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View Poll Results: Should I talk about Transitional and Frameset HTML?

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  • Yes! They're still completely relevant.

    7 41.18%
  • No! Beginners should never hear about them.

    1 5.88%
  • Hold your nose and confess your sins, so that others don't make the same mistake.

    9 52.94%
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Thread: Should I teach frames?

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  1. #1
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    Should I teach frames?

    You may know that I'm working on an HTML tutorial, and once I'm done Objects, the only HTML I have left to talk about is Transitional and Frameset.

    The question is: should I?

  2. #2
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    Well yes, but with a strict warning. Also I think iFrames still have some place in modern web-development, so it's not good to leave them out entirely.
    Great wit and madness are near allied, and fine a line their bounds divide.

  3. #3
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    I would suggest a "Deprecated Features" chapter with just a brief description of things like frames and <font> tags, with a note on what should be used instead, possibly explaining why they were deprecated, and a link to the applicable section of the w3c spec should the reader want to learn more about them.
    "Please give us a simple answer, so that we don't have to think, because if we think, we might find answers that don't fit the way we want the world to be."
    ~ Terry Pratchett in Nation

    eBookworm.us

  4. #4
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    Strictly speaking, and there is no other way to speak, I don't think that frames have been depricated. They're a bit icky but to each his own.
    “The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect.”
    —Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Strictly speaking, and there is no other way to speak, I don't think that frames have been depricated. They're a bit icky but to each his own.
    This is true. <font> and <center>, for example, are officially deprecated in the spec. <frame> is not, and is only "pseudo-deprecated" in some peoples' minds (specifically, mine ).

    That being the case, if the intent of your book is to be comprehensive with regards to all of HTML, then frames do not belong in a chapter called "Deprecated Features" or such and deserve some attention (with relevant caveats).
    "Please give us a simple answer, so that we don't have to think, because if we think, we might find answers that don't fit the way we want the world to be."
    ~ Terry Pratchett in Nation

    eBookworm.us

  6. #6
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    I've never used frames for my website, but after all I've heard about them, I stay away from them like I have a phobia. One time, I looked at a piece of development software that would have completely fixed a problem I was having. But, I found out it generated iframe code, and thus I decided against the purchase (though iframes IS probably better than standard frames). I would include them in the book, but just be careful to mention all of the pros and cons thoroughly.

    My $0.02

  7. #7
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    There are still times when frames are useful and relevant. I know more than a few intranets make use of them.

    Just don't devote too much time to them and be clear that divs and other means can often be used to duplicate or mimic the intended visual if not functional effects.

  8. #8
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    Although frames are not deprecated they are horribly inaccessible and should be treated with contempt. There is only one document type one should be using for production code and that is strict whether using HTML 4.01 or xHTML 1.x; both these specifications prohibit the use of iframes and favour the object tag instead. I would stress the use of divs with overflow:scroll instead of frames, iframes and objects.
    Last edited by Scriptage; 03-19-2009 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #9
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    Future browser versions are not required to support deprecated features (that is what deprecated means).
    Stephen

  10. #10
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    I should point out that I intend for this to be the absolute last part of my book, after CSS and Javascript (should I talk about Javascript).

  11. #11
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    FRAMEs are as perfectly accessible as TABLEs; it's all in how they are implimented. Spend some time with Lynx and you'll find that in some ways a site with navigation and content in separate frames is easier and more commodious than one with the same long list of links along the top of page of the site. There are enough real rules without us going on and making new ones.
    “The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect.”
    —Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web

  12. #12
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    Yeah they are accessible as long as the user doesn't disable them. If the content should be displayed on the same page what is wrong with using a div with overflow:scroll?

    easier and more commodious than one with the same long list of links along the top of page of the site.
    If one uses CSS then a semantic document structure, under any circumstance is achievable:

    Header information
    (Skip to content, Skip to Navigation)

    Content

    Navigation

    If someone can turn them off then why bother? At least if someone turns CSS off the document will still make sense and still be very much usable.

  13. #13
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    There was a website I used to visit a long time ago that used frames. From what I remember, I didn't like how frames worked. Navigating around the site was more difficult than it had to be. But still, I have never coded frames personally. Maybe that site's developer coded it poorly, which then caused the navigation to be annoying?

  14. #14
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    What I hate is that you cannot bookmark the page, that's one reason I abhor frames. Other than that, I find them ok, but I prefer using a div and CSS to pretend there are frames.
    Great wit and madness are near allied, and fine a line their bounds divide.

  15. #15
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    With the FRAMESET disabled you just toggle between the different frames and all is well.
    “The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect.”
    —Tim Berners-Lee, W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web

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