Web "Designer" Rant

[KDLA]

I just finished reviewing 86 websites for a publication. I couldn't believe how bad the coding for the majority was -- not to mention that the sites lacked cross-browser compatibility, accessibility, search engine optimization, etc.

What aggravated me, though, was that these sites weren't designed by the staff of the organizations, but contracted out to "web designers," designers that charged them a good rate for these professional services, which were really relegated to sticking an institution's name in a pre-existing template.

What aggravated me even more was that some of these sites weren't even FUNCTIONAL, i.e., forms that didn't work, malfunctioning menus, etc.The organizations just learned to "live with it," due to their lack of understanding on how to get things fixed.

I know that each organization is accountable to some degree. BUT...

Do you find it annoying that people with a little spare cash -- enough to buy a version of Front Page or Dreamweaver -- are allowed to call themselves web designers?

Do you think that these types of "designers" make it hard for "good" designers to flourish?

Do you think that, sometime in the future, some sort of certification process would be good? Something similar, maybe, to MS's Certified Engineer program.

KDLA

[Kevey]

I see alot of bad design by "designers" too. There is a lot of shoddy work out there. The thing that gets me is that the designer of a horrible site will put a "designed by" link at the bottom of their customers page...i think it serves as a warning to others :)

I don't design stuff for others, but if I did I would take the time to learn the craft so I could provide a quality service. I don't think they make it hard for good designers, but they do lower the bar on what people think is acceptable/functional/accessible design...most people just don't know any better because they haven't seen better.

[johneva]

I agree all the way with you there fella.

I find it very annoying that people make out like they are pro's at something, when as you say all they are capable of is chucking a few page together in Front Page or Dreamweaver.

Yes I think there should be a well know certificate for web design.

The other problem comes were you have diffrent sections of web design like graphic design, web design, web development and SEO.

Just cos someone can make pretty pages dont make them a good at making websites, and just cos someone can code up a page well dont mean they are good at making websites.

[KDLA]

I agree with you, Kevey.

I guess it's just aggravating as heck. I work as a consultant to 120 organizations, and attempting to educate them on what a "good" designer is, is taxing. I spend more time helping them fix problems than doing my actual job of giving them new ideas for expanding their sites. Ugh.... :rolleyes:

[KDLA]

Yeah, johneva -

I recently had a consultation with an organization about poor usage statistics. They have a big site (50 pages or so, which is big for a non-profit). They just couldn't figure out why no one was visiting the site. I did a quick "View Source," and found that not a strip of metatags/metadata was in there. They'd been paying for this site for a year, and the designer never admitted that he hadn't put that in there, and WORST OF ALL never attempted to fix it.

KDLA

[johneva]

Yeah, johneva -

I recently had a consultation with an organization about poor usage statistics. They have a big site (50 pages or so, which is big for a non-profit). They just couldn't figure out why no one was visiting the site. I did a quick "View Source," and found that not a strip of metatags/metadata was in there. They'd been paying for this site for a year, and the designer never admitted that he hadn't put that in there, and WORST OF ALL never attempted to fix it.

KDLA

That is just increadable but yet at the same time quite common too.

It is a very sad state of affairs really.

[chazzy]

Unfortunately, this is common state. Companies would rather pay for those nice flashy things that only work in 1 browser rather than have a functional design that works in all browsers.

I'm not saying you can't make a flashy cross browser design, but why go through the extra work if no one cares?

[Charles]

[W]hy go through the extra work if no one cares?Ask the people at Target. They're currently being sued for their bad web site.

[chazzy]

Ask the people at Target. They're currently being sued for their bad web site.

Well, adding vision impaired compatibility should be a basic thing that would have been considered when the project came through and should have been tested accordingly.

[dmcv.co.uk]

I am a designer & i find myself goin to interviews for jobs recently Where the Adds bee WEB DESIGNER! But i get there & there like oh u dont no php, asp, la la la!

I am yet to find a person that is a great designer & coder! ur eather on or the other!
Designers can maybe code alittle venturing in to php, asp, css, xhtml, so on! * codes may try to design sites but it just dont work!!!

I'm looking on this site & i see alot of people that are very good at css & coding but as for design, layout & usability of sites posted in the review area well i can't belive people get payed to produce that crap! It gives web designers a bad name!

[BuezaWebDev]

I am a designer & i find myself goin to interviews for jobs recently Where the Adds bee WEB DESIGNER! But i get there & there like oh u dont no php, asp, la la la!

I am yet to find a person that is a great designer & coder! ur eather on or the other!
Designers can maybe code alittle venturing in to php, asp, css, xhtml, so on! * codes may try to design sites but it just dont work!!!

I'm looking on this site & i see alot of people that are very good at css & coding but as for design, layout & usability of sites posted in the review area well i can't belive people get payed to produce that crap! It gives web designers a bad name!

Well, I think they were looking for a person with a few more skills, that's all. You shouldn't give up, just try and learn those valuable skills (PHP, ASP.NET, etc). You can't go wrong with a bigger skill pool. :)

[dmcv.co.uk]

No Sorry u miss understood! i am learning alittle php & asp & have limited knowlage of them at presant!

Basicly i am goin to interviews were companys advertise for a web designer When what they actualy are looking for is a web programer!!!!

My skill pool is 4ever extending! but i am a web designer not a programer!

But thank you for the support

www.dmcv.co.uk/test << check this out im working on a new portfolio site for my self!

Dave

[KDLA]

Let's try to keep this thread on topic....

How would you rate these, in order of importance for a web designer:

- Graphic design knowledge
- HTML coding
- Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
- PHP coding
- JS coding
- Flash knowledge

[NogDog]

Let's try to keep this thread on topic....

How would you rate these, in order of importance for a web designer:

- Graphic design knowledge
- HTML coding
- Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
- PHP coding
- JS coding
- Flash knowledge
First you have to define your particular job description for "web designer", since it has different definitions for different people/organizations. That definition will then likely make the ranking fairly self-evident.

[KDLA]

First you have to define your particular job description for "web designer", since it has different definitions for different people/organizations. That definition will then likely make the ranking fairly self-evident.
Average Joe Webmaster, the local guy that advertises for local businesses, churches, non-profits, etc.

[johneva]

HTML coding
Graphic design knowledge
Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
PHP coding
JS coding
Flash knowledge

[KDLA]

It's interesting that you chose that order. Would you say a BAD designer inverts that list? Seems that most of the "bad" sites I review, see on "Web Pages that Suck," or find through my consulting job go nuts with Flash and JS.

[Dark Dragon]

How would you rate these, in order of importance for a web designer:

- Graphic design knowledge
- HTML coding
- Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
- PHP coding
- JS coding
- Flash knowledge

On a scale of 1-5....

Graphic design knowledge.....4.5

HTML coding.....4.5

Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility....3

PHP coding......1.5

JS coding...1.5

Flash knowledge.....1.5 - 2.5


I have seen business websites that use PHP, JavaScript and the whole nine yards and I had to leave because it was non-functional yet some others using HTML, CSS and basics worked like a charm.

What really cheeses me off is sites wasting JavaScript to do simple things like going to the next page..since I have a couple of ad-blocers..I do not like having my comp flooded with adds just to view a web site...

But design, to me, is essential....I prefer a website that is simple yet easy to read and easy to navigate...this means having a button that tells you, in so many words, that clicking it takes you to, say, the products page or their page denoting rates or whathaveyou.....

Naturally what is the most important is testing..even if it is a site for fun...

I even had a college instructor blithely tell me how he didn't feel he should make sure his site works or not if he isn't making money off of it.

I then explained to him why I should then even bother visiting any of the sites he had already posted if he doesn't bother testing them...why should I visit any of his future sites-for-profit if he cannot even make sure his leisure sites work? Maybe I'd like to visit them but if I cannot easily see content or there are missing links, images and so on....why should I later take his skills seriously...know what I am saying?

I make a lot of "fun" sites for my own use but I also have enough "pride" in my meager skills that I test my site and make sure all the links work...all the images and files are there....it is a type of common courtesy in the web making arena...you don't have to use PHP, RSS, VBasic and all that..you need to make sure the basics are working before you jump into anything else.

(Whew) Sorry for ranting... :o

[BuezaWebDev]

HTML coding
Graphic design knowledge
Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
PHP coding
JS coding
Flash knowledge

^^I agree with this list :p

[ProWeb]

Where is the line between Web Design and Developer?
Most web designers will have some experience with JS even if its only for simple things like rollovers and stuff.

I say this, if your a developer goto w3schools.com, select any three topics be it HTML, CSS, and ASP (they were my choices) and take the Tests. Score above 17 out of twenty in each and your a Developer! (though i expect this forums readers to get at 20/20 for each.)

Also w3schools do offer a certification exam!

[ProWeb]

HTML coding
Graphic design knowledge
Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
PHP coding
JS coding
Flash knowledge

Why stop there...

Working knowledge of DNS/IIS etc
Knowledge of SQL (design database and queries)

[johneva]

Why stop there...

Working knowledge of DNS/IIS etc
Knowledge of SQL (design database and queries)

Well yeah but they were not in the list I was asked to put into an order.

[KDLA]

I even had a college instructor blithely tell me how he didn't feel he should make sure his site works or not if he isn't making money off of it.

I then explained to him why I should then even bother visiting any of the sites he had already posted if he doesn't bother testing them...why should I visit any of his future sites-for-profit if he cannot even make sure his leisure sites work? Maybe I'd like to visit them but if I cannot easily see content or there are missing links, images and so on....why should I later take his skills seriously...know what I am saying?

Sounds like the typical, academic pompous *ss.

I guess that's sort of the delineator with web design: whether or not the designer sees past him/herself. I'm always amazed when I read "the page looks fine on my computer... what's the problem?" It's this one-dimensionality that creates really stinky websites.

I've got to credit this forum for getting me outside of my cubicle, my agency, my state, etc.

[KDLA]

Why stop there...

Working knowledge of DNS/IIS etc
Knowledge of SQL (design database and queries)

Yeah, those are good. I was just concentrating on what Average Joe Designer would have to work with.

[johneva]

It's interesting that you chose that order. Would you say a BAD designer inverts that list? Seems that most of the "bad" sites I review, see on "Web Pages that Suck," or find through my consulting job go nuts with Flash and JS.


Yep your very right when people are new and dont know good web design/development they go for the pretty looking things which Flash and Javascripts provide. (I did on my first site too)

Anybody can add a few Javascripts or a few Flash objects and it looks good if used correctly (which it normaly isnt).

With even just a small amount of experiance you soon relise that they are just a waste of time mostly, and you are far better of making a good design that works propley and is easy for all to use.

[poiuy]

I don't even think Flash needs to make the list unless you make those games and funny joke thingys. I rank knowledge of hacking Windows Solitare to win every time higher than Flash ;)

Anywho just to be the defender of the bad coders and WYSIWYG coders a lot of the time you get people who want 10,000 hour websites for $200. You get what you pay for in some cases. I've dropped projects dead in their tracks for lack of payment or higher website goals *****ions but they were not willing to pay for them. (The guys who charge and arm and leg and can't even put in meta tags in is just flat out wrong)

Not to mention the "html/xhtml/css/php/lmnop" world is changing so fast some companies threw out a couple grand a couple years ago and don't want to throw out more $$ just to keep up with deprecated tags and reformat everything to CSS.

I'm also a firm believer in that a websites success doesn't always rely on how great the coding is but rather how many visitors 1 you can get and 2 bow many can be turned into customers (or what ever your goals is). You could create a site in Frontpage 97 and still have a "succesfull" website - just not in a webdesigners eyes (or some browsers for that matter).

[johneva]

I'm also a firm believer in that a websites success doesn't always rely on how great the coding is but rather how many visitors 1 you can get and 2 bow many can be turned into customers (or what ever your goals is). You could create a site in Frontpage 97 and still have a "succesfull" website - just not in a webdesigners eyes (or some browsers for that matter).


Exactly though if some browsers dont like the site you could be missing out on visitors(Potential Customers). The site might be doing really well but it could then do better.

Also good coding helps with SEO which inturn helps with getting visitors. So good coding does matter and I stick to what I said to say it is the most important.

But yes your right success of a site does come down to is it doing the job it was intended to do to the best of its ability.

I also agree with the comment about Flash really I am not keen on most Flash work either. Saying that though I have also seen some incredable work done with Flash too.

[KDLA]

I included Flash because many of the websites put in this forum are Flash-based. I'm not saying if they're generally good or bad, but it seems that, for some people, that's the only way to go. Sort of the Be All, End All of website design.

I see what you're saying about non-payment. But, seems to me, that if you know your craft well, it shouldn't take that much time to maintain a good site: whether the client is an idiot or not. I mean, it is partly the fault of the client, but it does rest with the designer, too.

I agree about good coding for this reason: I inherited a site with REALLY bad coding. I spent more time fixing it, rather than improving. If the coding is good in the first place, passing the site from designer to designer will be much easier, and in the end, save EVERYONE time, trouble, and MONEY.

During some of my consultations, I've had some pretty horrific coding shown to me. My first thought is: get the heck out of here, it isn't worth it! Designers that leave those types of messes make it hard on everyone. I don't want to tell the client that they've been screwed; I sure don't want to indenture myself to fix it; and I don't want their site to suck for infinity if it doesn't get fixed.

It creates a real bind.

[poiuy]

I should state I agree 100% that you should code a website and keep it as up to date as possible.

I also should state I think Flash is awesome and it has it's place in the Internet realm. Me personally I have no use for it. You spend so much time designing that it's just doesn't make sense to me.

However you bring up a interesting angle. Keeping it up to date can make it real easy for someone to take over your work and then your out a job!! That's it I'm adding all the deprecated tags and junk I can back into my site :D

OT Why was a-m-b-itttions(sp) partly censored? I can figure out that out?

[KDLA]

[Good strategy -- maybe I'll get famous by getting your site on "web pages that suck!" :D]

Actually, my angle was towards a standards-compliant coding. Something everyone can understand, thus design toward. The downfall for that (besides your great strategy) is that it takes TIME to learn why things happen. It certainly wouldn't help the WYSIWYG market.

[chazzy]

Javascript based development is the future of webdesign. Either accept it now or you'll be stuck behind.

At least that's my approach.

[johneva]

Javascript based development is the future of webdesign. Either accept it now or you'll be stuck behind.

At least that's my approach.


I know it is serverside but I thought PHP was better for 99% of things.

Why is Javascript so special then?

What about these people that dont have Javascript even turned on?

[chazzy]

Javascript is client side.
To limit yourself to one technology closes the door on much that other technologies can do. Javascript can be mixed with ASP, Java, PHP, C#, etc. It's all about the client when you look at java script. To say that PHP is better than Javascript is like saying that cars are better than air. They perform 2 completely different functions - cars transport you and air keeps you alive. Javascript controls how your client (in our case, typically web browsers) interacts with what is served from the server. You can't rely on javascript, but you can benefit from it. Use it to build faster, smoother web applications - make Control + Enter submit your form, use mouse over items to display some help information, use certain buttons to add a new row to your MRU/D forms.

I understand why people turn off java script, but i can't stand it. You have to build your applications in a way that benefits when present, but does not hinder when not.

[johneva]

Ah right yep I get ya.

[BuezaWebDev]

Javascript based development is the future of webdesign. Either accept it now or you'll be stuck behind.

At least that's my approach.

Agreed :p

[dmcv.co.uk]

Reffering back to the list what order do u put the following in!!!

U guys are basicly all coders that think they have design skills... LOL

[BuezaWebDev]

Reffering back to the list what order do u put the following in!!!

U guys are basicly all coders that think they have design skills... LOL

Actually, I love designing a lot more than coding. Above designing websites, for developing an application, I love creating Physical Database Designs. <3 MS Visio.

[KDLA]

I was a graphic artist that happened to be promoted to web coordinator....

[johneva]

And I am just a nobody!

I have only been playing around with web design for 6 months. I have only been using a computer for about a year now.

Though yep I have no design background at all never did art much at school or nothing. Yep I find the coding side easier than the design side of things.

Though I am not much good at that yet being so new like.

[dmcv.co.uk]

Most important things in website design & development are Accesability, understanding of how to navigate the user through a site with ease & the least amount of hassle, understanding of colour pallets so u can make things stand out to a user viewing the page at first glanse! i can go on! basicly its not just a case of who can design & who can code! u need full understanding of above before u go anywhere!

Dave

[johneva]

Most important things in website design & development are Accesability, understanding of how to navigate the user through a site with ease & the least amount of hassle, understanding of colour pallets so u can make things stand out to a user viewing the page at first glanse! i can go on! basicly its not just a case of who can design & who can code! u need full understanding of above before u go anywhere!

Dave

I agree they are very important skills but you carnt say they are the most important thing as with out other skills you carnt make a website anyways.

[BuezaWebDev]

Most important things in website design & development are Accesability, understanding of how to navigate the user through a site with ease & the least amount of hassle, understanding of colour pallets so u can make things stand out to a user viewing the page at first glanse! i can go on! basicly its not just a case of who can design & who can code! u need full understanding of above before u go anywhere!

Dave

I partially disagree with you--A coder doesn't need to know about web accessibility because they work on the back-end (database, and programming behind the webpage). Take for example, a Java (server pages) developer doesn't need to know about accessibility when all he has to do is develop an authentication class, or database access class. Also, if they're trying to develop a web service (remote procedural calls), they'll need to know XML and SOAP (RPC).

As you can see, a coder has a limitless array of technologies to work with.

[KDLA]

Not necessarily -- a coder DOES need to have some idea of accessibility, such as knowing that onkeypress and onmouseclick need to do the same thing: creating alternate ways of accessing the information.

[ProWeb]

Agreed, Coders HAVE TO understand accessibility issues. They have to know that outputting data in a nice way helps readability, rather than just dumping huge amounts of data soley seperated by commas. (my favourite).

Hell, imagine what half of the ecommerce sites out there would look like if a coder just dragged data from sql and never bothered to format it.

on another note
Just like coding, design is something that is learnt. You can learn either. Gfx Designers seem to have a stigma that presents them as artistic untouchables. We aint painting with Van Gough or painting portraits of Danial Boone(that ones for you KDLA)!
Anyone with a copy of paint shop pro/photoshop (EVEN A PENCIL AND PAPER) can create nice designs.

[KDLA]

Hey, now, lay off ole Dan. I like his hair....

I agree with you, ProWeb, in part about graphic design. However, I tend to think that you have to have some sort of internal penchant for it: it's not just a thing to be learned. If it were, then all sites would look the same.

[ProWeb]

I cannot draw, with a pencil, also I have never had an artistic flair.
Yet I can produce a good looking website. But not when I first started. Hence I stick to my guns and say its possible to learn good design.

However I think we can seperate Artistic skill from Good Design Skills on the note that I cannot draw and my handwriting looks like a 4 year olds! Both are traits of a coder. (i think)

[JayM]

The ideology that one can't be a good coder and designer seems to be ever growing. I think the problem is coders focus too much time coding and pay very little practise to design. The same concept applies designers. To be a good web designer, in my opinion, you need to find the balance between both.

Regarding the original discussion, I think Flash, if used intelligently, could have a profound effect on a web designers career. When people think of Flash, they often think of those websites with a splash page, that open a new window that you can't resize, with music in your face, etc. (I think you know which ones i'm talking about). However, if you use flash in certain places of your page, such as a banner, or in a small "about us" presentation, it could really spice up your webpage.

If you look at it from a company's perspective, who knows nothing about web design, which one would you choose? A WD firm that develops static pages, or a company that develops dynamic content? Probably the latter.

The key here is moderation. Don't make your whole site out of flash, but adding flash content in certain areas of your site can make it more pleasing. Also, if you look at it from a marketing standpoint, it could also increase interest in your work.

I have been a web designer for 4 years, and I have been learning flash/actionscript for 2 months now. I finally realize that flash is an essential skill of a web designer.

[KDLA]

JayM -

You're right about Flash. The definitive delineation between a good and bad designer is that an aspect, such as Flash, should remain just that: an aspect of a webpage. Problem is, there are lots of bad designers out there that just rely on Flash. (I, one of the dial-up dinosaurs still out there, LOATHE flash when surfing the net at home.)

It's this one-dimensionality (already referenced earlier in this thread, excellent example being ProWeb's professor) that impacts the success of a website.

Actually, if a company looks at its stats and customer comments, it might notice that dynamic content isn't the way to go. It's just content, in general, that makes a good website.

[JayM]

Actually, if a company looks at its stats and customer comments, it might notice that dynamic content isn't the way to go. It's just content, in general, that makes a good website.

I totally agree with you. The problem is, a lot of companies don't realise this.

[KDLA]

I know. You wouldn't believe how many consultations I've had with this dialogue:
Me: What's the website's mission? Why do you have one?
Them: We just thought it was a good idea to have one. Everyone else does.

So frustrating. Then there are those designers out there that capitalize on that and create these monstrosity sites: great works of art/coding that have absolutely no tie-in with the business. Sort of personal monuments commemorating the designer's abilities: "Designer X was here!"

It's even funnier/sadder when those get featured on "Webpages that Suck."

[JayM]

Relevancy is an important issue with amateur web designers these days. They like to do these great designs they know, but is it relevant to what you're trying to accomplish? Ironically, these great designs look ugly when they don't coincide with the business.

When I worked for a local WD firm, my boss would always review my work and ask myself why am I putting this. Is it necessary? Can we do without it? If you don't have a good enough reason for placing that peice of code or graphic, it would be removed. It's a very efficient way of developement I must say.

[ProWeb]

I don't think every bodies sites would look the same. Thats down to creativity....

[KDLA]

I don't think every bodies sites would look the same. Thats down to creativity....

What are you referring to?

[ProWeb]

I agree with you, ProWeb, in part about graphic design. However, I tend to think that you have to have some sort of internal penchant for it: it's not just a thing to be learned. If it were, then all sites would look the same.

That....bit of a delayed reaction and lack of quote on my part. :)

[ProWeb]

Agreed with all above, Flash is fantastic tool if used corrcetly. Ive seen some dire attempts to create flash headers, banners, buttons and more.

On the note of flash being slow, its not flash that creates the problem its the idiots that will load a 300k image into it without optimization nor cropping it to the size required. Also using actionscript Ive created nice flash movies under 50k! (even made a viral game that was less than 100k with sound, images and scripting).

[KDLA]

That....bit of a delayed reaction and lack of quote on my part. :)

Thanks - I thought it was in reference to that, but didn't want to go off without a doubt.

So, you think creativity is outside of graphic design? Interesting. I guess it is. I always associated with graphic design and creativity with the same portion of the brain. But, that might be the microcosm I work in, rather than a generality.
Those that tend to be good with technology stuff (where I work) seem to lack creativity; those with artistic flair have it. It might be that things have been done in the same way, over such a long period of time, by the techs. that creativity isn't really an employed skill.

[ProWeb]

I have a friend that works in Montreal, he works as part of a team making PS2 games.
He is a hard core programmer, in his job creativity is a must. New more efficient ways of writing code need to produced. New lighting/sound effects are being developed, particle effects and such....

Not going against the techies at your place, but techies CAN be creative too.

Thus, Artistic Flair != Creativity

Great conversation and all but if we get any deeper we are gonna need beer, lots of beer.

[poiuy]

I'll drink to that :D Some of the most creative minds in the world came up with great things while a little booze was running through them throughout history.

Good conversation. Learning a lot listening (reading) different views.

KDLA do you keep refering to webpagesthatsuck.com because there is a LOT of good information on there that ties into a lot of things in this thread.

[dmcv.co.uk]

I have a friend that works in Montreal, he works as part of a team making PS2 games.
He is a hard core programmer, in his job creativity is a must. New more efficient ways of writing code need to produced. New lighting/sound effects are being developed, particle effects and such....

Not going against the techies at your place, but techies CAN be creative too.

Thus, Artistic Flair != Creativity

Great conversation and all but if we get any deeper we are gonna need beer, lots of beer.

Hi, ok where do i start with this! Mmmm ok I worked in a games company & along side coders & artist. To go against your Programmers can be creatve cus they have to code visual effects in a game theory! Thats why there are ARTISTS in the team they tell them the effect & they coders, CODE IT...! The VISUAL creativity is all done by the Artists in the teams same as the usability & navigation through the UI of the game!

Coders can ve creative with code ie, better ways to code make code lighter but they can not be VISUALY creative it is somthing i have never seen in my experiance EVER.

& yers your are right anyone with photoshop or a pencil can draw. But not every one can do it well or as a career!

A designer can learn to code to a limit & a coder can try to design. Simple as

As for the flash comments from other people! Flash can bring a greater visual experiance to browsing sites when used corectly!

OVER & OUT

Dave

[KDLA]

KDLA do you keep refering to webpagesthatsuck.com because there is a LOT of good information on there that ties into a lot of things in this thread.

Yes, however the emphasis is upon seeing the sites, themselves, rather than lots of factual information provided by Flanders. I like that site: it proves that someone's "great" idea can really stink for the rest of the community. It proves that some companies operate with blinders, ignoring the trends that are best for their customers.

The site reminds me of that show, "What Not to Wear" on The Learning Channel: you learn what to wear by seeing a person's bad interpretation of fashion and how many people react negatively to it.

I also like Jakob Nielsen's studies as useit.com.

[Snitchcat]

An interesting and informative thread; lots to learn from it.

Personally, my own list goes in this order:

- Knowledge of Usability/Accessibility/Cross-Browser Compatibility
- HTML coding
- Graphic design knowledge
- PHP coding
- JS coding
- Flash knowledge

The first two should really be parallel. IMO, from the user's view, you need to access information easily, not get lost, and understand what it is you're looking at irregardless of what you're using to view it. But you must also be able to make your code accessible for those users who want to see how you put your page/site together. And, fFor me, point 3 is something you learn as you go.

As far as being a good web designer and coder is concerned, yes, you can be both. And I agree: to do both, you need to find a balance.

[KDLA]

Yeah - it's just recognizing that there needs to be a balance is probably the hardest thing to overcome.

[ProWeb]

Agreed, its the same with anything in life, finding the happy medium.

[KDLA]

I liked your first version better -- WYSIWYG must die!

Although, that statement sounds more Sith than Yoda.

[BrianZ]

This is my first post here but I think this a perfect time to make one.

I have been reluctant to become a "Web Designer" because I know I'm just not that good yet. Sure, I've created a couple of sites for friends and I run a pretty large community but I'll be the first to admit that it's just phpBB and I'm just getting into CSS and have used Dreamweaver for a long time. But I've used tables for alot of my design that I made from scratch.

I think a Certificate like that of MCSE, or Cisco CCNP would be awesome. I'd definately research it and earn one. The problem would be that those certifications are brand based (Cisco and MS). Who would provide the certificate? It would have to be W3C I guess.

At this point, I'm afraid to charge money for my services because I know I can;t provide what my clients would need for their money. Plus, these companies that charge 50,000 for Websites are just stealing from people. If I charge half that, I know I better build a kick-ass Website.

Unfortunately, many firms and individuals don't think that way.

[sta12s]

First off my name is Sarah and it's great to read all the opinions on here. I've been making pages since the good o'll days of gopher ... rofl ... back then my "web design software" was text edit ;)

Anyhoos, I agree with KDLA that WYSIWYG should die. I only use dreamweaver to see what I'm coding as I'm coding, and to jump to my sections of code faster.

As far as what a web design should know ... that's a really good question;
1. *Valid* HTML (DUH) and CSS
2. Graphics
3. A solid web.lang to build on (if you know one, you can move on to another with ease)
4. Marketing Knoweldge
5. Flash

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is the fact that websites are a form of online marketing. When I go in to meet with a client I always get directed to the IT team - that's great, but where is the marketing team? What are the specific goals of this website? How will they be messured? Most the time I'll get an answer like "How many hits we get" or "How many items are sold" - that's great, but just because you get a hit doesn't mean you're going to get a repeat hit, same for selling an item - if someone doesn't have a good time at your site, they're not going to come back. So I agree that a "Web Designer" should have the knowedge to put in metatags (lol) and enough sense to code in maner that someone else can glance @ the code and read it easly, but at the same time you have to have some marketing sense too - and some common sense wouldn't hurt either ;)

[dmcv.co.uk]

OK this should be split

What a Web DESIGNERshould know? & What a Web DEVELOPER Should Know?

I keep trying to bring this to peoples attention there is a great difference between able to Design a great looking & usable site & Coding it up!

www.dmcv.co.uk/test << example of great design skills code is shoddy but works

Dave

[wamboid]

OK this should be split

What a Web DESIGNERshould know? & What a Web DEVELOPER Should Know?

I keep trying to bring this to peoples attention there is a great difference between able to Design a great looking & usable site & Coding it up!

www.dmcv.co.uk/test << example of great design skills code is shoddy but works

Dave
No matter how much you want to argue it, I don't really think it matters whether you are right or wrong. In a vast majority of the places it would matter, where a site is being built, they are one and the same person or a team of people with the same skills.

[dmcv.co.uk]

A Designer Designs the concepts & converts them into template form... A coder is not so conserned with the look of the design aspecialy when handed a design & told to build it more ofthen than not they will code it & the look will be altered...

Most small companies i no have want a Developer not a designer

Bigger companys can have more staff so have specialsed coders & Designers they do not coss platforms they stick to there areas only.......

Dave

[sta12s]

What a Web DESIGNERshould know? & What a Web DEVELOPER Should Know?


Designer
1. Color Schemes
2. Graphics
3. Marketing
4. *VALID* HTML and CSS
5. Enough PHP to develop scripts for simple mai forms; etc
6. Some Flash (and continue to build skills)

Developer
1. HTML and CSS and XHTML
2. PHP
3. JavaScript
4. SQL, ASP.NET
5. ColdFusion

Seriously, if all designers could tag team a project with a developer (and visa vera) we'd have a perfect "on the wire" world ... LOL

Until then, keep learning!

Shout out to DMCV, your new site is awesome! GREAT use of color and images. I turned green with envy when I saw that sweetheart, keep up the good skills

Focker OUT

[KDLA]

sta125 - you're right about marketing. Thank goodness, at my agency, they had the forethought to put the web designer job in the Communications office, rather that in tech.

dmcv - In most cases, a designer and developer are the same person. In my consulting, as well as general networking with peers, it's rare to find the process broken into coding vs. designing. I'm sure many big corporations do that, but in my land of Non-profits and government agencies, a designer is a generic word describing all sorts of "other duties as assigned."

Then, too, most organizations do not understand the differences. If you say you can do web stuff, they assume it all. As such, web jobs are created with a "one person fits all" mentality.

To Brian -- Charge minimally for your services. The payment keeps your "clients" from taking advantage of you, and also propels you to do a really good job. You can use the money to buy books, take night classes, whatever, to make you feel more confident about your skills.

KDLA

[dmcv.co.uk]

That is part of the problem... thinking that 1 person can do it all genraly ends up with a coder who thinks he can desigm & i think this need working on! a Designer is a specalist same as a Developer is a Specalist. They should not be 1 in the same.

Maybe i'm coming from the wrong end of the tree here as i have been in the industry for a few years & seem to have a different view on this to most...

sta12s - Thanks for the compliments. my services are avalible to on freelance...! LOL

Dave

[sta12s]

thinking that 1 person can do it all genraly ends up with a coder who thinks he can design

Sooo true ... just because you're really good at coding doesn't' mean you know anything about site navigation, being "user friendly", colors, images, and all the other elements thant make up the end user's experiance.

Also, it's true visa versa ... just because you know about the above doesn't mean you know the first thing about a vaid <BODY> versous <body> tag ... LOL ... no names mentioned ... {me} RDRR ... ;)

Also, if you have NO SENSE OF HUMOR, don't respond to the <BODY> tag ... it's joke people!

[Snitchcat]

Sooo true ... just because you're really good at coding doesn't' mean you know anything about site navigation, being "user friendly", colors, images, and all the other elements thant make up the end user's experiance.

Lol! I do agree that a good programmer doesn't always know anything about good design:

I've met some good programmers. But when it comes to user logic... put it this way, when a company's techs talk to the client's techs, no designer (or marketing) involved, the client will explode about the site -- why is it so illogical and difficult to navigate?! (One reason: the techs thought that that was the best way to be user-friendly.)

I've also seen the designers come up with some great visual work. However, they were warned not to make things too complicated and keep it so that the pages could be sliced, or easily divided into elements. Without programmer interference, they had to undo it all when it came to actual coding -- several hours / days of wasted work.

However, I still maintain you can be good at both coding and designing -- it just takes time and effort.

[dmcv.co.uk]

Well i'm a designer with code experiance! i have learnt css & abit of php recently. but i have always designed my sites thinking of how they would be sliced up for code!

That should be part of a designs role anyway!

dave

[KDLA]

Which do you think is easier: designing (creatively) or coding?

Do you think that has an impact on the way that designers/coders are thought of in the web "designer" community?

[dmcv.co.uk]

Thats a difficult question mate cuz neather are easy! Designin sites to a high standard took awhile for me to get to, same as coding a site to a good standard would take time for a good coder! neather is easy!

[wamboid]

Check out this thread (http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100269) in Website Reviews for an example of what started this rant. FrontPage junk from a supposed professional company.

[KDLA]

Here's the one that sent me over the edge, causing my rant: link (http://ibcfrankfort.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=FaithHighway/10000/3000/611IM/home)

This is my church's site, supposedly designed and maintained by a "well-respected" company. Next week, it is being handed to me. I get to go through the horrific (I dare you to look at it!) coding and decide what to salvage.

KDLA

[dmcv.co.uk]

ha ha ha GOOD LUCK.... may god have mercy on ur soul... ;)

[sta12s]

Good luck KDLA, that's crazy code!!!

[wamboid]

Nasty stuff KDLA. I'll be doing the same for my church starting next week. Fortunately, it was just a church member with MS Publisher working on it so they hadn't shelled out any money. She's giving everything she has so far to me this Sunday.

[KDLA]

MS Publisher = the evil step-sister of MS Front Page

:eek:

Good Luck -
KDLA

[wamboid]

MS Publisher = the evil step-sister of MS Front Page

:eek:

Good Luck -
KDLA
lol Never heard it put that way, but soooo true.

[NogDog]

Which do you think is easier: designing (creatively) or coding?

Do you think that has an impact on the way that designers/coders are thought of in the web "designer" community?
Programming is easier for me than design, simply because that is what I know how to do. I think I have a decent eye for visual design and can recognize a visually well executed site, but I have no training on how to go from a general idea of what I want to present content-wise to the right layout with the proper colors, images, proportions, white-space, etc. to best convey that (nor does it seem to come naturally to me); plus I have very limited experience with the tools.

On the other hand, if you tell me you need a script to take the input from a HTML form, update a database based on its inputs, and generate an automated email based on the results of that action, just give me an hour or two. Or give me a high-res image file of a web page design, and I'll come up with the HTML mark-up and CSS to implement it. Just don't ask me to create that initial image - I'll leave that to the expert graphic designers. :)

[JayM]

I used to look at 3d models and think that is impossible to do. I thought you had to be gifted to be able to create visually appealing models such as cars. Pick up a copy of 3ds and Lynda.com tutorial and you'll be surprised how easy it is. I have been recently exposed to the world of 3d thanks to my new job, and I have to say with a little practise it's possible to create more appealing 3d models than the typical 2d photoshop material. Perhaps I will post my work in the website reviews forum once its finished.

[dmcv.co.uk]

Its good to get the guys feed back here on ur website!

will look forward to the site

Dave

[KDLA]

Yeah. I'm looking forward to trying to integrate art into website design. We'll look forward to seeing your designs, JayM.
I, too, would always marvel at the wonderful digital artwork out there and be just awestruck at how you go about doing that with photoshop and a mouse. But then, I learned about those WACOM tablets. The difference seems to be going from cave drawings to Degas.

To me, you have to have an artistic bent, supplemented by "coding education" to be a good web designer. If you notice, many of the designs submitted to this forum tend to look the same. It might be "cut and paste" plagarism, but you'd think their would be SOME integration of original ideas. Maybe it's that "make it quick, simple, and up on the web in one day" impetus, but it sure doesn't provide any inspiration to those visiting the forum for ideas, or the viewers out there wanting websites they can remember. So, to me, you have to have some sort of artistic vision to be a good designer.

KDLA

[JayM]

If you notice, many of the designs submitted to this forum tend to look the same.

Exactly, KDLA. I always see similar designs. Blog-like looking websites. I wouldn't say it's plagerism, but more like routine. Seems like we've gotten used to the same designs. I think it's essential that you put a lot of originality in your work because clients who know nothing about coding will be judging you by your artistic work. It's sad but it's the truth. You can be a very experienced coder, but if you can't produce an aesthetically pleasing website, you probably won't attract a lot of potential clients.

On a side note, since this is a web designer rant, I have come across a dilemma. Since the relaunch of my web development site is near, I started planning my SEO strategies. I decided to check out my competition by googling local web developement companies. The first company that came up in the search seemed like a reputable company. They clearly understand what they're doing. I decided to take a look at the coding, only to notice they use a lot of black-hat seo tricks. In a sense, I was sort of angry because this gives them an unfair advantage over other sites (such as mine) who "follow the rules". So I contacted them and told them how I feel and asked nicely that they change this and make it fair for everyone. Their response? They completely denied using any sort of illegal methods (even hidden text boxes!!) and refused to change anything in their code.

One part of me is telling me to report them and have them banned. But the other part tells me these people (judging by their huge portfolio) use this as their main source of income and reporting them could kill their business.
What would you do in this situation?

[johneva]

Report them, if they have used black hat on there own site then they will be doing the same for there clients too. By doing this they dont deserve an SEO business cos they are not doing there job correctly anyways. What about all there clients that end up getting banned because the SEO company did not do there job propley?

You say they have a huge portfolio so then they have already ripped off to many people.

There are to many of these SEO companys that promise the world and they use black hat techniques in order to get the target they set and guarantee.

It annoys me when you see these SEO companys guaranteeing search engine positions anyways, cos you just carnt do that you dont have enough control to be able to make them guarantee's. I have had exellent results on the sites I have worked on but I would never guarantee results in the top ten within two months (As most SEO comanys do) cos you carnt. All I guarantee is that I will do my best.

Report them.

[KDLA]

I'd look at the sites in their portfolio. If they're anything like the web designer's original site (which they usually are - a basic template the company has designed then customized for any client who comes along), they'll have the same black hat tricks. Alert the customers, see what happens. Granted 80% won't care -- it's all about having a website, not following a standard -- but at least the remaining 20% might stir up enough trouble to make a difference.

KDLA

[JayM]

I inspected 10 of their clients sites. 9 out of 10 of use black hat tricks. :rolleyes:

[wamboid]

I try to follow the policy of not worrying about what other companies are doing and concentrate on doing my own work well. If they are breaking the rules, they should get caught and will probably get banned eventually. As far as their clients, if they aren't getting a quality product from the company, then they are fair game to become your future clients. Especially if that company or any of their clients get banned, showing that to their other clients should make them turn to you.