Is this legal???

[Mausau2000]

I don't want to discuss illegal stuff but just want to know
is looking at the source code of spyware illegal???
I know if u look at the code of microsoft software it is
but if u look at the code of some thing illegal to find out how it works is it ??

[rch10007]

If you have the capability to read the source code of a program and it isn't compiled - then go for it! The company shouldn't put out open source programs if they don't want people looking - or more! If it's compiled - you can't read it!

[Mausau2000]

Cool!!!! :)
But...
A uncompiler is illegal isn't it.

[PeOfEo]

Hex editors are not illegal so I do not see how a decompiler would be really.

[Mausau2000]

Thanks. :)

[BeachSide]

Reverse engineering is illegal not decompiling a program.

[MstrBob]

Remember, though, that decompiling never gets you the true source.

[Mausau2000]

o well it still gives u a good idea of stuff.
By the what what is defined as reverce engernerring

[theuedimaster]

Reverse engineering would be going backwords (from compile to decompiled) figuring how it works, and then re-writing it.

[Sunny G]

I also have a question... Two in fact!

I have figured out how to take the audio out of a DVD movie. Take a two-sided audio cable, plug one end into microphone input and the other into headphone output. Open Sound recorder, hit record and play the part of the dvd movie you want to record. Is that illegal?

OK, question # two.
I used to watch a cartoon show in the early 90's (Project GeeKeR). Few people remember this cartoon show, so I looked it up online and found an unofficial site where you can download episodes. They were made from VCR recordings. Is downloading, and watching them illegal? (I hope not)

[whitecree]

Do you own the dvd in question? If so, 'fair use' most likely covers you as long as you are only copying those soundtracks for your own use.

As to the second, hoist the jolly roger, for you have joined the ranks of piracy.

[PhillMc]

I also have a question... Two in fact!

I have figured out how to take the audio out of a DVD movie. Take a two-sided audio cable, plug one end into microphone input and the other into headphone output. Open Sound recorder, hit record and play the part of the dvd movie you want to record. Is that illegal?

OK, question # two.
I used to watch a cartoon show in the early 90's (Project GeeKeR). Few people remember this cartoon show, so I looked it up online and found an unofficial site where you can download episodes. They were made from VCR recordings. Is downloading, and watching them illegal? (I hope not)

As far as legality goes, if you own the DVD in question, then you have the right to create/keep a back-up (falls under Preservation of Property in the Bill of Rights). If you don't own the DVD, then it is illegal; also, if have a backup of a DVD, then sell or give that DVD away, you are legally obligated to destroy the backup.

Hope that helps.

[Sunny G]

Uhm, I'm a pirate then! Argh.

I take the soundtracks out of DVD's, copy MP3's from our audio visual class computers, frequently copy music CDs and software for my friends and download 90's cartoons--but I don't sell anything pirated.
Rules were meant to be broken.
Savy?

[Mausau2000]

Anyhow
Can i look at the code but not steal the code.

[Sunny G]

I believe so, but this is coming from a pirate... (Just a little one) Savy?

[patrickj]

Yarr maite, welcome to the ranks, he make a fine pirate

[Mausau2000]

The ranks???

[PhillMc]

Anyhow
Can i look at the code but not steal the code.

Well, that's tricky...

Let's say your talking about a version of Windows. Obviously, it's code is Copyrighted but you just want to 'look' at it and not use it -- no problems there, BUT it's stated in the EULA (End User License Agreement) that you cannot decompile or disassemble anypart of the software to look at the code, and use of the software constitutes your agreement and you are legally bound to follow those terms. If you have a copy you didn't purchase and obtained by 'other' means, then that's piracy -- piracy can hold much stiffer legal penalties than copyright infringment...

Hope this is helpfull.

[Sunny G]

Yarr maite, welcome to the ranks, he make a fine pirateArgh, glad to be aboard! Lower the firewall and prepare to be boarded! (Kidding)


I'm just a little pirate. I ain't no pirate selling pirated music and dvd's. I pirate software and music for my friends to show how much I care--I'm willing to violate several international treaties and copyright laws as a symbol of friendship.:cool:
I'm sure that's what you meant by "the ranks" right? Different levels of illegalness that the pirate performs?
Here is what I think the scales could be:

1. Burn a few CD's here and there
2. Burn CD's/software for friends every now and then + previous level
3. Rip rented DVD's + previous levels
4. Rip all discs in sight and distrubite them online + previous levels (free)
5. Sell illegal music/movies online & be wanted by the government + previous levels

We just got a new DVD burner, so I plan on becoming a level 3. Not too bad--savy?

[Mausau2000]

I would be level 3 but i don't think we r allowed to discuss this in Webdevloper.com

[Mausau2000]

Well, that's tricky...

Let's say your talking about a version of Windows. Obviously, it's code is Copyrighted but you just want to 'look' at it and not use it -- no problems there, BUT it's stated in the EULA (End User License Agreement) that you cannot decompile or disassemble anypart of the software to look at the code, and use of the software constitutes your agreement and you are legally bound to follow those terms. If you have a copy you didn't purchase and obtained by 'other' means, then that's piracy -- piracy can hold much stiffer legal penalties than copyright infringment...

Hope this is helpfull.
Thanks
Looking at spyware... is that ok
and is the EULA legal on spyware???

[patrickj]

no, its just a pirate saying lol, but no I aint a pirate, Although would nice to be one(lol spent over $3000 on webdesign software :( )

[Mausau2000]

$3000 dollers what did u buy??

[PhillMc]

Thanks
Looking at spyware... is that ok
and is the EULA legal on spyware???

Well, your 'typical' spyware is really ad-ware; that is, a program that most average users would find 'nifty' but is designed to record internet surfing habits and send you commercial (spam) emails based on those habits. These types are programs are required to tell the user up-front, or have it in their EULA and yes, are perfectly legal (even though, imo, they shouldn't be). There will probably also be a mention of 'do not decompile/disassemble' in the EULA as well.

If you are referring to a program designed to obtain personal/indentifiable information about a person in-order to commit fraudulant acts, those programs are illegal, so as far as it's source goes, have at it. lol

[Sunny G]

We aren't allowed to speak of piracy on webdeveloper?
Bummer Bummer. Well, I shall not speak of it again. Savy?

[Mausau2000]

Savy???

[Sunny G]

Savy???
Surely you have seen the movie "Pirates of the Carribbean". That was the word Captain Jack Sparrow used alot. It means "understand?" or "ya got that?".

[Mausau2000]

yes just Savy sounds like .... some sort of green food stuf

[Sunny G]

Some sort of green food stuff? Actually it does...

[Mausau2000]

Yeh i know :)
By the way I talked 2 a friend and NZ is not resritceced by u.s laws therefore NZ'rs can leagaly reverce engernar (within reason)

[Sunny G]

reverce engernar?

Do you think you could try to spell that correctly or tell me what that is supposed to say because I can't read that...

[PhillMc]

reverce engernar?

Do you think you could try to spell that correctly or tell me what that is supposed to say because I can't read that...

I'm pretty sure that it's 'reverse engineer' meaning to take something and make it's opposite (or to the like) using it's foundation as a guide.

[Sunny G]

I see now... Lucky.

[Mausau2000]

Yes i am lucky...
and sunny g most people can read my wrriting y not u.

[Sunny G]

Yeah, I'm kinda special that way.

and sunny g most people can read my wrriting y not u.
Why did you use a Y instead of saying "and"? That's how you say "and" in Spanish.
You know spanish? I took two years of classes, so I know only a bit.

[Mausau2000]

I take Japanese and Y and U and WTF a easyer to write :)

[omnicity]

Why did you use a Y instead of saying "and"?

'Cos 'Y' is shorter than 'why' - though not by much!

[BeachSide]

The NZ bit about not being under the same rules as the US is only partly true...

Even though you are not excatly bound by the laws and regulations of the US your country is bound by international treaties and what not to respect the laws of another country.

This is why even though Microsoft is a US based company you are still expected to follow the copyright rules.

Btw there are international copyright laws you know?

As for the decompeling and/or reverse engineering of a piece of software, you can do whatever you want to any piece of software you want for educational purposes ;)

[Mausau2000]

Yeh NZ can't reverce engernar US stuff...
And i think i will look at the software for educational purposes :p

[Sunny G]

I can't read code. Just HTML...

[Mausau2000]

Stuff like visual basic is easy to read like 4 expample
Button1.visible = True
What whould that do???

[Sunny G]

Oh oh! I know! I know!

Button1.visible = True
That means button1 is supposed to be visible and the true part is just confirming it's visibility. Am I right?

[Mausau2000]

Yes congraslations :)
Visual Basic is very easy to pick up...
What about this
Button1.enabled = false

[omnicity]

Btw there are international copyright laws you know?



No, there aren't.

Many countries have deliberatly similar laws, and there is extradition to worry about in some cases, but only NZ law holds in NZ, as UK/EU law holds in UK. Many things that are considered criminal by a victim in one country may also be criminal in the country in which it was perpetrated, but there is no direct link.

Point Two: Copyright is a civil issue in most, if not all countries. It is therefore not a crime unless you get mixed up in 'organised crime' ie large scale. Copyright infringement itself is NOT illegal.
Immoral in most cases, though not quite as immoral as the record companies!

[Mausau2000]

Wahoo!!!

[Sunny G]

SWEET!

Button1.enabled = false
I guess that means that Button1 is present but not usable.

[Mausau2000]

Yes the button is greyed out... not able 2 be used
Programming is not as hard as most peolpe say it is :)
Dim A as interger
see if u can find this out :)

[Sunny G]

I don't know...

[Mausau2000]

It lets A be any number...
so if A=1
then A+A=2 simple algbra
u need it 4 prgrammung

[Sunny G]

I see!

[PhillMc]

Yes the button is greyed out... not able 2 be used
Programming is not as hard as most peolpe say it is :)
Dim A as interger
see if u can find this out :)

Actually, in that case, the button would not be visible at all; greyed out would be 'button1.enabled = false .

EDIT, sorry, misread, lol :o

However, the difficulty of coding (programming) depends on the language.. Coding a Windows or a Graphical app in C, C++, or C# would be much more difficult than Visual BASIC or BASIC.NET.

For example -- in VB/.net all you have to do for a Form (Window) to appear all you have to do is declare a new one and access the show or showdialog method. In C, C++ you have to request permission from the machine every single time you wish to draw or write something to the screen -- that can get pretty lengthy -- whew!

[Mausau2000]

If u master Visual Basic u can master C++ easer than if u don't

[omnicity]

Rubbish. Properly coded C++ has a very different structure from VB, whether well crafted or not.

[Sunny G]

Rubbish is a funny word.

[omnicity]

VB is lots of funny words lumped together in a funny way.

[Sunny G]

Yeah, but there are plenty of words that are funny alone.
Like, (Laughing hysterically) pickles, beans, olives, bread, kiwi, mango, and papayas.
All food.

[Mausau2000]

Rubbish. Properly coded C++ has a very different structure from VB, whether well crafted or not.
but if u learn any prggroming lanluage it is easryer to do any other languages.

[Mausau2000]

I love Bacthfiles quick 2 create and powerful....

[omnicity]

Yeah, batch files are well under-rated. Trouble is they are usually so quick to write that you don't learn anything, so it can be hard to figure out how to do the really clever stuff.

A lot of folk get taught Pascal as a first computer language. If you learn VB after that it will make it harder to learn C/C++/Java, certainly did for me anyway!

I think that Java is one of the best choices for a second language, (after Pascal or Fortran or COBOL or something) cos you have to get straight into proper classes, which neither C nor C++ requires.

[Mausau2000]

Batch files can be used 4 networking Deleting stupid files and increaseing ur productivity

[Juuitchan]

If it's spyware, go ahead and reverse engineer it. Why the hell would you respect the "legal rights" of its creators, when the entire reason for the damn thing is without a doubt immoral, harmful, and quite probably illegal?!

[Mausau2000]

Spyware should have no legal rights :)

[Sunny G]

Yeah! Death to Spyware!

[Mausau2000]

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!
There is more Spyware than Viruses on most PC's :(

[Sunny G]

Ouch...
I'm not a ghost anymore!!! Yipee!

[Mausau2000]

Ouch??

[Sunny G]

There is more Spyware than Viruses on most PC's :(
Ouch...

[Mausau2000]

I get it now..... ;)
I found a program that finds all stord passwords on a pc mag....
IT FOUND EVERY PASSWORD...... freaky...

[PhillMc]

I get it now..... ;)
I found a program that finds all stord passwords on a pc mag....
IT FOUND EVERY PASSWORD...... freaky...

That's why I don't use 'auto complete' or 'password manager'; since it's stored on the hd anyone can get it. I find it best to use one username and one password for everything you can -- this way you forget nothing and it's not stored for anyone to get.

Also, avoid using actual words as passwords; a dictionary brute force generator can nail passwords like these in seconds. If you prefer numeric passwords, try to make them longer than 7 digits, anything less and a brute force generator can guess the correct password anywhere between a matter of seconds to minutes.

[omnicity]

I understand your logic, but using one password for everything is a very bad idea - one interception, or site compromise and your whole life is ruined!
Similarly, using a purely numeric password is bad - there are only 10 digits, as compared to 26 Upper + 26 lower case letters + a varying number of 'special characters'. That makes 52 possibilities just for letters, against 10 for EACH character of your password, so a single character would take 5 times as long to crack, a two-char password would take 25 times as long to crack, 3-char = 125 times longer, etc
That makes a massive difference on a decent length password.

[PhillMc]

Using a password for every site you visit can be troublesome. Sure, the logic is sound, but how many people have trouble remembering a specific username and password for every specific site? They either write down the passwords and plaster them all over the monitor, or use some kind of auto complete of password manager to keep track of them. Using one, very strong password seems more logical that the above. I will admit, though, using one unencrypted login that's being sniffed and someone's got your password, but the odds are higher that your passwords are obtained if they're written down all over the place and if you use a password manager than this happening.

[omnicity]

Actually, I wasn't advocating one-per-site, rather a tiered approach:

Have one password for your PC login.
Have one password for sites you really trust, like online banking, NoChex etc.
Have one password for important stuff like email, eBay.
Have one password for chat sites, forums etc.

That should be about enough for most people, probably no more than two more categories for anyone. This strategy helps to limit the damage 'cos a bank is much more likely to be able to prevent a brute force attack than a chat site is.
Best practice is to use the initial letters of a phrase, like:
A Password That Is Easy To Remember -> APTIER, then play with the letters a little, like apt13R
This has the added advantage that you should be able to write down a hint, like the first half of the phrase, without giving away the entire password.

[Mausau2000]

when i have 2 login on a PC with spyware i sometimes put a ',:. or something like at after the password i have so the Bot's can't pick it up....
Netscape is stupid as the Version 8 automaticly remembers stuff

[omnicity]

i sometimes put a ',:. or something like at after the password i have so the Bot's can't pick it up....

I don't understand this - do you mean that you use special chars within your password, or do you mean you do something strange when you log on?

[Mausau2000]

Special characters.
I can remember them not more letters thou

I tend to use 1 password as put a prefex or suffix on it like

Password then gmil or Webdev then my password
stuff like that

[omnicity]

Good thinking BatMan!
I imagine that can be awkward though when things demand exactly six characters for the password, and stuff like that.

[Mausau2000]

Pages that force u to have exacly an amount of letters in ur password r stupid. i usslay complain 2 the admin.

[Mausau2000]

Another Question 4 "IS THIS LEGAL THREAD"

Is..
Are pyimid Schemes legal??? and what is the definition of one?

[omnicity]

In many countries Pyramid schemes are illegal.
These days many people try to get around this by adjusting the scheme so that it does not quite fit the legal definition, in that country. Of course on the Internet, what is borderline in one country will be fully legal in another, and illegal in a third.

However, if you are thinking of setting one up, then remember Al Capone: there may be other laws that can be made to apply!

[Mausau2000]

Do u know what countrys

[DS_4_life]

In the times we live in now, with terrorism and things like that, do you really think someone will care if you burn a couple of CD's at home? Do you think the FBI will storm your house just to bust you for some illeagely downloaded music?

As for pyramid schemes, how can they be defined as pyramid schemes?

[Mausau2000]

U r not aloud 2 promote illegal things... Just discuss them.
Does anyone know anything about what contry's pyimad schems (scams) are illegal in?

[daed17]

I don't think there isn't a programmer out there that has not learned from looking at others code. It isn't the fact that you look at the code but how you implement it once you learn it.

As a programmer, you should be able to understand what you are being shown and think of new ways to use it and improve it.

[Mausau2000]

Yes...
It is nearly impossable 2 learn programming without looking at other's codes

[omnicity]

Did you learn Maths by poring over some private accounts ledger, or did your teacher write carefully chosen lessons for you?

I primarily learnt to program from various free tutorials - no copyright was violated (to my knowledge).

[Mausau2000]

The private accounts ledger option :)