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Thread: Is wordpress a dirty word?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Tampa, Florida

    Interestingly enough, I'm coming back to web dev from a different but related direction. I've hand coded forever, but when speed is an issue i always appreciated WYSIWYG editors, even if the code they generated was ugly.

    But I'm also a programmer among other things, that has recently been laid off. As it turns out I have some savings and don't need to panic, and would like to try to market some of my inventions. Well, as i'd like to spend the bulk of my time on the actual development of those projects, I thought maybe I'd give myself a break from hand coding and see whats out there to make life easier. I started the wordpress thread because it also seemed to me everyone was going that way, but rapidly became disillusioned. I'm also investigating Joomla, whijh looks good, but I'm just not getting a "warm fuzzy" about it. After some weeks futzing, this is what i conclude now, and bear in mind my opinions are changing daily right now, so don't HOLD me to any of this...

    1) First of all, it does not seem to me that any CMS system will save me time. At least not initially. A WYSIWYG editor MIGHT save me some time, but maybe not so much a CMS. because while they will create a site rather quickly, I find myself endlessly trying to get pages to look as i want them too, switching themes and then ending up wanting to change things the theme or template never exposed for me to change. I really got quickly tired of fining that "bacground color" never changed the background of the area I wanted to change, and dozens of things like that plagued me. In the end I wasted days and got nowhere but to the "compromising". On the other hand, ans a hand coder of a page or template, I know exactly what to do in these cases. Why? Because the code is MINE. Good luck picking through the CSS files of a computer generate theme or template. You can, but don't count on it saving time!

    2) While I still will consider a WYSIWYG editor for quick and dirty page content, maybe even some simple "restaurant" style sites, or if I need to compose a temporary page for an e-bay add. But I've come full circle and right now, it seems my time is far better spent refining the skills I already have as a hand coder. CSS has come a long way. Javascript is getting more cross compatible and less frustrating as the DOMs have gotten a bit more standardized. AJAX has apparently made interfacing with a database very easy (though I've only scratched the surface there). And there's tones of free tutorials on line for anything new or improving. Plus, tons of free online tools to generate page features like CSS or javascript based navigation menus and such. And since I get to paste the code right into my own templates and page code, I'm learning more in each afternoon then I ever would have using tools that insulate me from the code.

    3) If I need to start churning out sites as a paid service, I probably will start use a CMS tool. That way I'll learn on somebody else's dime. I may even use one for a section or area of my own sites eventually. But what someone told me earlier in this forum is absolutely true... the more I can bring to the table improving my ability to work with HTML, CSS, and Javascript, the better I'll be in the long run. At least if I do need to pick through some computer generated style sheets in the future, when I DO start using an CMS, I will have a LOT better chance of getting the affect I want.

    4) If YOU are good at graphics and layout, I can almost guarantee your sites will look better than other peoples, regardless of what tools they use. No, everybody is NOT an artist, no more than "Guitar hero" and Kerioke made everyone a musician (LO!). But... if you think any of these CMS tools are going to give you the layout freedom you probably insist on, you're going to be tearing out lots of hair and cursing at your screen a LOT. I know I was! There are some good layout tools that give you all the freedom you want, but I'm still looking for that, and I suspect I'm going to have to PAY a LOT for anything really good.

    Good luck. Since you have graphic and layout skills, I may want you you to look at some of the pages I'm working on at the moment. At least I'll be able to fix things that could be improved, because the problems won't be burried in some huge chunk of computer generated code! :-)
    Randy (PeterPan)
    * * *
    * *
    ... Second Star to the Right, and Straight on Till Morning!
    * * *

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Hey Randy, thanks for your comments. And I thought MY last post was long winded

    Interesting reading though, and I would like to give a response that is worthy but I've had a few too many beers and it's 11.40pm now here in Melbourne Oz after a nice day of 32deg C (90F). That's my excuse for the drinking nice cold beer, and i'm sticking to it.!! You are in Florida US? - Not too cold where you are I hope. I heard on the news that you guys are getting a bit a cold battering?

    Anyway, a few things I will say is that from what you have said, you certainly have more coding skills than I do - good - use them to earn cash if you can.

    But if I asked you what you 'really' would love to do? I reckon you've answered that by your comments...
    try to market some of my inventions
    Sounds like you have some ideas, and a plan. Better to have ideas (whether fruitful or not) than to just plod along with the mundane 'half measures' just to earn a buck.

    And another thing... (gee, I reckon that last beer is really kicking in ) When you talk about design, and perhaps I could give you a few pointers, well perhaps I could, but most of it is not relevant anymore. I was never a 'great' designer, but I have a solid understanding of 'effective' design.

    ie. I know what things looks nice together - that includes typography and images, colour and 'white space', placement, symetry & weight etc... But they are on a 'static' page.!!! Those rules no longer apply to web pages because things move! that's the nature of it.

    With a 'static' page you can create something that has 'balance' and is pleasing to the eye - and therefore more likely to be read! That is the whole point of it - "READ", whether from print or web - Isn't it?? We want people to look, read and be comfortable enough to 'stay', look, buy, whatever. But you cannot apply the same design standards to web design, and that's a bit hard for me to accept at the moment. Page elements can move, change and all those interesting and important 'focal' features are lost.

    So I'm 'ranting' again, oh well, hopefully this last little piece will make you guys laugh.

    Back in the day when you manually created a 'printed page' you went to bed very secure in the knowledge that when you woke up, it was as you left it - but imagine for a moment that you go into your workplace and look at your page and exclaim "Oh my God!!, it's all reverted to the fallback font! and that image wasn't there yesterday, it was over there!".

    You would have been quickly dragged out, and probably still kicking and screaming "I tell you, it was Lucida Bright, but now it's Times New Roman!!!"

    Funny maybe, but that IS the reality that we/I have to accept. Loss of control.

    Anyway, I'm done.
    Cheers, Steve.
    In the process of learning: HTML5, CSS3 and JavaScript.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Tampa, Florida
    ROLF!!!! Too funny!

    Well I wish for me it was as simple as just wanting to sell a few products. The fact is, I'm in a fortunate place right now. I lost my job last year, that's not so good, and I'm still 6 years from my target retirement date. But, I'm fortunate that my dwelling is paid off, expenses are relatively low, and I've been relentlessly saving. So all that to say, if I was content with just a little beyond austerity, I could retire now.

    I don't WANT to retire now, but then again I do have projects I'd like to finish and attempt to market. I'm also a musician, and though none of my tunes have gone "viral", they are getting attention, and I'd also consider starting a cover band and giving lessons via skype. There are a lot of things I can do to make money, and as it turns out I'm pretty sure I'll always have a few people asking for websites too. So while I'm doing my own, I'm re-sharpening my skills... at least my non-CMS skills anyway. Who knows... maybe now that i can get health care i can afford, I can take a real stab at being in business for myself!

    back on the thread subject, my opinion now is that if I'm going to do a site where there is going to be rapidly changing content, then yes... I'd better wake up and smell the coffee and get proficient at an SMS environment. I might have said that I have a friend leaning me toward Joomla, who has offered some free help getting started, so I'll likely take him up on it.

    BUT... there are a lot of arguments going for every subject from websites to graphic formats, that basically say "oh that's old hat... you're in the stone age... this is the way we do it now". Well it was one of those arguments that compelled me to consider ditching hand coding and come over to a CMS system for everything. I've since gotten over that compulsion ;-).

    For a lot of applications, static pages are fine, and if you're not averse to a little javascript coding (or a client is willing to pay for it), and some of the newer tricks you can do with CSS, there are a lot of things we can do to make a page at least seem at least a little more dynamic. And from what I can see, AJAX may make it plausable to easily update content from a database too. OK, thats as sophisticated as pages all served by a PHP core of code, but its still very powerful and worth my time to learn.

    The bottom line though is still is content. I have one website I started back in 2001, which despite constant criticism to this day entertained over 12 million visitors, won me a webby award (not to mention a lot of notoriety), and enabled me to raise over $10K for kids charities over that time. Its a terrible hodgepodge of scattered HTML, CSS, and javascript, with multiple navigation aids all over the place, and a lot of content you have to dig for. All in all, it breaks tons of rules, and now its in need of some HTML5 updates to make the videos and MP3s work across more device platforms. BUT... it taught me a lot, served its purpose, and still is doing a great service to both myself and visitors. Despite all the "layout" critiques, even to the point where one student told me the site was used as an example of how NOT to do a site in class (LOL), the fact is the content is what made it work.

    Its kind of like the case of two websites for two restaurants, where the first one all the bells and whistles of a Facebook page, while the second had just a menu and phone number. The first got rave reviews from web critics, while the second was considered a business that was doomed to fail. BUT.. the food in the first place was total crap, while the food in the place with the crappy site was excellent. now guess which restaurant closed, and which one is thriving! :-)

    Hey I just finished my "Form Mail" page... I think that deserves a beer too!
    Randy (PeterPan)
    * * *
    * *
    ... Second Star to the Right, and Straight on Till Morning!
    * * *

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    I don't know where to ask this question but you seem Very spaceknowledgeable so I'll throw it out and see in which direction you point me… Destiny Media has a product, the newer version of ClipStream, and it is supposed to be marketed initially to web developers. Have you ever heard of it and can comment?

    These are the problems and these are the solutions that Clipstream supposedly offers:

    Problem 1
    There is no standard format for streaming video on the Internet. To reach all browsers, publishers have to convert into several formats including: WebM, Ogg Theora, H.264, H.265 and Flash. This transcoding process is costly and it means storage and data center costs are much higher.

    Clipstream® plays instantly on all modern browsers and devices including computers, smart phones, tablets, e-readers and Internet enabled TV's. Viewers don't have to install or maintain plug-in player software.

    Problem 2
    None of these formats are widely adopted. On desktops, none of the replacements for Flash reach more than 2/3 of the audience.*
    *WebM: 54.32%
    H.264: 63.43%
    H.265: 0%
    Ogg Theora: 50.22%

    Adobe announced that Flash would no longer support mobile. and Apple will not support Flash on IOS devices.

    Because there are no plug-ins for users to maintain or upgrade, content owners will be able to reach all HTML 5 compliant browsers.

    Problem 3
    Streaming generally requires streaming servers and to reach a large audience, content delivery networks. More than half of all data transferred on the Internet is video and video data transfer is growing at 48% per year.

    Because there is no streaming server and because the content caches, Clipstream® allows publishers to host content directly on their own web servers rather than outsourcing. HTTP caching can recycle streams allowing loads to be reduced by up to 99% for popular content.

    Problem 4
    HTML 5 video tag formats are unprotected and videos can easily be copied and shared.

    Clipstream® encoded videos can be watermarked and locked to only play from authorized source websites or to authorized viewer computers.

    Problem 5
    With other solutions, videos become obsolete over time, as new formats replace old ones. The new H.265 format isn't compatible with any existing web browser and is intended to phase out old videos encoded in H.264.

    Clipstream® encoded videos will have extreme longevity as all future web browsers will be required to be backwards compatible with the technologies behind it.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Tampa, Florida
    Sound interesting, but a little off topic here Hearty Guy, but I had started a thread about playing media without flash where it might be more appropriate.

    Randy (PeterPan)
    * * *
    * *
    ... Second Star to the Right, and Straight on Till Morning!
    * * *

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    It's far from being limited.

    Wordpress is the standard for most small business websites nowadays. People are used to navigating through a wp structured site.

    Plugins are plenty and many good one's are free.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Thanks Randy, I followed your link to that thread where the question is more pertinent and hope to see some comments there about Clipstream – if people even have heard of it. I'm beginning to think few people have; when I did a search using the keyword on this site I didn't get any results basically.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Tampa, Florida
    @webdesigners: What you say may be true, but if you're not used to it, and ARE used to hand coding static sites, the learning curve for WP is way steeper than advertised. I'm not dissing wordpress, just stating that because of my lack of understanding it, I spent a week just finding a theme "near" what i wanted that also worked in a fair amount of browsers, fighting with PHP problems 9apparently my hosting company's default setting was many versions behind), and in the end had to compromise a great deal on the layout. On the other hand this week, I hand coded a static site with the EXACT look and functionality i want.

    Granted, with time my experience with Wordpress might get me to the point where I can build my own themes, or find themes and plugins to do all that i need. The key phrase though is "with time".

    I'll also say that becoming proficient at hand coding definitely would take 100x longer than using wordpress, if I were starting both with the same level of knowledge. But I'm already pretty used to making my own templates, and I have a site I need to get done for myself in a hurry. So while i thought wordpress would speed the process I now know that it won't. Not without my taking the time to get it under my control. Eventually I will!
    Randy (PeterPan)
    * * *
    * *
    ... Second Star to the Right, and Straight on Till Morning!
    * * *

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Huh well i was looking for any websites or i don't know...anywhere i could find a list or a good source for dirty words? like curses and stuff...or perhaps dirty slangs.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    I don't think so, wordpress is a very helpful platform, its very easy and faster to use.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    I think soo that google love word press

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Sarasota, FL
    WordPress is fabulous for building a site very quickly with almost limitless widgets and plug-ins. No, it's not "easy" - it's not for the "man on the street", but for programmers like you claim to be, it should be a snap.

    Try the Weaver ii theme. With its numerous sub-themes and huge number of options available in the backend, as well as the ability to add custom css, you should be able to build a very usable site. Unless you're aiming for some exclusive out of sight original Picasso website.

    "When I'm building a site with a text editor, and I want (for example) a teal background, you know what I have to do? <body bgcolor="#33cc99"> done! " ... so go the WP backend and find the option that allows you to change the BG and click the box!!!! For that matter go edit the code...You reallly want a teal backgound? Use #008080...#33cc99 is more of a green.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Tampa, Florida
    Thanks PittsburghRed. I think you're right, and I'm digging into Joomla too. I just wasn't used to CMS systems and was fighting with the themes in wordpress, unsure how to locate the CSS elements I was looking to tweak. But I also wasn't used to modern layouts. And of course in CMS systems, the labels and IDs in the CSS files aren't always very human readable. Fortunately I'm seeing that Firefox pretty much lets me locate any element, and anything that affects it, almost immediately. So that's giving me a little more of a "warm fuzzy".

    BUT... I still see that working effectively with wordpress or joomla takes more time commitment than I originally thought. So I've decided to table both for now, at least until the products I'm looking to finish and market are ready for sale. Then, with my mind centered on sales and presentation, I'll be able to gain ground with whatever tools I use.
    Randy (PeterPan)
    * * *
    * *
    ... Second Star to the Right, and Straight on Till Morning!
    * * *

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Hey man Wordpress is considered to be the Oldest most successful CMS every one would like to have a website at. With over 99 percent of things tried and managed through wordpress CMS only for any requirements.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Dubai, UAE
    Believe it or not but Wordpress is a very simple, very very powerful and very user friendly web development platform and tool. i develop websites in wordpress and we know its worth.

    Web Design Dubai

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