2.79 a gallon!!

[PhillMc]

That's how much 1 gallon of regular gasoline is in my area, 10 miles away it's 3.00 and I'm told it's going up again tomorrow.

So, I have decided, I am getting a bike. I'm not joking either, lol. I'm not paying 50 + dollars a week to fill a Honda.

Just curious, but what are prices in other areas?

Please, let's stay away from political theories; I'm not looking for a debate/fight. :D

[schizo]

Hit $3 (regular) today in the Cincinnati, OH area. Good thing my car takes premium :)

[Sanim]

I think it's around 2.79 here. Or something like that... gah, stupid gas station web sites don't even tell you the prices of the gas...

[felgall]

In Australia it is now over one US dollar per litre - about double what you are paying. In England it is about double what it is in Australia. So just think how good you have it in the US.

[PhillMc]

In Australia it is now over one US dollar per litre - about double what you are paying. In England it is about double what it is in Australia. So just think how good you have it in the US.

May twice in numbers, but the current exchange rate of $1 US is roughly $2 AUS, so your paying about what we are.

Now, England has it bad, 1 British pound is worth about $2 US...

...EDIT...
I didn't see the "US" in your post... lol :o

[gchick]

oh my! time to load the bikes again

[MstrBob]

It's around $3 - $3.20 around me. Which is insane, because last weak it was around $2.80. Luckily, I rely on public transportation - but I'm worried as to what else this will impact. Shipping costs, production costs, heating costs and the like will all be up this year (especially now given the hurricane in the South). Going to be an expensive time for us in the U.S.

[pyro]

$3.39 (http://www.ryanbrill.com/archives/gas-prices-out-of-control/) for me...

[theuedimaster]

May twice in numbers, but the current exchange rate of $1 US is roughly $2 AUS, so your paying about what we are.

Now, England has it bad, 1 British pound is worth about $2 US...

...EDIT...
I didn't see the "US" in your post... lol :o

Yea, we do have it lucky. The US government has been subsidizing our prices for far too long, now we're going to pay the price more than full.

[Ultimater]

Oh come on, when is gasoline ever gonna be worth more than bottled water... :p

[drhowarddrfine]

2.99 in St. Louis but I haven't been out yet this morning.

[philaweb]

Well, my car runs about 75 miles on a gallon of diesel.

I am now paying $40 a month to fill my car with diesel, that's 100% more than two years ago. It will be a long time before I begin worrying about fuel prices...

[PhillMc]

$3.39 (http://www.ryanbrill.com/archives/gas-prices-out-of-control/) for me...
Just hit 3 here today, and I'm told it's going up more tomorrow. So far, gas has jumped 70 cents this week.

I may do as Philaweb has, get a small deisel(sp) car. I've heard it's easy to make your own deisel, they call it 'Bio-Deisel', but I'm not sure if it's true.

Can anyone tell me what prices are in Georgia, I heard Atlanta hit 5 a gallon...

[c0demast3r]

2.99 and going up here in Odessa, Texas.

[Mr Initial Man]

Just hit 3 here today, and I'm told it's going up more tomorrow. So far, gas has jumped 70 cents this week.

I may do as Philaweb has, get a small deisel(sp) car. I've heard it's easy to make your own deisel, they call it 'Bio-Deisel', but I'm not sure if it's true.

Can anyone tell me what prices are in Georgia, I heard Atlanta hit 5 a gallon...

I HAVE HEARD OF THIS STUFF!

I think this movement for "green fuels" - fuels derived from plants - may start to gain momentum because of one simple fact: They are cheaper. If they could get the word out more, customers would start screaming for them to the point that even the Oval Office Oil Baron couldn't stuff enough cotton in his ears.

WIth the prices of gasoline these days, this price jump will hopefully make people look for an alternative.

[PeOfEo]

Well, my car runs about 75 miles on a gallon of diesel.

I am now paying $40 a month to fill my car with diesel, that's 100% more than two years ago. It will be a long time before I begin worrying about fuel prices...
TDI?

[philaweb]

TDI?

Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDI (http://slettes.dk/redirect_to/?url_name= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Lupo).

BTW... Forget about this line in the wikipedia: "The Lupo has an intriguing design flaw: some say the dashboard cup holder renders the driver unable to use 1st or 3rd gear, although most owners do not report this." The car has combined automatic, tiptronic drive.

[JohnWeatherby]

Regular unleaded is C$4.92 ($3.69 USD) for a US Gallon in New Brunswick, Canada. That is C$1.299 per litre. :eek:

What gets me is, the gas stations haven't even sold what gas is in their tanks that they bought before the price went up. Gouge gouge gouge. :mad:

[philaweb]

The listed price of diesel at one of our unmanned gas station vendors (http://slettes.dk/redirect_to/?url_name=http://www.jet.dk/) is 8.92 DKK (Danish kroner) a liter ($1.496 a liter), which is $5.66 for a US gallon (1 gallon = 3.7854 liters).

Unleaded 95 octane gas is 10,64 DKK a liter ($1.7843 a liter), which is $6.75 for a US gallon.

[MstrBob]

Well, on the news this morning, they were at a gas station in Mobile Alabama, and it was a little over $6 a gallon for premium, and like $5.90-something for regular! Fricken price gougers.

[PhillMc]

Well, on the news this morning, they were at a gas station in Mobile Alabama, and it was a little over $6 a gallon for premium, and like $5.90-something for regular! Fricken price gougers.

Well, I was right, it just jumped another 20 cents; upto 3.20 now -- some of the local papers are telling us to expect $4.00 by Saturday. I can't take much more of this; if it hits $4 I'll be paying $60 + a week to fill my Honda...... that's just wrong for a Honda... lol

[Mr Initial Man]

Gonna REALLY hit car sales. Who's gonna buy a car they can't afford to drive? I think cars will become a luxury item once more.

[omnicity]

I just payed 92.9p (thats 1.70707 US$, apparently) this morning, per Litre, here in Edinburgh.
Thats about 7.5 US$ per gallon by my calculations.

Now the political bit:
This is payback: if the US didn't waste so much fuel, and had signed up to the Kyoto treaty, like every other country in the world did, the climate wouldn't be changing so fast, and this hurricane might not have happened.

Point 2: we will need oil in the future to make plastics with - when we can make cleaner fuels, such as alcohol, more cheaply, why do our governments still force us to waste oil?

[philaweb]

I may do as Philaweb has, get a small deisel(sp) car. I've heard it's easy to make your own deisel, they call it 'Bio-Deisel', but I'm not sure if it's true.

"Biodiesel" is a nickname for RME or Rape Methyl Ether (http://slettes.dk/redirect_to/?url_name=http://www.degussa.com/en/products/archive/2004_09_17_biodiesel.html).

If you have a car with a diesel engine, it is possible to convert the engine to run on 100 % raw vegetable oil as fuel (http://slettes.dk/redirect_to/?url_name=http://www.elsbett.com/engl/index.htm).

[PhillMc]

I just payed 92.9p (thats 1.70707 US$, apparently) this morning, per Litre, here in Edinburgh.
Thats about 7.5 US$ per gallon by my calculations.

Now the political bit:
This is payback: if the US didn't waste so much fuel, and had signed up to the Kyoto treaty, like every other country in the world did, the climate wouldn't be changing so fast, and this hurricane might not have happened.

Point 2: we will need oil in the future to make plastics with - when we can make cleaner fuels, such as alcohol, more cheaply, why do our governments still force us to waste oil?

Reply to point 1:
It is still only a theory that CO2 affects/causes storms, so at this point that is pure speculation, there is zero hard evidence to back these claims up.

Reply to point 2:
The current Administration is pushing for research/devolopment/deployment of Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology, which most of us know, has 0 emissions. It's only exhaust is water. Hydrogen is also practically inexhaustable; it can be obtained from water and strait from the air; but we're still talking decades before this will be practical enough for use. What I'm wondering is why don't we have cars like the Lupo in the US? We've got all this hype about Hybrids when this thing buries them as far as fuel economy goes.

[gchick]

actually, i heard in Japan that they are using a water and power to run the cars. smoothly, no pollution and healthy for the lungs...

[PhillMc]

actually, i heard in Japan that they are using a water and power to run the cars. smoothly, no pollution and healthy for the lungs...

That sounds like Hydrogen Fuel Cell to me; The car is totally electric, but it works with Hydrogen and Oxygen, when the 2 bond chemically to make water, electricty is produced due to electron travel and that electricity is stored to run the car, then the H20 (Water) is exhasted. Apsolutely 0 polution.

[philaweb]

What I'm wondering is why don't we have cars like the Lupo in the US?

Perhaps because everybody went out and bought SUV's the last 4-5 years! The larger the better.

Untill now there was no real market in the US for economical cars like the VW Lupo, perhaps there will be now... Because, the prices wont go back to "good old times".

[fereira]

For gas prices across the country see http://www.gasbuddy.com

Yesterday I found some stations that were charging over $4.00 a gallon and heard a rumor that there was a station in Alabama chargind $6.00. I also heard of some stations in upstate NY that claiim they're going to run out of gas before the middle of next week due to the number of people filling up before gas prices go up further.


My wife drives a hybrid and she's worried about it.

[PhillMc]

Nice..... 20 more cents.. 3.40 :rolleyes:

Perhaps because everybody went out and bought SUV's the last 4-5 years! The larger the better.

:confused: I'd hazzard to estimate that the percentage of SUV's I see on the road (and I do a lot of driving) would be 20 to 30 percent. The majority of cars you'll see here are sedans and coupes. The last I saw a large SUV was 2 days ago; most of the SUV's you'll see here are small/er, with decent fuel economy (20 - 25 or so). In fact, the most popular SUV's around here would have to be Honda CRV's and Scion's, lol.

[Ultimater]

If 'em hydrogen cars take bottled water, I'm gonna stick with gas :D
edit:
wait no it seems the "water car" eats hydrogen and oxygen not water... How much do hydrogen and oxygen go for in today's market?

[MstrBob]

Nice..... 20 more cents.. 3.40 :rolleyes:



:confused: I'd hazzard to estimate that the percentage of SUV's I see on the road (and I do a lot of driving) would be 20 to 30 percent. The majority of cars you'll see here are sedans and coupes. The last I saw a large SUV was 2 days ago; most of the SUV's you'll see here are small/er, with decent fuel economy (20 - 25 or so). In fact, the most popular SUV's around here would have to be Honda CRV's and Scion's, lol.

Maybe in the south, but in New York there has to be a two to one ration in favor of SUV's. Which really is the supidest fooking thing on earth, we're a major city, why do you need a vehicle that big?


Problem with say, fuel cell cars and biodiesel, or even diesel is that there is no place to fuel up. To have a marketable car on other fuel would require a huge investment in filling stations.

[philaweb]

why do you need a vehicle that big?
Hmm... Lemme C... A potency thing? "Hey, look what I can afford to sit on.. ehem.. in!"
Problem with say, fuel cell cars and biodiesel, or even diesel is that there is no place to fuel up. To have a marketable car on other fuel would require a huge investment in filling stations.
Let me try to convey my point American style: "First man to build a biodiesel refinery will become stinkin' rich... no, no... make that WEALTHY!"

[MstrBob]

Let me try to convey my point American style: "First man to build a biodiesel refinery will become stinkin' rich... no, no... make that WEALTHY!"

I wish capitalism were as simple as "whoever makes the cheapest and best product will win out".

For any sizeable fraction of americans to begin to consider alternative fuel, there would have to be a large large large amount of refilling stations. Many people take road trips, many travel hundreds of miles, some commute daily between multiple states. No one will buy an alternatively powered vehicle unless they can be assured they can always refill it.

Really, the only one who could afford the infastructure and still manage to keep a competitive price on it, would be if the oil companies themselves jumped on the greener fuels idea. It would make sense, considering that they have a finite supply of oil, however, what publically traded company that has to report constantly on their expenditures would invest in such a long term, risky endeavor?

The only chance I see is if gas prices keep rising, and then stay at a high level, say $4.50 or $5 a gallon and stayed there for awhile. A year or two at least, because a lot of people lease cars and are locked into those leases. Then, when people are sick and tired of prices, more efficient and enviromentally friendly vehicles stand a chance.

[chucknasty74]

It blows my mind that the same people who are stunned by gas being $3 a gallon are happy to pay $4 for 12oz of beer, $3.50 for 16oz of coffee and $2 for a liter of water...I suppose it is all about priorities...

[thuko135]

You forgot to mention 4 or 5 bucks for a pack of cigarettes ...
We had stations run out of gas yesterday. There were lines on the highway to get in, because one station was a lot cheaper than all the rest. Well, now this station has no gas, oh well.

[JPnyc]

My parents are on Long Island and my dad told me today he paid $3.29 a gallon for regular gas, this week. He was heading to the gym, and it was $3.19 and he figured he get gas after working out. By the time he finished and hit the gas station, it had gone up a dime.

[PhillMc]

You forgot to mention 4 or 5 bucks for a pack of cigarettes ...
We had stations run out of gas yesterday. There were lines on the highway to get in, because one station was a lot cheaper than all the rest. Well, now this station has no gas, oh well.

I got smart when I saw cigarette prices jumping; no, I didn't quite, I started smoking a pipe. I pay $8 a month on my habit -- sure, it looks a little silly, but I'm laughing all the way to the bank. :)

Back on topic,
I got an idea; for the past several days I've noticed this girl who works down the road riding an electric scooter to and from work; it's not very fast, I'd say maybe 25 mph, but it got me to thinking; How hard would it be to outfit, lets say, an 18 speed bike with a motor like that? I know I'd have to modify the bike and remove the pedals and such, but I'm almost sure that you could clear 45 mph with such a rig...

[philaweb]

How hard would it be to outfit, lets say, an 18 speed bike with a motor like that? I know I'd have to modify the bike and remove the pedals and such, but I'm almost sure that you could clear 45 mph with such a rig...

Perhaps one of these (http://slettes.dk/redirect_to/?url_name=http://www.vespausa.com/) could meet your needs for transportation?
Especially the Vespa ET2 that in most states does not require a motor cycle drivers license.

[PhillMc]

I don't see a thing about fuel economy; and I'm a cheapskate.. lol. I've never paid more that 2,000 for any car I've ever owned, lol.

[MstrBob]

You're going to go pioneer Motorcycle style? You brave soul...


You could try paraskating, but that would depend how windy it is where you live...

[theuedimaster]

I don't see a thing about fuel economy; and I'm a cheapskate.. lol. I've never paid more that 2,000 for any car I've ever owned, lol.

The benefits of Fuel Economy are not only for YOU.

[philaweb]

I don't see a thing about fuel economy;
Vespa ET2 goes approximately 65 miles per gallon 92 octane gas.
and I'm a cheapskate.
No, you're not. You're too lazy to find an alternative.
I've never paid more that 2,000 for any car I've ever owned, lol.
Perhaps for the car. If you paid 3,000 for a scooter that runs three times farther on a gallon of 92 octane gas, then you could cut your gas budget with two thirds. So, after how many months will you be earning money on driving a scooter?

[philaweb]

You're going to go pioneer Motorcycle style? You brave soul...

Well, comments like that is exactly why it is not fashionable in the US to consider economical transportation.

How many $ a gallon does it take for the American man (and woman) to skip the macho SUV attitude and buy the economical alternative?

Don't moan about the increasing gas prices if you're not ready to do something about them. :)

(And "to do something about them" does IMHO not include invading an oilproducing country).

[MstrBob]

Well, comments like that is exactly why it is not fashionable in the US to consider economical transportation.

How many $ a gallon does it take for the American man (and woman) to skip the macho SUV attitude and buy the economical alternative?

Don't moan about the increasing gas prices if you're not ready to do something about them. :)

(And "to do something about them" does IMHO not include invading an oilproducing country).

I've no problem with alternative transport. I live in New York City, I don't have a car, probably won't while I live here, it just doesn't make sense. I'll normally either walk, bike, or take public transit to get where I need to go. There's nothing wrong with scooters, either. But if Phill wants to strap a motor onto a bicycle and see what happens, well then, he needs luck. :p

[philaweb]

I've no problem with alternative transport.
Well, my post was not exactly directed at you personally. :)

But if Phill wants to strap a motor onto a bicycle and see what happens, well then, he needs luck.
That is why I linked to the scooter website. What he is looking for already exists. :)

[omnicity]

A few years back I was in Brasil, and about half of the cars there were running on Ethanol (Alcohol) which I believe they distilled from the waste products of the sugar-cane industry. Unlike hydrogen power, this is truly clean - please try and remember that electric vehicles, whether powered by a fuel cell or by batteries, needs to get its power from somewhere. Since all processes are inefficient to some degree, splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen requires a power station somewhere to burn even more coal/oil than just burning petrol in an engine. A fuel cell may keep our cities clean, but they harm the atmosphere even more than petrol does!

[PhillMc]

No, you're not. You're too lazy to find an alternative.


I'm not exactly sure how I should take that.

[MstrBob]

Perhaps we should investigate TCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conversion_process) ?

[philaweb]

I'm not exactly sure how I should take that.

I am sorry for that line.

I had a bad day with a short fuse, not because of you, but because of something else.

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

it's about US$7 a gallon here now

well, it's known that current american cars consume much much more gas than other, here in europe regular city cars and even cars that have more horsepower like Audi A4/6/8, Big Mercedes-Benz, BMW 5er/7er are not consuming as much as their american equivalent.

[Sheldon]

in New Zealand we pay $1.52 per litre of our Regular petrol, which is 91 octane, Most other countries don't even sell this older dirtier grade of petrol 95,96 octaine in normally the lowest.

Super/Premimium is $1.62 per litre, 6 montha ago it was $1.18 and 18 months ago it was less than $0.98 p/l.


Crazy

[tabzter]

Here is Manchester, England Im paying 98p per litre petrol.
Assuming £1 = $1.81(US) thats $1.78 and using 1 gallon (US) = 3.79 litres.

That means im paying $6.75 (US) per gallon.

I cant believe Americans pay less than half of that!!

Actually lets see how much you guys from around the world actually save.
Over here in the UK for me to run my car, every year, I also have to pay for car insurance (£1500), vehicle inspection test [MOT] (about £120), fuel (£750).

Does anyone else have to pay these extortianate prices??

PS. Thats probably why there gonna blockade all petrol coming out from refineries this week or the next.

[Charles]

Keep in mind, however, we Americans spend huge ammounts of money on oil wars and on keeping a military at the ready for said wars. It would be ineresting to take the number of gallons of automotive fuel consumed by us in a year and divide that by the sum of our military spending and our support for Israel.

[MstrBob]

Europe also tends to have vehicles with higher gas mileage. I wonder, when taking into account mileage and cost, who actually winds up paying more?

[Charles]

I just ran some numbers and roughly speaking in the US we pay an additional $2.75 per gallon in terms of warfare overhead. Gas seems to be holding around 3.25 a gallon around here so I'm really paying about $6.00 a gallon.

[David Harrison]

Europe also tends to have vehicles with higher gas mileage. I wonder, when taking into account mileage and cost, who actually winds up paying more?Are you joking? Everyone in America (not sure about Canada) drives monster trucks.

[MstrBob]

Are you joking? Everyone in America (not sure about Canada) drives monster trucks.

Beyond the fact that there are a lot of people here who drive trucks without a need for them, even your plain vanilla sedan in the US gets much lower mileage than most European equivalents. So I wonder, how much does it cost to go a mile in Europe? Let's do some math, on average I'd say a sedan gets about 27 miles to the gallon. Where I am, price is around $3.20 USD. Sooo, that's roughly about $0.12 to go a mile in the US. Or, 11.45 miles a liter with the price at 2.61 EUR a liter, so 0.22 EUR a km. Did I do that math right? $0.12 USD to go a mile, or 0.22 to go 1.6 km. What is it in europe?

[David Harrison]

My dad's car gets about 30 mpg but it's a fairly big car, Vauxhall Omega and I think the engine size is 2.2L but I'm not sure on that.

My mum's car is a dinky Nissan Micra and I don't really know how much fuel it uses, the engine size is only 1L though. She refills it about once every month.

[Jeff Mott]

Now the political bit:
This is payback: if the US ... had signed up to the Kyoto treaty, like every other country in the world did, the climate wouldn't be changing so fast, and this hurricane might not have happened.The ideal behind the Kyoto Protocol (that is, protecting the environment) is a good one, but that doesn't actually say anything about its effectivness. The average global temperature is expected to rise by 5.8C by 2100. Even if the Kyoto Protocol's most optimistic projections occured the average temerature predicted for 2100 would come down to only 5.52C (barely a 1% drop). And, keep in mind that human waste accounts for at most 3% of the total carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Whether humans are even the cause of global warming at all is also not known. Many people accept the global warming hypothesis as fact because it has been very highly publicized, but if you do some research you'd find that there is actually very little real science to back it up.

EDIT: BTW, even if the global warming hypothesis is true, climatologists generally agree that it has had no affect on the frequency or severity of tropical cyclones. (http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/G4.html).

[Charles]

Perhaps it's true that we don't know that human activity is causing global warming but then, as David Hume observed, we can never say that any one thing causes another. All we can claim is "constant conjunction." And moreover, as Socrates observed, "How do we know that death, which men fear most, isn't the best thing after all?"

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

..and he died thinking this, yeah..who knows

[Jeff Mott]

Perhaps it's true that we don't know that human activity is causing global warming but then, as David Hume observed, we can never say that any one thing causes another. All we can claim is "constant conjunction."Nice to see that you can throw philosophical catch phrases, completely devoid of any evidence, into the debate.

[Sanim]

It's hard to believe that two years ago the price of gas was less than $1.20...

[PhillMc]

It's hard to believe that two years ago the price of gas was less than $1.20...

Heck, 4 years ago premium was $0.99 a gallon in this area. Glad to see prices are back under $3.00 per gallon; maybe I should take more vacations. lol

Europe also tends to have vehicles with higher gas mileage. I wonder, when taking into account mileage and cost, who actually winds up paying more?

That's a good question. If, on average, European vehicles get twice + mileage, then, statistically, they're not paying much more than we are. Heck, I'm now frowning at my honda (34 mpg average) knowing there are cars that get more than twice that.

Which brings up a question... The US has the most strigent(sp) emission standards for automobiles; in fact, it is illegal to drive an overseas vehicle here unless emission controls have be retrofitted; is it possible these same standards are effecting fuel economy??

Another question... It was mentioned earlier that the lowest grade in Europe was above 92... The lowest I've seen here is 89 -- is it possible that Europeans have higher quality fuel than we do?

[philaweb]

Another question... It was mentioned earlier that the lowest grade in Europe was above 92... The lowest I've seen here is 89 -- is it possible that Europeans have higher quality fuel than we do?

The lowest grade in general is 92 octane in Europa, albeit in many Eastern European countries it is also possible to get 74 octane gas - mostly for old Soviet style vehicles.

[Charles]

The lowest grade in general is 92 octane in Europa, albeit in many Eastern European countries it is also possible to get 74 octane gas - mostly for old Soviet style vehicles.Do keep in mind that the Octane rating has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the gasoline/petrol. As you increase the compression of an engine the gasoline will tend to ignite before the spark causing a "ping", reducing performance and damaging the engine. And so retarders are added to gasoline. The higher the octane rating the slower the gasoline will burn.

"Who needs a hoby like reading or philately, I've got a hobby re-reading Lady Chaterly."

[MstrBob]

The real killer with our good old polluting gasoline combustion engines, is that not all the carbon completely burns. Which reminds me, I came across this the other day, Using Hydrogen to Increase Efficieny (http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=cfeb17de-d945-4db4-87a6-090911200e96).

Now, of course, take everything you read with a grain of salt that goes without saying. But if this is true, it would be very interesting. Fill up your car with distilled water and get a 10% - 40% reduction in fuel consumption with a 97% pullutant reducement? Sounds too good to be true, and we all know how that saying goes. Still though, in it were...

[theuedimaster]

EDIT: BTW, even if the global warming hypothesis is true, climatologists generally agree that it has had no affect on the frequency or severity of tropical cyclones. (http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/G4.html).

If the temperature on earth rises 5.8 C... well... I do believe there would be a climate change ;).

[theuedimaster]

Nice to see that you can throw philosophical catch phrases, completely devoid of any evidence, into the debate.

I assure you, even though you trust your vast life experiences to tell you that these "philosophical catch phrases" are crap, they do make sense ;).

[Charles]

But if this is true, it would be very interesting. Fill up your car with distilled water and get a 10% - 40% reduction in fuel consumption with a 97% pullutant reducement? Sounds too good to be true, and we all know how that saying goes. Still though, in it were...I kid you not. One of the guys in the locker room was spreading the news of some wonderful new invention hes was thinking about buying and about it being a new energy source. He had some stuff from the web site and I looked at it. It was a simple perpetual motion machine. It was nothing but a generator running a motor that turns the generator. And this guy is a school teacher.

There will always be something lost and at each part of a process.

[omnicity]

The ideal behind the Kyoto Protocol (that is, protecting the environment) is a good one,

So why did the US not sign up?

With regard to your link - do you trust every summary of opinions presented to you on a Government sponsored website? Next thing you'll be telling me that Windows is cheaper than LINUX, 'cos the Microsoft site says so!

I think that you will find that most experts say that no specific links have yet been proven between pollution and specific effects, but that is a long way from saying that they don't exist. A bit like saying that someone wasn't murdered, just because you can't yet prove who chopped their head off with an axe.

Did anyone learn about Brownian Motion at school? If you warm things up, the components move along a lot faster - watch a pot of water as it starts to boil if you don't understand.

[Jeff Mott]

If the temperature on earth rises 5.8 C... well... I do believe there would be a climate changeI did not say the climate would not change, I said there is no evidence that humans are responsible. Earth's climate *does* change all by itself. The temperature rises and falls cyclically over the period of a day, it rises and falls cyclically over the period of a year, and it rises and falls cyclically over the period of about 100,000 years. There have been *many* ice ages that have occurred before humans ever existed. The point is that it is just as likely that any temperature and climate changes are simply a natural phenomena.

I assure you, even though you trust your vast life experiences to tell you that these "philosophical catch phrases" are crap, they do make senseFeel free to quote me where I called them crap...... didn't think so.

What I *did* say is that it didn't prove or disprove anything. It's just talk with nothing to back it up. I could use Charles' first quote to argue that birds flying south (from the perspective or the northern hemisphere, of course) is the *cause* of colder climates, since this is a "constant conjunction". And I could claim this as fact regardless of the lack of evidence because, as Charles pointed out, we can never *really* say that one thing causes another.

And thus, such philosophical sayings in this context, however insightful, are meaningless by themselves. They still need to be supported by evidence, of which there was none.

[omnicity]

I could use Charles' first quote to argue that birds flying south (from the perspective or the northern hemisphere, of course) is the *cause* of colder climates, since this is a "constant conjunction".

But then we would immediatly point out the difference between cause and effect - I don't think that you can argue that increased pollution is a _result_ of climate change. Where it is impossible to prove a cause, the ultimate test is to reverse the suspect effect. If the causes of global warming are entirely natural that is no reason to ignore it - asteroid impacts are entirely natural, but if we were about to be wiped out by one I'm sure we would all want to try to intervene somehow.

Incidentally, by definition, 'climate' is longer term, say 50-year period, anything less is just 'weather', so the climate cannot change every year.

[theuedimaster]

To Mott:

Actually, the evidence is life and perspective. If you open up your mind, you can see that those quotes on reality, or what is reality, hold some water.

Now back to global warming, as Charles was saying, there is always an amount of doubt when trying to connect two events. However, there is ample scientific evidence to assume that global warming is due to human influence. Of course there always that chance that it is not, but it has enough evidence to be assumed truth for all general purposes. For If you live through life without taking ANYTHING for granted, then you shall sit and do nothing like a rock.

Beyond that, we KNOW we cause pollution. That is unarguable. We should of signed Kyoto, because as the most powerful country in the world, it is up to us to make the big step to decrease resource consumption and pollution in the world.

[Jeff Mott]

I don't think that you can argue that increased pollution is a _result_ of climate changeI never did....

But then we would immediatly point out the difference between cause and effectKnowing the difference between cause and effect does not give you any insight into the actual cause of any given effect.Where it is impossible to prove a cause, the ultimate test is to reverse the suspect effectBrilliant. Come up with a plan to reverse every effect humans have ever had on this planet and get back to me with that.If the causes of global warming are entirely natural that is no reason to ignore itI never said to ignore it. But we very well may be approaching the problem in a way that does no good at all....so the climate cannot change every yearOnce again, I never said this. Please read my posts more carefully in the future.Actually, the evidence is life and perspective. If you open up your mind, you can see that those quotes on reality, or what is reality, hold some water.They may be inspiration that lead people to seek truth, but they are not truth unto themselves.However, there is ample scientific evidence to assume that global warming is due to human influence. Of course there always that chance that it is not, but it has enough evidence to be assumed truth for all general purposes.I'm so glad I heard it straight from you. I suppose I'll change my mind now. :rolleyes:

Everything you just said there can be summarized to: "We're right, you're not." In a debate, you can't simply repeat your initial statement as if it has more meaning the second time you say it. You didn't add any information, references, anything to support your position.

A couple facts for you to chew over: there was a 30 year period beginning in the 1940s where temperatures went down even though CO2 continued to increase. Also, most of the warming in the last century occurred *before* most human CO2 had been released.

There's plenty to read on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy
So hopefully the next time you post you'll have something more substantial to say.

[theuedimaster]

Okay, so if we go from your point of view that global warming is not being caused by human activities, what can we do to stop it? If you shun upon the actions of activists today because they are ineffective, what is effective?

[Jeff Mott]

I don't know. No one really does. When humans have tried to control even small scale ecosystems the effects are often disastrous. We do not yet have nearly the knowledge we need to diagnose and successfully alter an ecosystem as large and complex as the biosphere.

[omnicity]

In all that quoting, I have rather lost context.

Do you believe that Global warming is occuring?

Do you believe that pollution is a problem?

Do you believe that the US should do more, such as signing up to the Kyoto treaty and similar efforts? (As recently as this years G8 conference the US president was saying 'it's not my fault, and I'm not going to fix it')

Do you believe it is sensible to build on land that is below sea level?

[David Harrison]

Well I can't say for everyone else, but here are my responses to your questions.

Do you believe that Global warming is occuring?
Yes, that's just a fact, the average global temperature is rising (at least, to my knowledge it is anyway).

Do you believe that pollution is a problem?
Pollution is always a problem, although I don't neccessarily believe that it's responsible for global warming it can't be helping.

Do you believe that the US should do more, such as signing up to the Kyoto treaty and similar efforts?
I believe that everyone should do more to reduce pollution, even simple things like cycling to work once in a while, recycling plastic bottles and old newspapers etc.

Do you believe it is sensible to build on land that is below sea level?
Depends, if it's right next to the sea then no, if it's very far in land then it may be OK, depends if there's a lot of rivers near-by, but I'm not exactly an architect so there are probably other factors to consider. Not really sure what this has to do with global warming and petrol prices though.

[Jeff Mott]

Do you believe that Global warming is occuring?
Do you believe that pollution is a problem?Yes and yes. Though the latter is not necessarily the cause of the former. Or, at the very least, not the most significant cause.Do you believe that the US should do more, such as signing up to the Kyoto treaty and similar efforts?Do more: Yes. By signing Kyoto: No. The Kyoto Protocol would cost a tremendous amount of money for only a miniscule effect. I would much rather see even a portion of that money put towards alternate fuel sources so that we can hopefully do away with fossil fuels entirely.As recently as this years G8 conference the US president was saying 'it's not my fault, and I'm not going to fix it'The kind of things that come out of the current president's mouth is another topic entirely.Do you believe it is sensible to build on land that is below sea level?I haven't researched this idea, so I really don't know.

[theuedimaster]

Sadly, we'll figure out what or who is reponsible for global warming in the coming decades. Then we'll see whos right.

[MstrBob]

Look, anybody in their right mind knows that global temperatures have been rising because of the lack of pirates! Think about it, over the past 200 years are so, the numbers of pirates have steadily decreased, while the global average temperature has gone up! Look at these numbers:

http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg

So what realistically can we do? Don eye patches, take part in and promote enviromentally-focussed activites like Talk Like A Pirate Day (http://talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html), and, most importantly, pray that He corrects our problems with his Noodly Appendage.

[David Harrison]

HA! I shun your God for I follow the invisible pink unicorn!

[theuedimaster]

All hail the holy FSM and his noodly appendage! (Don't you love saying that! ;) )

BTW David Harrison, nice comp!

[omnicity]

Look at these numbers:



Nicely skewed graph, (is that meant to be a logarithmic scale along the bottom?) but dubious figures. Even if we discount national influences, I think you will find that there are rather more than 17 pirates operational in the far east, the med and the carribbean! Besides, if we ever hit zero Pirates, then the problem will stop getting worse, so no need to worry.

[Stephen Philbin]

All hail the holy FSM and his noodly appendage! (Don't you love saying that! ;) )

BTW David Harrison, nice comp!

Though the choice of OS does seem rather daft. lol

[David Harrison]

BTW David Harrison, nice comp!I thank-you. :D

Though the choice of OS does seem rather daft. lolI'm gonna take a wild guess that you don't mean SUSE. But if you have a gfx card that can eat games for breakfast then there's no point in not running Windows, ya know? ;)

What I wouldn't give for an Asus A8N-SLi Premium, an AMD Athlon X2 4800+ and two BFG 7800 GTX's though... (for those of you keeping count that's £1,468.52)

[omnicity]

What kind of case are you using that has room for 9 hard discs?

[David Harrison]

It's the blue Coolermaster Stacker (the old version not the new version) with side window. There are 3 4for3 modules in it and I have 3 HDD's in each module, except for the top one which has only 2 HDD's and a floppy disc drive, then I have the 40Gb HDD in a 5.25" bay and a CD ROM drive just above that.

All of the SATA connectors have blue LED's in them and there's also a blue neon cold cathode at the top of the case. All of the SATA cabling is blue UV-reactive (that includes the power cables too) however I've not put a UV cold cathode in yet.

[MstrBob]

Nicely skewed graph, (is that meant to be a logarithmic scale along the bottom?) but dubious figures. Even if we discount national influences, I think you will find that there are rather more than 17 pirates operational in the far east, the med and the carribbean! Besides, if we ever hit zero Pirates, then the problem will stop getting worse, so no need to worry.

Do not attempt to understand his Noodly ways! He has by far the larger meatballs...

[wamboid]

RHS, were you lucky enough to get in on this?
Gas Price Mistake in Lincoln, Nebraska (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051010/ap_on_fe_st/cheap_gas)

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

crazy thing

[bringerofnight]

2.45 here this is awesome cuz my uncle owns a gas station and lets my parents get it for a discount

[bringerofnight]

ure all lucky
Germany 3.75
France 4.50
China 5.00
Russia 6.50
Netherlands 7.00
U.S.A 2.75
and you think we got it bad

[LiLcRaZyFuZzY]

actually in germany it's between €4.90 and €5.30 a gallon ($5.90 and $6.40 a gallon)
--
a gallon being 3.785411784 L, hehe :p

[rhsunderground]

RHS, were you lucky enough to get in on this?
Gas Price Mistake in Lincoln, Nebraska (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051010/ap_on_fe_st/cheap_gas)
:eek: :eek: :eek:

i didn't hear about that! oh, that's too bad. i could use cheap stuff.

[wamboid]

ure all lucky
Germany 3.75
France 4.50
China 5.00
Russia 6.50
Netherlands 7.00
U.S.A 2.75
and you think we got it bad
It's all relative. The extra price is mostly taxes that is spent on things by those governments that our government doesn't do for us. For example, I enjoyed the health care system while I lived in the Netherlands. Now I pay higher insurance rates rather than higher gas prices. Many of my expenses went down once I moved back home, but so did my paycheck.

Sorry, didn't mean to start up this debate again as it's been covered in this and other threads, calmly, and sometimes not so calmly. (Where's Jeff been lately?)

[WebJoel]

It's anywhere from 97-cents to $1.04 per litre here in Toronto (/litre price X 3.8 = "gallon price", so $1.04/litre = $3.95 per gallon).

Those 'vegetable fuel conversions' look interesting... Basically, it is used vegetable oil as commonly used in restaurants for deep-frying their haddock, etc.
It is strained by the end-user to remove fish particles, etc., and the 'conversion' is uber-easy... basically, internal combustion engines CAN RUN on this with no modifications. The engine has to be at full-warmth, and the vegetable oil has to be 'pre-warmed', and it injects into the engine in the usual way. It burns cleaner, less pollution (-I am told that the exhaust smells slightly of French Fries!).
The biggest drawback is the straining facility you'd need, and the secondary fuel tank installation in/on your car... You'd be better off doing a Propane conversion. At least, those are smaller and the 'tank' of propane in about the size of a 5-gallon gas can... Easily fits into your trunk.

Back in the late 70's, I used to play around with gasoline saving devices, -constructs of varying complexity to increase the MPG of carbuerated automobiles.
Several of my builds increased the mileage a few MPG, a fewer still, doubled the mileage. At one point I was getting between 23 and 27 MPG from a car that formerly would barely get 10 or 12 MPG highway mileage. -Hardly sounds impressive now, 23-27 MPG, but in the mid-70s during the 'oil crisis', it was impressive.
I was just out of high school, working part-time at a grocery store and delivering two competitor's newspapers in my local township (475+ newspapers to deliver, one day per week on different days), and picking up earthworms at night to sell to a local Bait Shop for 30-cents/dozen (-one night I picked up 116-DOZEN worms over the course of a 5-hour 'pick'... -it was a good night!).

Back to gasoline-saving conversions though: on such a shoestring budget, I could not afford to build devices that I knew about, patents discovered by doing Patent Searches under the Federal Freedom of Information Act. Some devices, like http://www.rexresearch.com/pogue/1pogue.htm where un-attainable, but there was the 'streamlined' "Covey Carbuerator", built by a Texan whom was publishing how-to reports in the 80's. I started this project several times, got one built and 'tested' it briefly and had some results, but fearful of long-term damage to my engine (due to my limited income, any damage would be ruinous to me then!), I abandoned further research.

Then, fuel-injection came about, and these 'Pogue/Covey' devices are not really compatible (imo) with fuel injection (and Catalytic Convertors) due to the computer sensors that detect changes in exhaust ratios, and would defeat the purpose by way of over-compensation.

*sigh*...

[wamboid]

Amazingly, here it is 2 years later and I paid $2.71 yesterday. It seemed high at the time, but looking back at this thread, it's not so bad. In fact, a little cheaper than back then.

[potterd64]

You people from 2005 think you have it so bad with your gas prices approaching 3 dollars. I'll give you all good tip from the future, invest all your money in Apple and Nintendo! By the time 2008 comes around you'll be rich and wont be worried about gas prices anymore.

[scragar]

UK close to hitting £5/gallon now, which given current exhange rate(2.02122) is just shy of $10/gallon, how dare you complain about your costs being high(and we are soon going to be paying an extra 2% on that...).