When it comes to website design and development these days, there is a wide range of both individuals and businesses that claim to be able to "solve your web development problems"...
So how does one go about distinguishing between your best friend's brother or nephew and a professional development firm?
The answer is both obvious and complex. The obvious answer is professionalism and experience. The complex answer is much more emotional than rational.
What do you tell your friend's nephew when he says that he can put a site together for you for next to nothing? It's tough to say no. As a businessperson, you want to get the most bang for your buck. So what if you let the kid put it together, you're saving a bundle - right?
Wrong? The same differences that distinguish a real web development firm from a hobbyist is the level of professionalism. Though it may make no difference to you that your website designer wears sandals everyday and works at a grocery store... the appearance of your website will make a difference to your customers!
If you don't want your website to look like it was done for next to nothing, don't expect to pay next to nothing. You are just going to suffer from the bad taste it will leave in your current and more importantly, your potential customers' minds.
These days, everyone checks out the website of a business they are considering employing services from. We're trained to do it. If your website looks like an amateur put it together, guess what, your business looks like it's run by amateurs.
From visuals to functionality, you can kill a potential business relationship with a bad website just like you can with a dirty store.
Image is everything, don't leave it up to just anyone. Go with a web development firm that is professional while still creative and innovative. Don't be afraid to interview multiple firms. You will realize that they are not all the same... which is why there are so many!
P.S. If you already went with your friend's nephew... start interviewing real web development firms right away!
juicemousezero
10-03-2005, 10:51 PM
I'd agree with you there, mane.
Snitchcat
10-04-2005, 12:53 AM
I would say you also have to look at portfolios, reputations and, if you can, talk to previous customers.
Though seldom, some web hobbyists are better than the professionals. I know a few. And I've seen their portfolios.
In this instance, I'd probably go for someone I know and whose work I know, versus an unknown. IMO, it's a trust issue in many cases. (^_^)
NetNerd85
10-04-2005, 01:30 AM
I don't agree. Although looking at samples of someone’s work is a must do.
Wether you are a hobbyist, firm or freelancer you must have knowledge of marketing, sales, publishing, design, programming and the list goes on.
A website can always be improved, no matter who develops it.
As a web developer, you create what the customer wants. You can guide them to what you believe are the right decisions but you do not create what you think their business needs.
Professional? That is for the customer to decide, not you. I'm sick of web developers thinking they rule the world. Just do your job and stop preaching.
Btw, what makes your business so special?
Snitchcat
10-04-2005, 01:45 AM
Professional? That is for the customer to decide, not you. I'm sick of web developers thinking they rule the world. Just do your job and stop preaching.
Btw, what makes your business so special?
I considered many responses to this. I chose this one:
Your post struck me as rude, belligerent and uncalled for. I expressed an opinion; if you do not agree with it, say so Without the accusations.
What exactly do you think I do for a living?
NetNerd85
10-04-2005, 05:53 AM
I wasn't talking to you dude lol... settle down.
Compguy Pete
10-04-2005, 10:40 AM
I think the point is really being missed here based on the threads starting post...
Because I also run into this all the time! Where I'll be talking to someone about there business and the website comes into topic and they tell me that their son or nephew or a buddies cousin "WHO KNOWS COMPUTERS" did it.
So now I'm only guessing here but I believe that 3DD ran into this and perhaps did not get business that he could have normally based on rational business of picking based on skills vs. nepotism or "PERCIVED cost".
I've ran into many cases where had they called me to do the work it would have been cheaper than the guys buddy's cousin.
On a slightly related topic Has anyone ran into a client who has had a site built by those folks who sell "Market America"?
madddidley
10-04-2005, 10:59 AM
When it comes to website design and development these days, there is a wide range of both individuals and businesses that claim to be able to "solve your web development problems"...
So how does one go about distinguishing between your best friend's brother or nephew and a professional development firm?
The answer is both obvious and complex. The obvious answer is professionalism and experience. The complex answer is much more emotional than rational.
What do you tell your friend's nephew when he says that he can put a site together for you for next to nothing? It's tough to say no. As a businessperson, you want to get the most bang for your buck. So what if you let the kid put it together, you're saving a bundle - right?
Wrong? The same differences that distinguish a real web development firm from a hobbyist is the level of professionalism. Though it may make no difference to you that your website designer wears sandals everyday and works at a grocery store... the appearance of your website will make a difference to your customers!
If you don't want your website to look like it was done for next to nothing, don't expect to pay next to nothing. You are just going to suffer from the bad taste it will leave in your current and more importantly, your potential customers' minds.
These days, everyone checks out the website of a business they are considering employing services from. We're trained to do it. If your website looks like an amateur put it together, guess what, your business looks like it's run by amateurs.
From visuals to functionality, you can kill a potential business relationship with a bad website just like you can with a dirty store.
Image is everything, don't leave it up to just anyone. Go with a web development firm that is professional while still creative and innovative. Don't be afraid to interview multiple firms. You will realize that they are not all the same... which is why there are so many!
P.S. If you already went with your friend's nephew... start interviewing real web development firms right away!
I take it you have your own professional web development firm.
www.maddDidley.com
Snitchcat
10-04-2005, 11:04 AM
I wasn't talking to you dude lol... settle down.
Eh? You're not? Oh. My mistake; I'm sorry.
NetNerd85
10-04-2005, 10:23 PM
I've ran into many cases where had they called me to do the work it would have been cheaper than the guys buddy's cousin.
If you have your own development firm or freelance, you obviously don't charge enough ;)
chrisranjana
10-05-2005, 08:38 AM
It is best to go with someone you already know and someone who will not *ditch* your project if another high paying project comes down the line.
Also it pays to see whether the web developers is certified and has verifiable references of previous clients.
NetNerd85
10-06-2005, 07:11 AM
Being certified has nothing to do with skill.
References and examples of work is all that matter, price shouldn't either unless you're a bad manager :)
Kevey
10-07-2005, 04:44 AM
While I will agree that first impressions count...I don't think it always applies. Look at the news site www.drudgereport.com. 10 million hits in the past 24-hours...this crapfest looks like it was designed by a 4-year old...but I visit it every day.
I think in the end it comes down to content...you can serve up CSS and pretty pictures all day, but if you're not telling me something I want to know than your design skills don't matter. This is more a message for companies than designers...if the company has good content then your CSS and pretty pictures will make it the bomb.
3DD--your site is very cool BTW...nice work.
buntine
10-07-2005, 07:38 AM
While I will agree that first impressions count...I don't think it always applies. Look at the news site www.drudgereport.com. 10 million hits in the past 24-hours...this crapfest looks like it was designed by a 4-year old...but I visit it every day.
I think in the end it comes down to content...you can serve up CSS and pretty pictures all day, but if you're not telling me something I want to know than your design skills don't matter. This is more a message for companies than designers...if the company has good content then your CSS and pretty pictures will make it the bomb.
3DD--your site is very cool BTW...nice work.
The same is true of MySpace.com. A horribly developed system, but also one of the most popular Web Sites on the planet.
Regards.
Brollachan
10-07-2005, 08:47 AM
In my opinion it is best to see what website a person or company has created in the past. Some 'web hobbyists' are fairly good due to the time they put into their hobby, and some 'professional web developers' can leave a bit to be desired.
Personally I would probably place myself somewhere between the two groups.
winged1
10-07-2005, 10:32 AM
As a professional is defined only by the fact that they exchange income for thier work, that in itself hardly qualifies them as being better than a hobbist. In a culture of templates and tweaks, inovative work that breaks new ground is shared equally by either. Devising unique business solutions is far different than mechanical coding. I'll listen to my aquaintances for new ideas long before I'll hire a professional solution, if at all.
Dramoth
10-07-2005, 12:24 PM
I would say you also have to look at portfolios, reputations and, if you can, talk to previous customers.
Though seldom, some web hobbyists are better than the professionals. I know a few. And I've seen their portfolios.
In this instance, I'd probably go for someone I know and whose work I know, versus an unknown. IMO, it's a trust issue in many cases. (^_^)
Unfortunately... I dont think that some web developers have a portfolio of sites... I have mostly worked on intranet web applications that never see the light of day on the internet and infact, no-one has ever heard of them.
Not having a portfolio doesnt disqualify me from being an extremely skilled developer... it just means that I have nothing on display on the web to showcase my skills.
NetNerd85
10-08-2005, 09:56 PM
Can't you use testimonials from the people you have worked with Dramoth? Surely you can get written references. What about showing screen captures of your intranets? or maybe some functionality?
*shrugs, plently of ways to show your skills ;) Lap-dance maybe?
chong
10-12-2005, 03:30 AM
well, in essence, "content is king" is tautology.
all things being equal, a better designed site is still better than one without any aesthetic and utilitarian sense.
But clients have the wierdest taste, I'll tell you. You can try to persuade them to think your way, but many of them will still insist on knowing whats right or wrong for themselves.
Snitchcat
10-14-2005, 12:28 AM
But clients may truly know what's right or wrong -- particularly for their businesses. They have to know their industry and how their customers operate. While the web designer has a wealth of knowledge about design, do they also have that same spectrum of knowledge about the client's industry and its players?
chong
10-14-2005, 12:40 AM
well, I believe basic design guidelines such as the use of negative space and a good user flow would hold through whatever industries we are looking at.
All too often, clients tell me, can squeeze more text in? Oh remove that pic, put more text... some white space there, increase the font size to cover it...
It is as if every inch on the site ought to be covered to make their money's worth.
NetNerd85
10-14-2005, 12:56 AM
But clients may truly know what's right or wrong -- particularly for their businesses. They have to know their industry and how their customers operate. While the web designer has a wealth of knowledge about design, do they also have that same spectrum of knowledge about the client's industry and its players?
Perhaps you should read up on business. More than 75% of businesses fail with-in the first 5 years do to a lack of planning. Most businesses do not even develop a business plan. Most take it as it comes. Unless you have something to aim at, you will never hit the target.
Web developers tend to work for everyone which is a bit of a no-no, you should focus on a niche. Pick an industry and stay will it, that way you can learn and develop your business skills. You'll benefit your clients and yourself by doing this.
lonogod
10-14-2005, 04:22 PM
From my experience I can say that every business that I've ever done sites for had an idea of what their site should be like. By the time I list their options to them they have an entirely new idea for the site. Businesses don't always know what they want until you tell them what they want...in a sense.
When I build a site for a company I let them know what are good design techniques, and then I try to convince them to use their original ideas with the new information I give them. This usually produces great results. I'm not going to say it always works because everyone knows that it doesn't always work that way.
Sometimes the companies go to someone that will give them exactly what they wanted from the beginning. I can remember 3 of my experiences that did that and their business failed within a year or two. NetNerd85 is definately right on that point.
Businesses need to have a direction but they don't need to be stiff as a board about things such as marketing their business. The web is just one of a million ways to market their business. They may be experts about some areas of marketing but they can't know about everything. I think that's really why web designers are so valuable. We can let them know what is correct in our business just as they tell us what is correct in their's.
lonogod
poiuy
10-14-2005, 06:12 PM
I think in the end it comes down to content...
Here here brother. You can have an amateurish looking site and still make money or get hits.
I've seen some sites on the net made out of someones garage that make some pro sites look VERY bad.
I say if you run into a situation where a buddy or family member hits you up give them two weeks to a month to show you an example of what they can do for you. If your not happy then maybe break it to the lightly that you're going to a big firm.
Oh yeah maybe buy them good graphics software like Photoshop or something if they don't have it as payment. I find most of the time the only difference between an amateur and a pro is a budget. The talents and potential's are usually equal
NetNerd85
10-14-2005, 09:55 PM
IMO the only sort of website that needs the eye catching, mouth dropping, drooling over graphics are the websites that are more like online brochures which are fishing for consumer contact and sales. Rather than the websites that build trust, offer newsletters and all that other jazz.
Agree / Disagree?
Ubik
11-05-2005, 01:09 PM
I've been in the situation where I have developed many many company intranet sites, following alertbox's usability guidelines, and building powerful applications including:
Issue tracking
Employee Time tracking
call center applications
professional performance appraisal tools
knowledge base
interactive diagnostic tools for troubleshooting tech problems
commercial backend applications
SOX 404 compliant applications
calendar and time management applications
etc etc etc
Anyway, I decided that it's about time for me to get serious about developing outside this scope, and I have had lot's of problems trying to get business because I have lots of experience, but all of the applications I've built are behind corporate firewalls, and contain confidential information, so I cannot show my work to anyone.
Also, I have a big problem trying to develop my own website. I have no idea what to say, and the site up there now looks like crap becuase I can't settle on a design. Completely shoe-makers son syndrome (where the son has no shoes).
Hope that help you.
WessonInfoSys
11-06-2005, 12:18 AM
While you're occupied with a difficult client that is late on payments, you could be missing out on some good opportunities that would not only improve your mood but put some fat in that wallet.
Don't be afraid to throw away a sick fish. Be pro-active about it and start forming a policy that gradually distills into some harder and faster rules based on the kind of potential client you're in discussions with.
A pretty standard one for smaller projects is half down, half on delivery.
If they can't or are unwilling to do that they're either broke or don't trust you. Let 'em go I say. Make room for someone else.
Mr Initial Man
11-10-2005, 11:58 AM
I know a guy who let his son build him a website, since the kid charged him the same as any labour ($10 an hour). The thing is, the kid knew his stuff, and gave his dad a very nice website. What are the differences between professional and hobbyist?
It's sometimes impossible to tell.
kelly23
11-10-2005, 12:48 PM
A lot depends on the complexity of the project and the goal of the web site. There's often a lot more to a site than just the design which is all that the client sees.
Usability, cross-browser compatibility, advanced functionality, clean code, search engine optimization, search engine marketing, plus a multitude of other things besides just design are what determine if a site is successful on the web or not.
Many professionals don't cover all areas so it's very unlikely (although not impossible) that a hobbyist would be able to deliver the same overall quality, even though it may "look great".
I definitely think a site should be attractive and pleasing to the eye, but in reality, its relative importance in the site being successful or not is really less than many other aspects.
Unfortunately, most prospective clients don't know the right questions to ask.
rch10007
11-14-2005, 09:24 AM
Professional or hobbyist, you should know the business you build for. Companies look to you for Web advice. If you spend enough time on the Web just looking around (I know you do!) then you are aware of the latest trends and you form an opinion of your likes and dislikes of a website.
However, it isn't about what YOU like! It's about what the company that hired YOU needs! Do you analyze their business structure or offer suggestions/concerns about the latest fads? How about security, accessibility, design, CMS, CSS, PHP or .NET, Linux v. MS!!! The client isn't concerned for all the terms that you, developers, know by heart.
There are concerned with hitting a target audience. This may not be a customer, btw!
What is necessary to acheive their goals? Most times, they won't even know. You, as a developer, have to inform them. Help them to establish their vision in the field you chose to work! The virtual one! You are the master, they pay you for more than skill, they pay you for trust, knowledge, and most importantly, your integrity!
IMO, that is the differnce between a professional and a hobbyist. (If it isn't spelled out for you, you're probably just a programmer, lol.)
Snitchcat
11-15-2005, 11:59 PM
Perhaps you should read up on business. More than 75% of businesses fail with-in the first 5 years do to a lack of planning. Most businesses do not even develop a business plan. Most take it as it comes. Unless you have something to aim at, you will never hit the target.
I was merely suggesting a different viewpoint -- as is the case in discussions. Critiquing the idea or disagreeing with it is great. I am offended at your post's suggested criticism of me, the writer of the post, and at its suggestion that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Perhaps your post should have asked me what I do Before it suggested I read up on business: I have been successfully running my own business for a while; I am also a marketing/business professional in a full-time job; and I am an author. Without business skills, knowledge or experience, and attainable, quantifiable goals and measurable plans, I would not be successful at what I do.
That said, I do agree that a web designer should choose an industry to specialise in and that they need to be knowledgeable about it.
I'm thinking in terms of the layout and design preferred by that industry's players, the players' target audience(s), and the basic needs that apply to all the players (e.g., type of company/industry content, including terminology). Requirements specific to an individual company would be dealt with as they come.
On the other hand, there is a lot to gain from not specialising in an industry. The learning experience and scope of work is greater. It also offers the designer a chance to explore and experiment in the different industries, etc., before they decide to niche.
However, an alternative exists to the single specialisation or the non-specialisation: it would be matter of investment to be competent and good at two or three industries -- related or non-related is another issue. This avenue would help the designer stay lucrative while providing a source of ideas, etc., for each industry.
mr_anderson
11-16-2005, 12:16 AM
i would have to agree with Brollachan
there are some web hobbyists out there who outdo professional companies and are alot cheaper but sometimes when you cant find a very good enthusiest u have to go with a companie although my first choice whould be a hobbyist
NetNerd85
11-24-2005, 12:55 AM
I was merely suggesting a different viewpoint -- as is the case in discussions. Critiquing the idea or disagreeing with it is great. I am offended at your post's suggested criticism of me, the writer of the post, and at its suggestion that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Perhaps your post should have asked me what I do Before it suggested I read up on business: I have been successfully running my own business for a while; I am also a marketing/business professional in a full-time job; and I am an author. Without business skills, knowledge or experience, and attainable, quantifiable goals and measurable plans, I would not be successful at what I do.
That said, I do agree that a web designer should choose an industry to specialise in and that they need to be knowledgeable about it.I apologise I did not mean to have offended you. That was not my intention :( I was trying to state the fact that a lot of businesses fail due to poor management, so the client may not know what he is talking about. I did not point that out enough and had to read my own post a couple times to remember my reason for posting :o It was not at all a personal attack or any of that kind.
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