. It just takes time. We're all stuck in a transition period in the world economy. Embrace it. Learn about it. We'll all find a way to get our piece.
poiuy
07-28-2005, 01:00 PM
Geez pratik_learner I don't know how many forums I've read on this site that put down Microsoft all the time -- mostly by Americans. McDonalds had a strong hold on it's industry years ago and people just simply came out with comparable and better products to even out the playing field. Yes MS is a big hurdle to jump but it's jumpable.
However your logic on pricing is a little askew. You're thinking for your own personal reasons and not in a business frame of mind. Sure $500 is good for an Indian to live on but you'd give a company a website that could possibly make them millions for $500 measly dollars??? Ok if it was for my cousin who wants a personal Blog site that would be a good price.
If Bill Gates called you tommorow to do a simple site for him you'd have no problem doing it for $500 considering he's a billionaire. I don't think so...
The industry has a value added cost to it. The Americans complain because the industry is being sold like a cheap hooker.
And just to clarify the complaints I hear are about how long it takes to get things done. Things don't look the same way as what they asked for. Some requested updates or changes never get done. etc. etc. A lot of it is their own technological ingorance but the types of complaints are equal from country to country.
But then it's kind of like giving the kid a hard time who's cutting your grass for $20 versus the $50 a lawn service would charge you. You just sort of put up with it for the price. Since you're screwing him over any ways you never tell him he could easliy charge $40 still be competitive and double his profit.
BuezaWebDev
07-28-2005, 01:51 PM
The Americans complain because the industry is being sold like a cheap hooker.
I could NOT agree more. I concur, completely.
sparq
07-28-2005, 01:54 PM
I guess you have to look at it from their perspective.
Theres a HUGE majority of the population working and getting by for as little as $1 / day., even more on just $2 / day. A DAY... not an hour, A DAY! So thats $365 - $730 per year. If someone can design ONE webpage, and make an ENTIRE YEARS worth of pay, for 1-2 weeks of work... that is mighty impressive for them.
Surely its nothing compared to us, where $10 / hour can be tough to make a living off of. Because we have to have things like cars, houses, cell phones, mortgage payments, etc. etc. etc. If you want to live like a king, packup your laptop, solar cell, and go move to a third world country. Do 1 job a month and learn to survive on that. I bet you would be amazed at what you could do. hehehe
Stephen Philbin
07-28-2005, 02:25 PM
Why r the Brits complaining now well they did the same to us 1.5 centuries ago. Didn't they? It's payback time but less rudely.
I hope your comments are not aimed at me. If you'd take the time to read my post again with more attention and less bias, you'd note that I was stating that there was a problem with people sacrificing quality for speed in my own country, as well as the problem of people in other countries being able to offer equal quality for a lower price.
Please do not make assumptions about my character or beliefs in future.
poiuy
07-28-2005, 04:29 PM
sparq I agree but the hipocracy here is that pratik_learner's opening statement bashed Microsoft for being a "monopoly".
Geez if some Indian programmers weren't complacent making money for just themselves they could get together raise the rates a little. Take the extra "unneeded" cash and start there own business trying to make an operating system that will out do Windows and sell it to the world at a lower cost. A little competition always helps us -- the consumer.
poiuy
07-28-2005, 05:24 PM
Better yet they can charge more and take the extra cash that they don't "need" and wire it to BuezaWebDev :)
Hey wait a minute I just spotted that! BuezaWebDev is that British Columbia CANADA? I know of a few ex-U.S. webhosting companies that I've used that relocated to Canada vs. the U.S. to lower costs.
PLEASE don't tell me this is a trend. Pretty soon "our" U.S. movies will be getting filmed in New Delhi :eek:
buntine
07-28-2005, 08:05 PM
Bollywood all the way!
bokeh
12-29-2005, 06:43 PM
Hello, well many of you are claiming that Indian developers are not of higher quality and just develop crap at smaller prices.There are plenty of things Indians may not necessarily be good at; for example could you remind me the last time India either won the olympic 100 metre race or had a heavyweight boxing world champ?
Presently in the UK the latest thing to be outsourced to India seems to be telephone call centres. Several banks were involved but later these had to revert back to the UK due to data theft by unscrupulous Indian employees.
hitstanz
12-30-2005, 12:27 AM
Hi all,
Read the complete thread, and my advice is to be honest with yourself.
I am working with a small firm of 100 employees. 80 are here in India and 20 are in US. 5 out of 20 (in US) are white Americans.
So thats the panacea we figured out from previous experiences.
If you want a techie with your accent we have it or if you care only for getting work done , we got that too.
Quality cant be a issue, just get over the myth.
Someone wrote about networking, I guess you havent heard of remote infrastructure management, companies like EDS have already started outsourcing their networking device management.
There was an another issue about salaries, well compare the MAC INDEX for that. No doubt salaries are fatter in US but why would they pay you when arent doing anything better.
The Key difference is : Innovation and Adaptability.
US is still a leader in innovating technologie, and once India catches up with that then be ready with your bags to migrate to India.
Adaptability is the factor both nations have to look forward to.
chrisranjana
12-30-2005, 06:41 AM
I understand that outsourcing saves you cost , But I really believe the whole outsourcing thing and the H1B visa thing started due to shortage of skilled manpower rather than ONLY the cost factor. I sincerely believe that if majority of americans are affected by this H1B and outsourcing, the US GOVT would never have increased the H1B quota from time to time nor it would have allowed outsourcing to flourish like this.
Ubik
12-30-2005, 10:08 AM
I like the idea of outsourcing my jobs to India and being the middleman / quality control. I've never tried it, but sounds nice.
Get a client, charge them x dollars, outsource it to India for 1/2 that, get the job back, re-do it, then give it to your client.
This would only work if the Indians have a little more than halfway decent code.
Ubik
12-30-2005, 10:14 AM
Or, another thing you could do it find out what your client wants, and then post it to the webdeveloper forums to have someone helpful do all of the programming for you, bit by bit, and just copy and paste the code you need and deliver to the client. Whee.
JPnyc
12-30-2005, 11:33 AM
The only solution is a grass roots one. For example, I've bought 2 Dell pcs in my life. The 1st lasted so long and ran so well that when I needed a new one, I went straight to them. However in the time since my 1st purchase, they'd changed quite a bit. They'd adopted some questionable practices concerning finance charges, and they'd moved all call centers offshore. I never got a single person on the phone for whom English was a 1st language. Not only that, but they gave me conflicting information
So my reaction is, that's the last item I ever buy from Dell. I can understand wanting to cut costs, but if you want to move all your call centers and customer support to another country, and a non-anglophonic one at that, market your products there. You ain't gettin' a dime outta me.
ray326
12-30-2005, 01:18 PM
I understand that outsourcing saves you cost , But I really believe the whole outsourcing thing and the H1B visa thing started due to shortage of skilled manpower rather than ONLY the cost factor. I sincerely believe that if majority of americans are affected by this H1B and outsourcing, the US GOVT would never have increased the H1B quota from time to time nor it would have allowed outsourcing to flourish like this.The US Government does what US big business wants and US big business wants cheap labor. Quality is not a factor; lack of skill in the workforce is not a factor; "shareholder value" is the only metric. The general experience has been that without significantly more project management and SQA staff on board, the offshore programmers will write code that satisfies the functional spec but that is almost totally unmaintainable when recovered when recovered from the offshore contractors. There are good programmers all over the world but you never get the full payback expected from the reduced labor cost of the individual programmer when you look at the end to end cost of the projects.
JPnyc
12-30-2005, 01:54 PM
That's why the solution has to be a grass roots one. If gov. won't do the right thing (did I really say IF?) then you take matters into your own hands.
MstrBob
12-30-2005, 02:51 PM
The only way I've found to get myself any job - now mind I don't do web development full time, I'm a full-time student - is to well, network. So a church wants to have a website online - standard information pages, plus an online calendar of events that non-techies can edit and a mailing list for one of their community groups. Now I landed it, though they were looking around at some other "professional" web developers (full time). Could they have done a better job than me? Maybe, I don't know. I didn't under-cut them on price, either though. But I met with them and was personable like and you have to make them feel like they are going to be in control and that it's all very simple and make them feel like they understand what's going on. No techie-babble, but let them have some idea of what you plan to do and all.
Buisnesses don't always go for the cheapest source, though it might seem like it. Some buisnesses actually will pay more for a developer that they like better, for whatever reason. Or if you were recommended through a contact, those are big ones, too. In web development, you know, these people have absolutely no idea what we're actually doing really, and when people don't know what's going on we tend to be a bit nervous. If someone they trust recommends you, or you can come in and ease their fears and make them feel like you are trustworthy, they'll pay that extra bit. Because a website for alot of buisnesses is a risk. It may be an advertising or sales expansion, but they need some sort of return to make it go alright. If it's messed up, they won't get a return. Buisnesses will pay a bit more for greater confindence in return - at least I've found.
JPnyc
12-30-2005, 03:44 PM
Pity you hadn't graduated yet, Bob. I could've gotten you a great gig in manhattan. I still dunno if they filled it yet.
NogDog
12-30-2005, 05:28 PM
I just want to see one law passed in the US: Every off-shore worker who works on an out-sourced contract for a US company must be paid at least the current US minimum hourly wage while working on that contract. If not, then the US company must pay twice the difference in penalties: half to pay for monitoring/enforcing this law and half to go into the US federal student loan program (and/or other higher education-oriented programs).
If off-shore sources can still provide a more cost-effective solution under those constraints, then more power to them and let them have the business.
poiuy
01-03-2006, 12:01 PM
I just want to see one law passed in the US: Every off-shore worker who works on an out-sourced contract for a US company must be paid at least the current US minimum hourly wage while working on that contract. If not, then the US company must pay twice the difference in penalties: half to pay for monitoring/enforcing this law and half to go into the US federal student loan program (and/or other higher education-oriented programs).
Hey great idea. We need to email the White House and State Captials because I think you are 100% right on. Unless you have a brick and mortor business based (with proof of residency) in India/Canada/Australia etc. you should have to conform to U.S. minimum wage laws.
If I was to work from my home or out of state doing what I do now they would have to pay me at least minimum wage. Just because my home could be in Bangladesh shouldn't matter. If the company is based in the U.S. it should follow U.S. laws. I love the idea NogDog. Will start an email campaign tonight.
This is an old thread but I still find it funny that a Canadian started it when it wasn't that long ago Americans were getting mad at companies working in Canada and Mexico to lower costs. Ross Perot - NAFTA
Corith
02-03-2006, 10:34 PM
I spent the last 10 years doing web development, and know ASP, C#, VBA, Javascript/DHTML, Photoshop, Actionscript, ColdFusion and SQL like the back of my hand. Yet, I after my last company went under, I've spent the last 18 months looking for permanent work. I've taken a few contract positions, but a less that my previous positions. It has been 6 months since I had any work, and out of desperation, I've had to take a job in QA for less than a third my previous salary ($30 an hour to $8.50). Yeah, tell me how much my B.S. in computer science is bringing me, and I really want to hear about their being such a lack of technical people that we need H-1B visas and outsourcing. Little wonder people don't want computer science degrees, its worth $8.50 an hour with no benefits.
ray326
02-04-2006, 12:20 PM
That's also an indication of the sad state of our software development processes in general, that a QA position is considered throw away. A good QA person is every bit as valuable as a Project Manager.
BuezaWebDev
02-04-2006, 07:00 PM
That's also an indication of the sad state of our software development processes in general, that a QA position is considered throw away. A good QA person is every bit as valuable as a Project Manager.
Yeah, but educated (B.Sc) QA people should be paid more than just $8.50/hr. I would say, ~$30/hr.
ray326
02-04-2006, 07:18 PM
Yeah, but educated (B.Sc) QA people should be paid more than just $8.50/hr. I would say, ~$30/hr.Yeah, that's my point. They should be paid as well as the rest of the team and you aren't going to get real programmers, analysts or project managers for 8 bucks an hour.
Mr Initial Man
02-06-2006, 09:27 AM
I honestly see a time when information technology education is considered a waste of time, and people will start looking to become tradepeople again. You can't outsource a mechanic.
JPnyc
02-06-2006, 09:42 AM
The power is in the hands of the indigenous population; the consumer. If you are bothered by this, don't patronize companies who outsource.
Corith
02-06-2006, 10:31 AM
I honestly see a time when information technology education is considered a waste of time . . .
Wake up and smell the coffee . . .That time is already here.
ray326
02-06-2006, 11:20 PM
True. CS and SE enrollments are dropping like the proverbial rock in the US.
Mr Initial Man
02-06-2006, 11:57 PM
In the words of a favorite webcomic of mine "does not bode well." I wonder what will happen to the computer industry in North America.
Corith
02-07-2006, 10:25 AM
In the words of a favorite webcomic of mine "does not bode well." I wonder what will happen to the computer industry in North America.
You must not work in the field then, or you would know the answer to that question. What computer industry in North America?
Mr Initial Man
02-07-2006, 04:38 PM
No I don't. I am being stupid and taking a IT course instead of being smart and learning carpentry.
Corith
02-07-2006, 04:45 PM
No I don't. I am being stupid and taking a IT course instead of being smart and learning carpentry.
Actually, yes.
You can't outsource carpentry, although you can "guest-worker" it. Try accounting, criminal justice, architecture, art, medical, law, real estate, or any type of management program.
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