What do you build with?

[Maximus Prime]

I'm using MS Front Page, mostly because I am teaching myself and it seems pretty idiot proof. But while the contorls are pretty famiilar now I am noticing that I either am not using it as well as I can or I don't have as much control as I would like and probably need to move up a notch in programs.

Another question? Withusing CSS, is it something you have to be able to write the code/script for as opposed to html where you have the GUI to make the changes while the HTML is written in thebackground?

Thanks all

[Tim158]

Hi,

You will never have full control over the way a web page looks by using a WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) editor like FrontPage. If you are really interested in learning how to write professional web pages, use a simple text editor and learn the code by hand.

Dreamweaver is probably a better option than MS FrontPage if you want to stick to WYSIWYG.

If a WYSIWYG editor had a button for every HTML element and CSS attribute, your screen would be filled completely with buttons in which case you could write the code faster than it would take to find the button on the screen.

Ask yourself this:
Am I learning how to create web pages? or am I learning how a program works by pushing buttons?

-Tim

[Daria]

In my limited experience Dreamweaver is a much, much better way for a self-starter (myself included).
I used DW2, then 3, now 4 (for reason's unclear to myself I like DW3 better0.

Front Page leaves a lot of room for design glitches. Run for your life! :)

I used DW and experimented by "butting into" the code manually.

[spufi]

I use Editplus v2.11. It has buttons for creating tags and I even changed them over to code for XHTML, but I still hard code it myself. I like the idea that if it's in there, I put it there. It also has line numbers, and word wrap as defaults. Works with mulitple file types and has some of, if no the best color coding I've seen.

And yes, Front Page and Dreamweaver, which I own and my copy collects dust, don't handle CSS in the way that one would hope. At least not for me.

[starrwriter]

Best WYSIWYG editor for price, power and ease of use is Namo WebEditor (http://www.namo.com). You can draw tables, add javascript rollovers, popup windows and DHTML animations without having to write the code by hand. Also writes very clean code.

[khaki]

if you can't hard-code a table...
or an image tag...
or non-redundant font tags...
without the use of a WYSIWYG editor...
then you are what you are.

nothing else needs to be said.

:rolleyes: k

[Jona]

Hmm... well, I'm kinda on both sides of this. I use Windows Notepad for all of my Web page building, JavaScript programming, PHP programming, etc. And I only get to dream about WYSIWYG editors like FrontPage and Dreamweaver. Maybe one day I'll decide to get it.. Until then I'll remain a One-Line Hard-Coder. :p

[web-eagle]

Started out with HotDog.
Switched to FrontPage.
Then switched to DreamWeaver.
Never looked back.
And never took flack from "hard core coders”.

I just finished a StarTrek novel that mentioned Klingons not approving of modern medicine, because a warrior’s battle damage tells something about his honor.

There is a certain amount of ego involved when somebody rags you about a tool. But when I look at the difference between hard coding, say, a table, versus clicking a button and entering two numbers, I gotta go with the quick and easy. Might as well give up the CTRL-C – CTRL-V sequence. No more copying and pasting. Just type it all over again, and again, and again, and…

But they are right about needing to know how to code. No WYSIWYG editor codes exactly the way you want it to. You WILL have to tweak, and that boils down to Notepad and a good eye.

[starrwriter]

Originally posted by khaki
if you can't hard-code a table...
or an image tag...
or non-redundant font tags...
without the use of a WYSIWYG editor...
then you are what you are.

nothing else needs to be said.

:rolleyes: k

You're breaking my heart, sweetie. Can hand code anything. Choose not to cuz WYSIWYG saves time. Get it?

[khaki]

oh.... I'm not trying to break any hearts :( ...

my previous post may have been quick and to the point... but let me expound (just a little)...

My company once hired a so-called "experienced" web developer to do content and GUI. After 2 minutes on the job, he confessed that he only knew how to write pages using Dreamweaver (we are a Visual InterDev shop).

We showed him that InterDev has WYSIWYG ability, but his learning curve proved slow and unproductive. Even afterwards, his "code" was bloated and excruciatingly difficult to de-bug. We finally had to buy Dreamweaver just for him so that we could get some work out of him... PLUS we had to send him to a basic HTML class so that he could learn how to clean his own bloated and redundant code.

At my old job, we had a guy who advertised himself as a wed developer... but what he used was Fireworks and Dreamweaver to create huge graphic images that would be "sliced" and contain hotspots for navigation and javascript events. His pages where HUGE, slow, and completely un-usable on a professional level.
And... since he couldn't hard-code... he was transferred to Customer Service and answered phones instead.

What do these 2 people have in common?
WYSIWYG... and no skills to hard-code (or even any knowledge about the basic language of HTML).

I'm not saying that WYSIWYG can't or shouldn't be used.... but if it is all that you use... then "you are what you are".

Unfortunately too many people have success making pages using only WYSIWYG.. and they confuse themselves with the actual professionals who know that it requires an understanding of the languages to do this stuff professionally.
And I realize that some people don't have aspirations of becoming professional web developers... and that's fine. But once again... "you are what you are" ... so you should never allow a WYSIWYG editor to delude you into thinking otherwise.

And remember... FrontPage, Dreamweaver, Visual InterDev (and most all web editors) have a "code" view as well as the WYSIWYG view.
There is no excuse to not learn to stop relying on the WYSIWYG part only.

That's all that I'm saying.
If I've still broken some hearts... I really didn't mean to (actually i'm really just trying to help :( )

;) k

[DaveSW]

I started coding in November using a wysiwyg editor called Hotmetal Pro. I worked out in the first day of using it that the graphical 'Tags On' view (grey tags before each element) was the best way to get the document nicely structured.

I found it very easy to learn, but i quickly discovered the automatic rollover creator was rather slow on normal modems to load the images. So I switched to CSS, to do which I had to hardcode. Now, my site pages average around 1 to 3kb, wheras so many others I see average 12. My download times with Netmechanic almost invariably get 5 stars. Which is nice!!

Because I build on a separate machine to the one with internet access, all modifications to the pages are made in Notepad.

I think starting on a WYSIWYG editor was important, because you only have to click one button from the source view to see your changes instantly. This gives you more encouragement tto modify the source. But using pure wysiwyg view is a sin, and should be punished accordingly :D !!

LOL

Dave

[Maximus Prime]

I've been to a job fair type seminar where employers came in an people had the chance to ask what they looked for. When it came to Web evelopers none of them said, "As long as youcan hard code we don't care what other skills you have." Come to thin of it they never even mentioned hard coding. Dreamweaver, cold fusion, java, flash... these are what a lot of them were looking for. Yes, they mentioned HTML but it wasn't like they were tyring ot choke people with it and tha being the strongest attribute they look for. Granted these are also large companies who do a alot of civilian/government contracts, as opposed to the towns local web design shop.

Now if you don't mind I'm going to go milk the cow, churn the butter, cut and grind the wheat in the fields, collect the eggs and make myself breakfast... Then I think I'll go down to the local mine and get soem ore so I can melt it down and forge myself a bicycle frame... or maybe chop a few tress down, mill the wood, kill a couple elephants and build myself a piano to play... Then maybe I'll go down to the local grade school and insult some children for not being able to solve some quantum physicis equations. They are so dumb you know.

I agree with some of what one person said, WYSIWYG is a shortcut for a lot of things. And for a beginner it is a nice way to start. I frequently shift between the views (normal,preview, html) so I can see what is going on behind the scenes and learn how to do the same thing without the GUI. I'm using geocities for god's sake, I am obviously not a high level Web Developer at this point... just a tinkerer who had a few quetions.

Breaking my heart? No.. I have pretty thick skin. Almost as thick as my head which is why I'm not a "hard coder" YET. Are some of those opinions of Web Developers being egotists solidifying... oh yeah. Not everyone but I can think of at least one.


Originally posted by khaki
oh.... I'm not trying to break any hearts :( ...

my previous post may have been quick and to the point... but let me expound (just a little)...

My company once hired a so-called "experienced" web developer to do content and GUI. After 2 minutes on the job, he confessed that he only knew how to write pages using Dreamweaver (we are a Visual InterDev shop).

We showed him that InterDev has WYSIWYG ability, but his learning curve proved slow and unproductive. Even afterwards, his "code" was bloated and excruciatingly difficult to de-bug. We finally had to buy Dreamweaver just for him so that we could get some work out of him... PLUS we had to send him to a basic HTML class so that he could learn how to clean his own bloated and redundant code.

At my old job, we had a guy who advertised himself as a wed developer... but what he used was Fireworks and Dreamweaver to create huge graphic images that would be "sliced" and contain hotspots for navigation and javascript events. His pages where HUGE, slow, and completely un-usable on a professional level.
And... since he couldn't hard-code... he was transferred to Customer Service and answered phones instead.

What do these 2 people have in common?
WYSIWYG... and no skills to hard-code (or even any knowledge about the basic language of HTML).

I'm not saying that WYSIWYG can't or shouldn't be used.... but if it is all that you use... then "you are what you are".

Unfortunately too many people have success making pages using only WYSIWYG.. and they confuse themselves with the actual professionals who know that it requires an understanding of the languages to do this stuff professionally.
And I realize that some people don't have aspirations of becoming professional web developers... and that's fine. But once again... "you are what you are" ... so you should never allow a WYSIWYG editor to delude you into thinking otherwise.

And remember... FrontPage, Dreamweaver, Visual InterDev (and most all web editors) have a "code" view as well as the WYSIWYG view.
There is no excuse to not learn to stop relying on the WYSIWYG part only.

That's all that I'm saying.
If I've still broken some hearts... I really didn't mean to (actually i'm really just trying to help :( )

;) k

[Chopper WeeD]

Im a newbie and have only used Frontpage XP. Plan to look into Dreamweaver MX and hopefully learn code in the long run.

I have tinkered with code in textpad 4.0 (better than notepad) to make alterations, e.g. Using sample code from tutorials and altering them to suit my need.

I believe that to be a real profesional web developer, you need to be able to hard code.
But I also do believe that it is also handy to be able to use a WYSIWYG.
Many short-cuts can be taken by using a WYSIWYG.

I do not web develop as a job, but simply do it as a hobby.
Hence, I dont care how my page is done. Aslong as it looks, feels and works good for me.

my Web pages i have constructed:
Bookmarks (http://users.bigpond.net.au/chopperweed/) still in construction.
Local Club Tipping Comp (http://users.bigpond.net.au/chopperweed/footytips/) doesnt get viewed often.

My sites have 2 attributes hated by general web developers.
Which are frames and graphics (speeking about quantity) But I like it :D


P.S. I think Khaki is cool, smart and Helpful (and funny at times) ;)

[khaki]

ok...
i don't think that i understand everything here anymore... :confused:
maybe i should back-up a bit :rolleyes:

first of all... my apologies to Maximus.
He asked a question... and the answer that he got from me was probably directed at about a half-dozen other people in these forums who have made a point of announcing that WYSIWYG has resulted in the "demise of dinosuar hard-coders".

I admit that this is one of my "button" issues ... and i get hyper-sensitive to anything that comes anywhere close to pressing it.
I apologize if my response was more "statement" than "helpful advice".

and as someone who hard-codes her pages AND can use WYSIWYG if I wanted to...
i feel that i can speak intelligently - and from experience - about the topic (unlike those who can't hard-code... who can only speak from one side of the topic).

so anyway...
in the interest of providing only information (and not attitude), I would like to respond in a knowledgable way to one of the statments that Maximus has addressed:

"I've been to a job fair type seminar where employers came in an people had the chance to ask what they looked for. When it came to Web evelopers none of them said, "As long as youcan hard code we don't care what other skills you have." Come to thin of it they never even mentioned hard coding. Dreamweaver, cold fusion, java, flash... these are what a lot of them were looking for."

There is one point to consider when an employer is looking for skills in certain applications.... and especially Dreamweaver.

Any employer who is looking to have web pages created doesn't really care how they are made (since Dreamweaver is not essential for making web pages)... but what they do care about is whether you can work in the Dreamweaver environment... which is the PROJECT and SERVER-SIDE aspect of Dreamweaver. Because Dreamweaver "by itself" can only make pages.

But when used professionally by a business, it is connected to a server... and to other developers who share files, projects, and different elements to the site.
It's that "experience" of working within the existing project/team aspect of Dreamweaver that they are looking for. Business experience with Dreamweaver.... not just the ability to write web pages with it.

Therefore... when it comes to "the towns local web design shop"...
They may actually have Dreamweaver loaded onto the PCs that the employees can use. But since a web page can be made using simply Notepad... I doubt that they would require that all of the employees know and use Dreamweaver in order to work there. So that is a very different situation completely.

Hopefully I explained that well :rolleyes: .

but ultimately... i guess it depends on the type of job. I work in the corporate world. A lot of pre-requisites are required for that type of work. Hard-coding is absolutely essential... since WYSIWYG is limited in it's scope.
A web developer needs to incorporate javascript, ASP, database connectivity, and stuff like that. You need to be comfortable playing inside of the code to do these things.
That's all I'm saying :rolleyes: .
okay :confused:

I'm not too sure what your second paragraph was intending to say... but I'll assume it was somehow a shot at me... and I'll accept that, i suppose :(

did i do a better job of explaining myself?
:confused: k

[IxxI]

Well, to throw in my opinion...
I started learning HTML, javascript etc. in January this year (when I joined this forum), and having used notepad slightly I transfered to Hotdog. I've never used a wysiwyg editor, mainly because of the fact that I like to be in charge of what I do. I know that if I've coded something, and want to make a slight change, either for aethetics, or for use in another project, I feel confident that I can take my code and manipulate it to suit, whereas if I only knew how to use wysiwyg editors I'd have to go about it a far longer way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad to use wysiwyg editors, but I think its bad for newbies to use wysiwyg editors, as I feel its important to have an understanding of what you are doing before you do it. Not that everyone will agree with me mind...
Oh, and I have to agree with Choppers description of Khaki.

IxxI

[khaki]

i love you guys!
(you've turned my smile back in the right direction :) )
;) k

[web-eagle]

Rats! I’m hoping I didn’t start this division, but looking back over the past posts, I think I may have started a mess. So I apologize to khaki and every other professional web developer in this thread. You guys do this for a living. I just make a few bucks from the local businesses and churches.

First and foremost, IM(ns)HO, if you can’t hard code, you’re not a web developer. Almost anybody can get MS Word to create a web page. My intended point was simply that I’d use whatever tools make it simplest. Kind of like letting kids use calculators in school, you hope they can still do arithmetic.

Maybe the ego comment was a shot, and it was an unfair one. I come from an age where people who programmed in BASIC were put down by people who programmed in Pascal. I guess old wars never die. I’ve had one of my DOS Batch files published in a national magazine, and let me tell you, I was Proud!

So to khaki especially, and everyone else in the business, you rock!

[Maximus Prime]

You didn't start any mes that I can tell.

In a way I suppose the "ego" is somewhat earned. Anyone who knows their job inside and out has the right to have an ego. Whether they project it or not is what distinguishes the people who are happy with themselves from the jerks who have to use what they have to belittle others in order to validate feeling good about themselves. If people didn't have a little ego they wouldn't be American.

I woudl say there is a huge difference between using MS Word and MS FP for building a page. And as far as the web developer "name tag" goes... well, what akes the determination: If you have the overall skills (jack of all trades) or if you get paid for doing it? A person could be a low level, WYSIWYG user who does his company's web site or intranet set. Wouldn't that make him a web developer? Carefu because the answer to this question could place you in the jerk catagory...

Since it seems most people are selftaught, it's not like they can throw down the "If you don't have a degree you are technically not a web developer" flag.

Does that mean that if you compare the guys who made pong to the guys who make Unreal... the guys who made pong are not gamer developers.

I digress.

BTW... I like your quote.

TTYL

~MP~

Originally posted by web-eagle
Rats! I’m hoping I didn’t start this division, but looking back over the past posts, I think I may have started a mess. So I apologize to khaki and every other professional web developer in this thread. You guys do this for a living. I just make a few bucks from the local businesses and churches.

First and foremost, IM(ns)HO, if you can’t hard code, you’re not a web developer. Almost anybody can get MS Word to create a web page. My intended point was simply that I’d use whatever tools make it simplest. Kind of like letting kids use calculators in school, you hope they can still do arithmetic.

Maybe the ego comment was a shot, and it was an unfair one. I come from an age where people who programmed in BASIC were put down by people who programmed in Pascal. I guess old wars never die. I’ve had one of my DOS Batch files published in a national magazine, and let me tell you, I was Proud!

So to khaki especially, and everyone else in the business, you rock! :D

[IxxI]

Originally posted by Maximus Prime
If people didn't have a little ego they wouldn't be American.


I'm not!!

IxxI

[khaki]

Maximus wrote: Whether they project it or not is what distinguishes the people who are happy with themselves from the jerks who have to use what they have to belittle others in order to validate feeling good about themselves.grrrr....
Well... I'm not going to get into any name-calling... but I will point-out that I have already qualified my previous statements by explaining that there have been some derogatory statements made against hard-coders in these forums... and therefore I am sensitive about it.

And if you want to think that I am a jerk for any reason... fine.
That's your business... I'll just note that and be done with it.

But... I really must share one of my least favorite quotes from these forums... just to provide a frame of reference for those of you who think that WYSIWYG's are just innocent little victims in a world of big-meaney hard-coders:starrwriter wrote on 03-14-2003 : Horse****. In the forseeable future, when WYSIWYG editors are improved, all professional websites will be designed with WYSIWYG editors. And then hand-coders like you will become as extinct as dinosaurs. Adapt or perish.So you see... no one likes to be made to feel foolish or stupid or insulted..
And I for one have not insulted or name-called anyone here.
I offered my opinion only! If you disagree with that opinion... fine.
But to name-call because you disagree with that opinion is just rude!
:( k

[web-eagle]

It may happen as starwriter has suggested, but that doesn’t mean the situation will improve. If programming (as opposed to markup) is any indication, things will be far worse. Back in the 80’s (OMG, I started to sound like my parents and their parents before them and…..”Back when I was a boy, we had to carve our own ICs out of wood!”) <brain burp – excuse me>

Anyway, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, people actually wrote computer code by hand. I was actually pretty good at it myself. But as corporations began developing software they learned to use programs to create other programs. It was probably necessary, since the scope of computerdom was growing at such a pace. But the end result is now that there aren’t very many humans who actually KNOW what their software is doing (one of the main reasons Microsoft hasn’t had a working product since DOS 2, they just keep repackaging their bug fixes).

Yeah, I can foresee WYSIWYG programs becoming better and better, and I can also see the glut of unnecessary, redundant, and even counterproductive markup growing at an unstoppable pace.

Well, gotta run, but will check back later. My daughter’s getting married today at 2pm. I think I was supposed to do something or other..…I forget.....

[khaki]

Since I lack a crystal-ball that shows the future... I elect to live in the present with an eye towards the future.
That being said... I learn and use the skills and technologies that puts a roof over my head and food in my mouth.

I can't sleep comfortably or sustain my body solely on ideals and speculation.
This is not a hobby for me... it is my career.

But... even with no crystal-ball to assist me... I can make one prediction as to what the future will bring:

Tomorrow... I will recieve additional funds (directly deposited) into my bank account from my employer.
(happens every 15th & 30th. it's like magic, i guess! :) )
All of this hard-coding hasn't hurt me yet... but it has helped me quite a bit.
So... scoff if you want...
I can probably make another prediction of the 29th of the month too :).
And that's all that really matters to me.
To each her/his own.
;) k

***
By the way... I own Dreamweaver4... and it considers CSS to be an error on the page. I don't know if later versions corrected that (i'd like to find out)... but I do know that CSS is now.
So if WYSIWYG is not coding CSS... it may not be able to be part of the future... since it can't even keep up with the present.

AND CONGRATULATIONS TO YOUR DAUGHTER AND THE REST OF THE FAMILY!!!

[IxxI]

Khaki, we're missing your input in the rwp section...

IxxI

[khaki]

yeah... i guess that i've gotten myself all distracted xx :rolleyes:

and i've been dreading the idea of trying to catch-up (68 posts?! 3 pages?!).

but i'll be sure to head over there sometime after lunch (it's 1pm here now)...

see you there...
:) k

[lora_3677]

Ok, looks like the discussion is pretty much over.. but thought I would tell you what I use...
Originally I was a notepad girl. did all my pages in it and at times, I think I should go back... especially when my WYSIWIG is wigging!! ha ha.
But, I have Dreamweaver MX and as far as I can tell it picks up mose of the CSS, unless I'm stupid and made an error and forgot to code something in my CSS.. hee hee.

the editor's are great for faster design, they do allow you to get pages done quicker, but they also put a lot of 'extra' code and tags that are not necessary and just bulk up your pages. Normally after I get the page done, I go back into the code and manually take out all the extra junk...

that's my 2 cents worth.

[Maximus Prime]

That last post I made was not directed at anyone one person... just a blaket statement. It certainly was not directed at you Khaki, as you have proven to me that despite having a few buttons that can be pushed you're input is valuable and you are proud of what you are capable of doing. No offense meant by anything I have said... and if I did offend anyone then I apologize.

Peace

MP

Originally posted by khaki
yeah... i guess that i've gotten myself all distracted xx :rolleyes:

and i've been dreading the idea of trying to catch-up (68 posts?! 3 pages?!).

but i'll be sure to head over there sometime after lunch (it's 1pm here now)...

see you there...
:) k

[Albatross]

Simple. I enter everything by hand.

[Jona]

This post is now totally over my head... Adios, people! :p

[JackTheTripper]

I started by buying HTML for Dummies. LOL Can you believe it? That was mid 1999. Now I'm a Web Master/Designer for a mid-sized company. Tought myself how to code HTML, CSS and Javascript mostly from www.webmonkey.com and a couple books. Also taught myself to use Photoshop, Illustrator and DreamWeaver by trial and error. I took a class in basic Web design in 2001 but realized they were not teaching me much I didn't already know. HTML by itself is very easy. So I took a client side scripting class. Learned a little about Java, a little vbscript (a very little), and it was mostly focused on JavaScript. But once again, just from running through the webmonkey JavaScript tutoriasl I knew most everything they taught me. And I taught them a little about DHTML. LOL Then I took a PhotoShop class. Didn't learn much their either, except that I could get a night-time job a the local community college teaching PhotoShop if I wanted to.

At work I use DreamWeaver only because of it's template feature but I spend most of my time in the code window.

[Maximus Prime]

Originally posted by JackTheTripper
I started by buying HTML for Dummies. LOL Can you believe it? That was mid 1999. Now I'm a Web Master/Designer for a mid-sized company. Tought myself how to code HTML, CSS and Javascript mostly from www.webmonkey.com and a couple books. Also taught myself to use Photoshop, Illustrator and DreamWeaver by trial and error. I took a class in basic Web design in 2001 but realized they were not teaching me much I didn't already know. HTML by itself is very easy. So I took a client side scripting class. Learned a little about Java, a little vbscript (a very little), and it was mostly focused on JavaScript. But once again, just from running through the webmonkey JavaScript tutoriasl I knew most everything they taught me. And I taught them a little about DHTML. LOL Then I took a PhotoShop class. Didn't learn much their either, except that I could get a night-time job a the local community college teaching PhotoShop if I wanted to.

At work I use DreamWeaver only because of it's template feature but I spend most of my time in the code window.

Now I know it can't be learned in a day and my fuze for patience is short and attached to a huge bomb... (kinda ripped that off from Dennis Miller)

I have been goofing around in code all day tryiing to teach myself a litt.e I learned a very little... but the thing that pushes my buttons is not seeing the lines and being abkle to position things myself... I guesss I am ruined by WYSIWYG. Granted part of the problem I was having today was getting a drop down menu thing to fit into a table correctly and I can't really do it the way I want... I am trying to avoid using Front page because it'll probably just muck the code up and it will also get me madder because it does some weird things to simple code (as I have been noticing now)

I'll have to try Webmonkey... I have been using w3 schools all day...

[WinterGhost]

On my way to conquering the world... I am currently using the following programs to develop...

PHP + Text Editor: PHPIde (from phpide.de )
Imaging Program: Adobe Photoshop, The Gimp
Other Resources: MySql, Apache, PHPmyadmin.

Running: Windows98se, 64mb ram, p3 566. Fresh installation, updated drivers, nothing in add/remove *cackles*. Good enough.

Anyways thats what I use :)

[JackTheTripper]

Originally posted by Maximus Prime


I'll have to try Webmonkey... I have been using w3 schools all day...

Those W3 things are impossible to read. Webmonkey makes the basics easy to understand with fun, cute little examples. I still often times forget things I don't use often so I hit them and just quick search through the menus on the left to find what I'm looking for, like for loops, or arrays, or whatever.

Start with this one...

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/programming/javascript/tutorials/tutorial1.html


Then this one....

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/programming/javascript/tutorials/tutorial2.html


That's really the basics. Then you can start combining what you've learned together.

If you really need more pick up a book on JS.


Sorry, I didn't post these links earlier because I was lazy and didn't think anyone would be interested. These are very good tutorials, really. I don't work there or anything, that's just where I got my first tast of JS. Really, I can't say enought good things about these tutorials. Great for beginers.

Good luck. :cool:

[DaiWelsh]

I use Coldfusion Studio or M$ Visual Studio for most editing, though I do use DW on occasion, mostly to ensure what I do is maintainable by other people using DW.

As with most things in life , I think the truth of this debate lies in the fuzzy middle ground.

WYSIWYG is fine for some people, just as I never lift the bonnet (that is the hood for the Yanks) of my car unless absolutely necessary. However it is not suitable for some people, mostly professional web developers, who cannot or should not tolerate the crap that it inevitably adds to code (I would not take my car to a garage if the mechanic didn't lift the bonnet either!).

If you run a light load site that needs to hit 80% of its visitors reasonably effectively then you should be fine with a 'driver'. If you have a heavy load site that needs to be optimised and/or a site that needs to be available to 99.9% of visitors, load fast on poor links, etc. then you may need to call in a 'mechanic'. :cool:

In favour of WYSIWYG (well DW specifically) it seems that the code has improved considerably recently compared to some of the downright hair-tearing code I had to take over a few years ago, but on the flip side think the move into DW-built applications may be a backward step.

As for the quote

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------starrwriter wrote on 03-14-2003 : Horse****. In the forseeable future, when WYSIWYG editors are improved, all professional websites will be designed with WYSIWYG editors. And then hand-coders like you will become as extinct as dinosaurs. Adapt or perish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You appear not to have been in the IT industry for long if at all, or you would know that Horse**** is in fact what has been peddled by numerous companies trying to convince everyone that so called 4GLs (and now in web-land WYSIWYGs) would remove completely the need for any developers (or that new OS would remove the need for tech support :rolleyes: ). In practice it was the 4GLs that from "Adapt or perish" ended up doing the latter. Does anyone here program in Cool:Gen? No I thought not, yet 5 years ago when I worked for a large IT company it was going to be the tool of choice for everyone and we all were forced to go on training courses in it and use it for all new development projects. The company in question went bust a couple of years later - nuff said?

For those to whom this makes any sense - we were aiming to rewrite an antiquated DOS/mainframe based mail system as a snazzy new client-server application and despite our resistance we were told this would be built with cool:gen so our team was assigned our own cool:gen expert and we all sat down to design the new system. After following his procedures to the letter we ended up with a system that had only one message store. We told him this could not be right as there would clearly need to be a store for mail on the local machine(s) and another on the server which forwarded the mail. However we were told that since the entities we were describing were identical in functionality (duh - both were mail stores) there should be only one entity as far as cool:gen was concerned and it did not need to know what machine this store would be located on. At this point all the experienced developers left the room to apply for new positions and surprisingly the product never got off the drawing board.

The moral of this story is that there is a place for automated tools and operators with high level knowledge only, but dont think you wont still need plenty of old-school coders to make the 'non-standard' (i.e. many to most) things work.

:P

Dai

[netman182]

I first Started With NOTEPAD Back in the Day of HTML 1.0
Then I switched to FP....
Then to GOLIVE
Then Back to Notepad
but Now have gone becak to the WYSIWIG with DreamWeaver MX. I love it. I can Hard Code and do the WYSIWIG Stuff all at the smae time. It's Cool. I just needed to save time your Hard Coders......

Peace... Changing the web since who knows when... early 90's??? Yah... Those were the days.... :cool:

[havik]

I started out by simply using notepad and did so until this January where I now use coldfusion studio, it's a lot easier. funny thing is I never touched a wysiwyg editor and don't plan on it in the future. I don't have anything against it or its users, its just that I never had real access to them.

But my job here ends at the end of the month. I'm a student in a work placement program, so that's why I'll only have worked 4 months. When I go I'm thinking about getting some web development software, but I think I'll still be fine with notepad. My priority is on getting flash and photoshop, but being a student I might only be able to afford one.

Havik

[Jona]

Just thought I'd say I got a text editor... Well, it's just like notepad with no syntax highlighting, but it does who the line number, have a find/replace function, and has a goto line function. That's basically all I need. Now I can go through 200 lines of code and find an error, without having to count each line as I go....

[toicontien]

I've read about two thirds of the posts and expected the debate about WYSIWYG editors vs. Hard Coders. Great stuff for an idealistic discussion, but web developers who work for larger companies live in a world of constant deadlines. The point is, people will use whatever is quickest, because time is money.

But if it takes too long for a page to download because of a lot of extra code, that time is money too. Here's the solution that I've been working with for a while.

I hard code the templates for the pages. Then I open them in Dreamweaver and even (gulp) Netscape Composer (or Mozilla for us rebels...). Then I use the GUI editors like a web page word processor. It makes entering images and text really easy.

Both Dreamweaver and Composer (7.0 and newer) have excellent support for specifying styles in CSS. I found out that Composer for Mozilla 1.0 and NS 7.0 even support a GUI XHTML design. Composer actually reads the CSS files imported via the @import method inside the STYLE tags and via the LINK tag and renders the page like you would see it in the browser.

In a perfect world, I'd hard code all the way. I'm also anal retentive ;)

Finally, to get to the original question: I've used Max's HTML Beautry ++ ME http://www.max.co.yu/htmlbeauty/ and have just recently gotten into HTML Kit http://www.chami.com/html-kit/

Both offer syntax highlighting, internal previews and keyboard macros so you can hit Ctrl + Alt + A to insert a beginning and closing anchor tag set, just for an example. I like HTML Kit more now, but there is a use for both editors. HTML Beauty has many auto tag builders like Dreamweaver.

For example, hitting the Ctrl + Shift + T keys brings up the aforementioned table wizard. It's just as quick to create tables in HTML Beauty as it is in DW.

You could also try Arachnophilia, which is now a Java application that runs on the Java Virtual Machine. Cool if you've got Linux I guess.

OK. I'm done.

[KevGymnast]

As for my personal choice I really like DWMX, and in my oppinion anyone who says notepad is better is only saying that to sound 'hard core'. sure DW can lead to sloppy code, but if you check through it and use it properly you can prevent the slop. you just have to care a little bit.
I think using DW is fine, for small time web designers, or for pros. it just depends on how you use the program. for example, if you had to cut down a huge tree, would you choose a little hand saw or would you choose a chainsaw? most would choose the chainsaw, why? because it's faster and takes a little less effort yet still gets the job done quite nicely. it does this because it has more power then the little hand saw. but that great power can be used for good (to cut down the tree with a nice straigh line) or for bad (to not care at all and just whack away resulting in a messy cut). but so long as you're careful you should be able to cut down the tree with a nice neat cut, and in half the time too :D

as for other aspects of designing, i use Adobe photoshop, macromedia fireworksMX, blender3d, newtek LightWave, and even M$ paint every once in a while.

[khaki]

Well just for the record:

I code in Visual InterDev.
Why?
Because it's powerful (more powerful than a chain-saw!).

I don't use the WYSIWYG aspect of Visual InterDev because I don't need to (but I always could if I chose to).

Yes... Visual InterDev has a "toolbox" that creates tags (so that I don't have to write them myself)... and that can help save time.

But the bottom-line is that I do 99% of my pages by hard-coding .

Now... here is the kicker:
Recently my OS bugged-out on me (it's a long story... i'll spare ya) and when it came back to life, it rendered Visual InterDev useless (it crashes as soon as I launch it).

Now... if I couldn't hard-code... I'd be screwed. But that was not an issue... I just (reluctantly) launched Notepad and continued to cut down trees by hand.

So.. I guess the point is not
what DO you build with...
but...
what CAN you build with

Does that "sound hard-core"...
or does it sound like I can still work while your trying to figure out what your gonna do if the chain-saw stopped doing all of the work for you?

Sure WYSIWYG can make pages.
But it also creates designers who CAN'T make pages.
They are dependent on the application... and without it, they cut no trees at all.

So if your not serious about designing (and eventually developing) for the web... WYSIWYG is fine.
But if this is more than just a hobby... learn HTML (at least!).
Otherwise (and I'll say it again) "you are what you are".

***
okay... a quick (and legit) question for the Dreamweaver users out there :
I'm using Dreamweaver now (instead of just Notepad) while I wait for Visual InterDev to get fixed, and I can't figure-out how to PRINT my code! I see no print option at all.
Is it possible to print the code from Dreamweaver?
I'm stumped.
;) k

[dr_bozak]

I first learned how to make web pages with notepad and ws_ftp .. so I can hand code just fine.

then I used WYSIWYG editor in Netscape and it was alright.
A good beginners tool.

Then I used dreamweaver ... it is sweet.

here is why:

code view and layout view and a split screen view:
code view is like notepad. just text.
layout view is WYSIWYG.
split is .. welll .. take a guess.


you can easily toggle back and forth between the views.

Dreamweaver doesn't always display things right in WSYWIG mode, but you can apply things like class tags to multiple objects by selecting them.

Oh yeah .. integrated FTP is nice too.

ctrl S + crtl SHIFT U = saves and uploads your page in one fell swoop.

other cool features is a link updater that updates the links to a file if you move it within the "site" directory.

Dreamweaver is muy bueno.

:cool:

[dr_bozak]

well .. depending on what version of dreamweaver you have.
in dreamweaver mx ..

select the code view.

File > Print Code


??

:confused:

[Robert Wellock]

Mainly Notepad since I tend to use PHP includes and Apache Server to output the XHTML. Occasionally when on my own machine I will use HTML-Kit or XML Spy Enterprise just for the IDE aspects like syntax highlighting.

[jeffmott]

I just thought I'd put the spotlight on an otherwise unknown IDE, ActiveState Komodo (http://www.activestate.com/Products/Komodo/). I originally got it for use as a Perl IDE, however it supports a large set of free languages (HTML, JavaScript, Perl, PHP, and many more). One of the nice features is it will report errors as you type. For example:<body foo>It will use the MS Word styled red jagged underline with the message Warning: unknown attribute "foo". Similarly for Perl it taps right into the interpreter to alert you of compile time errors.

If you look through the list of features, make a special point to check out the Regular Expression Toolkit. What seems like a very simple yet very useful tool that really makes this program shine.

[eutstars]

I use NoteTabPro for my coding. Tried Frontpage once and hated it. Everyone has their own thing. Personally I like the hard coding because it is more like building to me than the other is. So, everyone, just do it the way you like it best. :)

[EXoCiDe]

i use Notepad.

dreamweaver sux btw.

[pyro]

Originally posted by EXoCiDe
dreamweaver sux btw. Why would you say that? I personally use DreamWeaver MX. I generally use the code view. There are several reasons for this. One is the syntax hightlighting for PHP. I program quite a bit in PHP, and this is a big feature for me. But, even for HTML, CSS and javascript, it is nice, as it can keep track of your css classes, javascript functions, etc...

[khaki]

dr_bozak wrote:

printing code in DW

well .. depending on what version of dreamweaver you have.
in dreamweaver mx ..

select the code view.

File > Print Code


??

:confused:Oh.... why didn't I think of that!
What?! Oh... I did?
Duh :rolleyes:

No offense doc... but you don't need to be a brain surgeon to come to that conclusion ;)

So... NO... that is not an option (see attached GIF to see what options I actually have from the File menu).

Seriously... I'm stumped. This makes no sense at all.
HOW IS IT NOT POSSIBLE TO PRINT CODE IN A CODE EDITING APPLICATION?!!!

And before anyone asks if I've looked in the Help menu, or Online Help, or books (of which I own 2)...
NOWHERE does the word "PRINT" appear ANYWHERE!!!

Now I won't go so far as to say that "DW sux" (i think that maybe EXoCiDe has too much metal in his head ;) )... I will say that it severely diminishes it's standing as a premier editor without the ability to print code (which is really a shame... becuase the rest of it is pretty good - although I only use code view... so I guess that I don't demand much else from it).

SO...
anyone???!!!!

It's Dreamweaver UltraDev version 4.

someone.... p--l--e--a--s--e--!!!

;) k

[jeffmott]

I've also check DW4 and did not find any way to print. I'll be able to check DWMX for you in a lil bit and let you know if it's different. Otherwise, I'd say your options right now are to paste it into notepad and print from there, or don't use DW.

[khaki]

I'd say your options right now are to paste it into notepad and print from there, or don't use DW.Okay... so we are all in agreement that in some instances Notepad is superior to DW :) LOL !!!!

If this wasn't so absurd.... it would be funny!!!

;) k

[jeffmott]

Yup, DWMX has a print code option under the file menu.

[Daria]

When you just learning, code AND design view option is a priceless feature of a DW. Seeing how your hardcode action affect the page in real time is really great, saves you a lot of time, too. You know, not everyone has a luxury of having 2 monitors when they begin.

Unlike everyone's beloved notepad, DW is an excellent tool when it comes to site management. If I have a site of 246 pages it's a joy checking it for broken links, or rebundant tags with DW rather then going over it manually. Using templates while coming up with the design is fun, too. Saves messload of energy.

Either way, I know it's a lot of fun doing hardcoding, but, really, I wish I just had the time...

[jeffmott]

I didn't, and still don't, have two monitors. I simply hit save in notepad and refresh the browser. I have to switch between the two windows just like you have to switch between the two views.

When hard coding I also make very good use of SSI includes. Something which WYSIWYG editors don't allow (to the best of my knowledge). And when I do that on a site with hundreds of pages it is quickly discovered that hard coding saved an enormous amount of time in the long run than if I had use an editor.

[khaki]

I agree with Jeff.
Notepad and a browser is equal to Code and Design view.
Unlike everyone's beloved notepad, DW is an excellent tool when it comes to site management. If I have a site of 246 pages it's a joy checking it for broken links, or rebundant tags with DW rather then going over it manually.Yes... for site management, DW (or Visual InterDev... which is what I use... and other such apps) are necessary. But site-management is a "professional's tool"... since hobby page makers, bloggers (or whatever) have little need for developing in a site-management environment.

The statement of redundant tags however, does not apply here.
No hard-coder will place reduntant tags in thier code in the first place.
It's WYSIWYG editors that put them in there.
Anyone who puts redundant code in thier pages deserves the agony of going through hundreds of lines of code to remove them. ;)

and i'll re-state my main point again:
It's not...
what DO you build with...
but...
what CAN you build with.

WYSIWYG does not level the playing field between those who can hard-code and those who can't.
As long as that point is understood by all... I could really care less what you use to build your pages. :rolleyes:

;) k

[khaki]

Yup, DWMX has a print code option under the file menu. ...and thanks for the info Jeff.

I'm sure that Macromedia got justifiably killed for that omission in earlier versions.

(that doesn't help me now though... :rolleyes: )

;) k

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by khaki
and i'll re-state my main point again:
It's not...
what DO you build with...
but...
what CAN you build with.
Well, that is all fine, but as long as they have the program, they don't need to be able to do it without it. ;) And while I don't like WYSIWYG editors, the reason is because I am a programmer not a designer. If a designer wants to use a design program to save time, I think that is fine. khaki, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are also more of a programmer than a designer, right? So, that is probably why you don't like editors, since they wouldn't help you much anyway. At the moment, I'm using Frontpage( :eek: ), which does make some pretty nasty code, but I only use it for the preview. I find that much quicker than having to use seperate windows...

Cheers!
Adam

[khaki]

If a designer wants to use a design program to save time, I think that is fine. Sure. But the code will still be suspect at best.
(and if he passes it to me to add programming code to it... I'll send it right back and tell him to clean it before he contaminates my code editor :) After all... he may not be the only one who needs to edit the code on the page)

as long as they have the program, they don't need to be able to do it without it Sure. So you live in a perfect world?
(I gotta move to a world like that ;) )

khaki, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are also more of a programmer than a designer, right? So, that is probably why you don't like editors, since they wouldn't help you much anyway. Ummmm... there are plenty of people who would place my programming abilities in the same category as my designing abilities :rolleyes: but dont forget... I still need to place all of my elements (tabular data, menus, links, iframes, images, etc) on the page.
If a WYSIWYG could do that cleanly, it would help me (very much!).
But... it can't...
so... I can't rely on it for that.

And lastly...
This topic is one of "those" topics for me.
I may get all passionate about it... but my underlying message is simply to learn basic HTML (at least) for your own good (at least).
I fear that WYSIWYG editors are dumbing-down the new crop of designers. And that is not good for the future of web development (in my opinion).

oh.... and thanks for not capitalizing my name :) (at least I know that you pay attention to me... even when I'm just blabbering-away in some of my off-topic posts. lol ;) )

just can't shut-up on this subject...
;) k

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by khaki
Sure. But the code will still be suspect at best.
(and if he passes it to me to add programming code to it... I'll send it right back and tell him to clean it before he contaminates my code editor After all... he may not be the only one who needs to edit the code on the page)

Well, I would agree with that if your talking about Frontpage, but Dreamweaver generates pretty nice code(not perfect, but not bad...). It's probably better than half(or more) of the people that try to do it by hand(I'm sure you seen some of that kind of code... ;)).
Originally posted by khaki
Sure. So you live in a perfect world?
(I gotta move to a world like that ;) )Yup... :D j/k
Originally posted by khaki
And lastly...
This topic is one of "those" topics for me.
I may get all passionate about it... but my underlying message is simply to learn basic HTML (at least) for your own good (at least).
I fear that WYSIWYG editors are dumbing-down the new crop of designers. And that is not good for the future of web development (in my opinion).
Well, I don't really see that happening. And I think that it is fine for a non-perfessional to just make the site to the best of their ability(without learning new languages...). Mostly what they are doing without learning any of it is making it hard on themselves more than anyone else. So, I would encourage people to learn it, but that doesn't mean they have to...
Originally posted by khaki
oh.... and thanks for not capitalizing my name (at least I know that you pay attention to me... even when I'm just blabbering-away in some of my off-topic posts. lol )Just of curiosity, why don't you like your name capitalized? Seems kind of weird to me... ;)

[khaki]

Just of curiosity, why don't you like your name capitalized? Seems kind of weird to me... why is the grass green....
and the sky blue?

some things just have a greater meaning than any of us can ever hope to understand ;)

(you didn't know that i'm weird :confused: ) ...
;) k

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by khaki
why is the grass green....
and the sky blue?Grass is green because it is full with chlorophyll that is a green pigment that reflects green light from the sun and absorbs the other colors.

When sunlight enters our atmosphere it collides with the oxygen and nitrogen atoms. The color with the shorter wavelength is scattered more by this collision. Because blue is a short wavelength the sky appears to be blue.

So, why don't you like your name capitalized? ;)

Originally posted by khaki
(you didn't know that i'm weird :confused: )Well, as you can see from the above, I'm not exactly normal... :D

[IxxI]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
So, why don't you like your name capitalized? ;)

Probably for the same reason I write mine IxxI and not ixxi or any other variant (not that I'm bothered on how people spell it of course) :p

IxxI

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by IxxI
Probably for the same reason I write mine IxxI and not ixxi or any other variant (not that I'm bothered on how people spell it of course) :p

IxxI Ok, so why do you do it?? :D j/k BTW, it doesn't bother me, I was just wondering if there was a reason. ;)

[IxxI]

Apparently it's to do with chlorophyll and wavelengths of light :D .
Seriously though, why is the universe expanding? Why are quarks up, down, bottom, top, strange and charmed? Why are gluons, gluons? (I can be un-normal too!)
I think thats possibly what khaki (notice the lack of capitalisation) was referring to. Hope that made as little sense as it was meant to (got my dancing shoes on again, eh khaki!)

IxxI

[Daria]

Khm... Sometimes when I use Notepad (when I am not at location that has my trusty DW), I can use the same page format over and over (I'm sure it sounds familiar), while copying and pasting pages. I have some pre-set paragraph formats, so I don't have to type <p><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1" color="#6666FF"><b> ... etc. on each page for specific paragraphs, but just fill in the copied "blanks". And I don't go deleting empty lines until I'm set with the whole site, because sometimes the need for the text arises not in the beginning of the site development, but at the very end. Sometimes when I work late in the morning my hands may fail me and I can type<a name="f91"></a> and the <a href="F01">link</a> in another place and I don't always see the "broken" links in the local browser.

Maybe if I go over that kind of stuff manually, when I'm done with all the pages... maybe I will get some kind of satisfaction of removing reDundant tags and fixing not-so-valid links from all the pages by hand, instead of making two clicks in the DW... but I'd rather save the time and seek my satisfaction elswhere.

[jeffmott]

I have some pre-set paragraph formats, so I don't have to type <p><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1" color="#6666FF"><b> ... etcIf not wanting to constantly retype font tags is some people's argument for WYSIWYG editors over hard coding then there really is no argument. FONT tags have been the old (and discouraged) method for defining page styles for almost four years now.

No offense was meant to Daria (just in case any was taken). :)

[Daria]

No offense taken :) sometimes developing in a certain way is not your choice, you just have to do what you are getting paid to do, even if you do not agree with your clients/bosses opinion, that's all.

[web-eagle]

Originally posted by jeffmott
When hard coding I also make very good use of SSI includes. Something which WYSIWYG editors don't allow (to the best of my knowledge).

I use DW4, and it does display SSIs in the design view. You don’t need to run a server to see exactly what you’re going to get. That’s a biggie for me.:)

[jeffmott]

I'll have to double check (I can't at the moment) but it seems like while DW4 will display the result of an SSI include, DWMX will not.

[Kaisa]

If i really had to hardcode my site i would like to use a program that shows scripts instead of images and a browser with it other then that i use a V.WYSIWYG Editor

[Decaff]

Homesite 5 is my tool of choice...let's you interface directly with your website to see how your changes are looking...
Has nice support for PHP/ASP/JSP for dynamic site database interface scripting..../CSS/Javacript and the like...XHTML/XML/XSLT/WML support....nice validator...great global find and replace for quick changes on static type sites...

Textpad was a tool of choice several years back (had a nice regular expression find and replace feature...but you had to know the regular expressions...
You have absolute control over all you coding...I think this is important because the WYSIWYG editors, even though they are helpful and DreamWeaver seems to be the best of the lot, tend to write bloated code that can be redundant...

My hats off to anyone who is pushing forth into this challenging and fun publishing arena called the web...

Just some of my thoughts...

[sheila]

Originally posted by IxxI
I'm not saying it's bad to use wysiwyg editors, but I think its bad for newbies to use wysiwyg editors, as I feel its important to have an understanding of what you are doing before you do it.

In my experience many newbies are overwhelmed when faced with code and find it helpful to play around with a WYSIWYG editor just to familiarise themselves with the basic components available to them, eg. images, tables, links, paragraphs, lists, etc, and their uses/limitations.

As far as I'm concerned this is a good idea although I also believe that a good designer should understand code well enough that a WYSIWYG editors is useful tool rather than a crutch.

Personally, I hand-code using Homesite (for XHTML, ASP, XML and XSLT) and Topstyle Lite (for CSS) and consider it a limitation that I'm not familiar with Dreamweaver - I suspect it might save me quite a bit of time.

[Falconix]

I've always just used Notepad, for... everything. Using something like Dreamweaver wouldn't benefit me at all, for a few reasons...

1) Most of my code isn't image heavy; I'm a fan of speed.
2) I use PHP, which, from what I've heard, is hard to add to WYSIWYG-generated pages.
3) Most of the code I write is generated by scripts and databases, so I need to have a pretty full CSS heirarchy set up for it to look good and work well.

As for beginners, I really don't know. It probably depends on what you want to do... If you want a quick web page that looks nice, then it's probably a good idea. However, if you want to start off simple and eventually get to coding good pages on your own, it's probably better to use notepad or some textual edittor, and learn slowly with practice.

[pyro]

Originally posted by Falconix
Using something like Dreamweaver wouldn't benefit me at all...
2) I use PHP, which, from what I've heard, is hard to add to WYSIWYG-generated pages. Actually, Dreamweave is great for programming in PHP -- in the code view. It has syntax highlighting, code hints, etc... I also program in PHP often, and love DW's PHP support.

[Robert Wellock]

I was just testing Dreamwever MX for amusements sake with some PHP includes and it screwed them up adding additional ; ?> I rarely use other than notepad - and I loathe WYSINWYG - so it was quite easy for me to located the DW generated errors and fix them in notepad.

[pyro]

To be honest, I've never used the WYSIWYG aspect of Dreamweaver with PHP. Didn't even know it existed. I like the code view... ;)

[Daria]

You can do pretty much anything in code view. It's just like Notepad. I'm writing my *.css, *.cgi *.pl (well, those I just modify) in code view, too!

[alvarezbjm]

I use the best editor of all: NOTEPAD!, (by microsoft)

The goodness of the result relies upon the sleekness of the developer.

However, some software really helps when tables come to play. Word, Dreamweaver, Excel... Any of them.

OK, ok. One more thing: OOP (object oriented programming). If someone has developed something already, then don't reinvent the wheel! (buttons, clocks, etc. Hey, don't copy other's property: use opensource!)

Mi página (http://jm.freeownhost.com)
Desde Costa Rica (http://www.c-r.blogspot.com)

[Sheldon]

I use BBedit 8.2 for the Mac and HTML Kit for windows, I teach dreamweaver to a class of 5 2x a week.

I much prefer to hard code but that is me, anything goes there is no industry standard. Although it is much harder to produce a vail page with a wysiwyg editor.

[AdamBrill]

I use the best editor of all: NOTEPAD!, (by microsoft)

The goodness of the result relies upon the sleekness of the developer.

However, some software really helps when tables come to play. Word, Dreamweaver, Excel... Any of them.

OK, ok. One more thing: OOP (object oriented programming). If someone has developed something already, then don't reinvent the wheel! (buttons, clocks, etc. Hey, don't copy other's property: use opensource!)

Mi página (http://jm.freeownhost.com)
Desde Costa Rica (http://www.c-r.blogspot.com)You pull up a 31 month old thread to say that?? You've got to be kidding me. :mad:

[Mouse77e]

Speaking for the Dyslexic out here, i love Dreamweaver... ok so it's killing me now i am learning PHP but i still wouldn't be without it..

[Ubik]

I use Homesite++ v 5.5, but not the WYSIAWYGISC (What you see is almost what you get in some cases) part.

Or notepad. I like HomeSite as it has really great FTP and indentation and color scheming, and standard shortcut keys.

[AdamBrill]

This thread is 31 months old. It was dead and is now writhing in it's grave. Please, let it die in peace.

[Kravvitz]

AdamBrill, I agree that this thread should have been left undisturbed, however, since it has been temporarily rejuvenated, please stop complaining.

I use the best editor of all: NOTEPAD!, (by microsoft)
Best?!? Why would you say that? Other text editors have so many more features that are very useful.

[gerald_1605]

Question, how do you learn to hard code?

[Kravvitz]

You mean "hand code", not "hard code".

Repeated reading, learning, and practice over and over and over.

Beware of all of the sites that claim to teach HTML, XHTML, CSS, etc. Many of them have many errors.

Here are links to some of the best resources for beginners.
Getting started with HTML (http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/)
More Advanced Features (http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/Advanced)
Adding a touch of style (http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/Style)
Learning CSS (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/learning)
HTML 4.01 Specification (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/)
CSS2 Specification (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/)

You should test in good browsers like Firefox (http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/) and Opera (http://www.opera.com/), not just IE.